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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 235
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 6:16 pm: | 
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Dearest Caz...
All good questions...In fact you may be able to help me out with this question...
I e-mailed the London Hospital to find out if the Currie Ward was attached to the main building of the London Hospital back in 1888.
Maybe they have to sort their e-mails or didn't care to reply,as I asked on Saturday night after Roger brought it up.
Help your buddy out and please find out for me...please contact 'em if you would.
Thank you...
How |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 309
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 9:39 pm: |
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Caz and Jennifer,
Theoretically, D'Onston would deposit his organs at his 'bolthole' before returning to the hospital, if he returned to the hospital at all that night. As a self-administered patient, he could check himself out whenever he liked, and as such, could presumably come and go as he liked. His bed was paid for either way and his treatment would be minimal. No doubt he told people in the hospital that he had another residence that he would check on/spend time at. As for his being absent on the nights of the Ripper crimes, this would not seem too suspicious had he been absent other nights as well, which one would suspect.
My feelings regarding Stead are this: He was a successful journalist and had a strong suspicion against D'Onston. It's difficult to believe he did not put that suspicion to the test during the year and a half he suspected him. By this I mean check to see if D'Onston was absent on some or all of the Ripper murders. By the same token, D'Onston's absences may not have been registered. But back to Stead, had something presented itself to him that showed D'Onston could NOT have been the Ripper, then it's doubtful he would have held onto the theory quite so long.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 3:23 am: |
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Hi all,
Just to say that although D'Onstons letter of 16th October gives his address as Currie Wards, the hospital register and his statement to Roots both place him in the Davis ward.
David |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1300
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 9:49 am: |
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Hi all
In regard to whether D'Onston did leave the hospital on a regular basis, his letter of October 16 to the City of London police gives the impression that he was too sick to leave the hospital at that time. He concludes the body of the letter by saying, "May I request an acknowledgement that this letter has safely reached you, & that it be preserved until I am well enough to do myself the honour to call upon you personally [emphasis mine]." Tom Wescott in his recent article in Ripperologist makes the point that I previously brought up, the significance of the odd word "preserved" that mirrors the "prasarved" in the Lusk ("From Hell") letter delivered to George Lusk that same day, October 16. So the question is, was D'Onston playing cat and mouse with the police, pretending to be the ailing theorymeister while secretly being the very killer he was supposedly trying to help the police catch?
Another piece of the puzzle is that in his anonymously written Pall Mall Gazette article of December 1, D'Onston says that the graffito was found above the body of Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square. Melvin Harris in The True Face of Jack the Ripper suggests that this was a purposeful gaff to throw the police off the scent.
In any case, D'Onston's boozy evenings with George Marsh might suggest he was used to waltzing out of the hospital whenever he desired, in that case building up to the statement he made to Scotland Yard that Dr. Morgan Davies could have been the Ripper on Boxing Day, December 26. The allegation against Davies is at odds with his previous theory, published as recently as three weeks earlier, that the killer was a practitioner of black magic, and in accusing Davies he appears to include Mary Jane Kelly as one of the Ripper victims, whereas he had excluded her murder in the Pall Mall Gazette article.
As I have written before, we have here either a very cunning killer or else merely a confused individual, a chronic alcoholic and dilettante. Certainly the latter view appears to be the way Inspector Roots was inclined to characterize him -- or is that exactly how D'Onston wished the authorities to view him?
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 529
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Melvin H. cited the case of 'the Elephant Man', claiming that Merrick was allowed to roam about the grounds of the Hospital at night. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 2:05 pm: |
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I post this thread for the third time, in fervent prayer that it will not be deleted in the queue as have been the previous. I come to save the unwary and absolve the wicked.
Suspect-based Ripperology is inherently false. All candidates for Jack the Ripper, I say all ever proposed, are pookahs. D'Onston, Druitt, Kosminski, Sickert and the all rest. When we overcome our need for a supernatural form on which to focus our intentions, when we no longer need our dolly to dress and care for to represent our fundamental instncts to us, then we can assert ourselves rationally in the case evidence for the first time.
Abandon false hope! Time is short! |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 236
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 9:30 pm: |
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Its good to see all the responses...we even have the Billy Sunday of Ripperology aboard....anyone else need their soul saved?
C.G..Your last paragraph "As I have written before, we have here either a very cunning killer or else merely a confused individual, a chronic alcoholic and dilettante. Certainly the latter view appears to be the way Inspector Roots was inclined to characterize him -- or is that exactly how D'Onston wished the authorities to view him? " says it all...
Jack...I neglected to post the questions,as you observed. The questions were whether after reading one of the books on this suspect did Dr.Perlmutter have any opinions based on her experience with occult/ritualism that would indicate to her that there was any validity to the claims in that specific book regarding the distances between the first 4 canonical victims...the removal of organs...and another "general" question which covered some occult-related issues.
Granted, Dr.Perlmutter as well as Dr. Cyril Wecht,were not well versed in Ripperological matters. I asked both of them and continue to communicate with them for their expertise in matters relevant to the case. I understand your personal dissatisfaction with experts,not only in "our thing"..but at times in other fields of endeavor.
Nevertheless,the idea that D'onstonites are a cadre of belligerent folks can easily be dispelled by the post of Mr. Knott above,whom I believe,has added to the general knowledge of RDS and is an underrated contributor to the continuing research into the man. His post offers the insight that RDS may very well have lied that by stating he was in the Currie Ward. Looks objective to me.
...and once again, I agree that your arguments in the post above this one are very valid ones. No condescension...no bullshit. They are good ones. Maybe even the correct ones..The age..the overkill at Kelly's..the likelihood of him NOT being in Currie Ward..argumentum ad homina homina homina [ thats one Billy Sunday forgot..the Ralph Kramden Argument.]
Now...don't take this the wrong way,my friend...in Ripperology as in many discussions where the outcome is unclear [ as with us all...no definitive unimpeachable suspect ],those who fancy or favor or promote the idea that,as in this case,a viable suspect,appears to them to be "in the lead", those who remain either on the fence or have no opinion or as you stated in your case, just enjoy "rattling other people's theories" or in fact,remain objective, are in the catbird's seat. There's nothing for them to prove. Thats the way it should remain. Anyone who is too fatheaded to NOT consider that their "preferred suspect" isn't up to snuff isn't really doing the scholarship in the case any good.
Over at the Forums,we have a competition that PAYS people such as yourself,who have viable ideas,for their opinions. A couple of people so far have "won' and have been asked by magazines to re-print their "winning" articles. Neither one is a "D'onstonite". I,a D'onstonite,PAY for them. So the argument that most of us are bellicose can't really be true.
Finally...keep up the good fight against D'onston,my man...Meanwhile some of us are continuing to do what we intended to do regarding him...Prove him guilty and if information exists to COMPLETELY exonerate him once and for all,we'll let you know.
...back to the thread.
Your pal as always...
How |
AIP
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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A few observations. Although I might agree with a few of 'Jack Green's' comments some of his remarks are a bit odd. I thought that all so-called experts were also human beings, obviously he thinks not.
It is something of a generalization to dismiss all expert commentary as 'worthless'. If someone cites expert opinion then it must be judged on its own merit according to the question in hand.
There is no question that D'Onston is a valid suspect, however, there may be a question mark over some of the 'evidence' concocted by those
who push the case against him.
There is no hard evidence about a ritual aspect to the murders - it's all speculation and opinion, usually uninformed.
A question - which of the witnesses definitely saw the Ripper? That is, if you are going to use a witness description to dismiss a particular suspect.
Just about every Ripper theory involves its own 'leaps of faith' and 'assumptions', so what's the big difference in any of the others as compared with D'Onston.
There is more than one case against D'Onston, of which do you speak? |
Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 4:14 am: |
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Howard thanks for the reply, (I hope you noticed my two posts were put up ass backwards, no doubt some trick of the moderator designed to encourage us non-registereds to register).
Now you have gone and taken all of the wind out of my sails by agreeing that I ‘could’ am right. Bad form old chap. Fight me!
No seriously I agree as a ‘fence sitter’ I have the easiest road of all (apart from the splinters in my arse) I can sit here and say to theorists and champions of one fellow or another ‘Come on impress me’. Yet there is no compunction in return for me to impress you, what can I say it’s a buyers market!
Dealing with a crime this old the chances of finding ‘proof’ is about zero, so all we are going to have left in the end are never ending arguments like this. Even when proof is found to exonerate a suspect, like perhaps it can be show that Sickert was in France during the autumn of 88, people will still argue that ‘its not impossible that….’ And come up with some way that Walter could have been in London at the right time. And I suspect if ‘proof’ were found that RDS couldn’t have been the killer, you and your friends would soon have some sort of way around it. Lets face it the guy already has a fairly good alibi i.e. that he was rather ill in Hospital at the time, and don’t forget the police questioned him at least once about the killings and found his account of himself satisfactory. Part of their investigation no doubt would have been to see how likely it was that he could come and go whenever he pleased and we can only assume that they found it unlikely. (Mind you, you know what ‘assume’ makes don’t you?)
Your friendly and gentlemanly response has proved me wrong about one thing and pleas don’t think I paint all RDSists with the same brush. But you KNOW whom I am talking about.
All the best
(Saucy) Jack Green
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Jeff Flowers
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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Being a doctor himself, I guess Donston could have left the hospital whenver he pleased without drawing any objections from the staff. As far as his matching up with the descriptions, what were they? A man between 5'5" tall and 5'10", either powerful or weak, beard and moustache or not, rough-sounding or respectable voice, etc. Personally, I'm not sure anyone saw the actual killer, not even Schwartz. D'onston is as good a suspect as any. Which isn't saying much |
Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 4:53 am: |
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By the way Howard, I would love to hear more about your father’s involvement in the space programme. Now that is something to be very proud of.
JG
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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Hi Jeff
And especially since D'Onston if we believe some of the black magic tales could make himself invisible perhaps his height was immaterial. No wonder no one ever saw the killer.... 
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 238
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 7:22 pm: |
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You forget the rimshot,C.G. ! Thats a good one.....................................
Before I forget,I want to mention to Mr.Radka that my reference to him as being similar to Billy Sunday was in a non-nasty tone. It just looked like a sermon thats all...I know Dave knows we are all chewing the fat...In fact I owe him a favor for his correcting a miscon I had from the other day...
Anyway...Jack, my dad was a proofreader at Chrysler Huntsville [Ala.] for schematics on the Saturn V rocket back in the 60's...He didn't talk much about it and had some D'onstonian qualities which I'll skip over at the moment. Thanks for asking.
Jack...Its quite possible that some folks DO want a suspect to fit. I can well imagine the effort of some of the people who have done research and from their perspective and "gut feelings" from all the effort,they could possibly favor a certain person. I think its natural for people,not just posters and writers and even thesis creators to unintentionally "force" things. I know I've done that and I'm sure a lot of people,not all,have too.
Yeah,he's a war horse. In private convo,he's just as questioning of some of the aspects as anyone else. I think the "snubbing" of RDS due to some factors people automatically assume [ oh yeah,I know what that makes us,Jack..]go against the culpability of this guy are what irks him the most. We can probably both agree that he is making an effort where others just dismiss it all together into examining the suspect's possible guilt. That,at least,we owe him. I sure do.
Another thing,I found out that RDS,as David Knott stated above and Ivor himself corroborated tonight, did stay at the Davies Ward. Furthermore,Tyler Hebblewhite,my friend and half-proprietor of the Forums,was told by the people at London Hospital that in their opinion it would have been very difficult for RDS to waltz around the Davies Ward} digs,considering its location. This isn't over yet,Jack,until my fat ass sings. I will now wait to see if Caz heard anything else and then we can,if you are still interested,chew the proverbial cud over whether RDS was slick enough to be able to leave Davies Ward...
I see you tend to believe in the premise that RDS was sick prior to going to the Hospital. Thats cool. Wouldn't you agree with Mr.Harris' points in True Face that to stay at Brighton would have been the best for a man who was ill ?
Your shot,Jack...
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mal x
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 7:06 pm: |
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the ripper murders do indeed fit the VESICA PISCES, and yes any other random points you choose on a map wont..but the important point here, is that other random points will indeed fit other geometric patterns and these can also be interpreted as occultic symbols, i searced on the web and virtually all mathamatical geometric patterns/symbols have occultic/mystical/religeous/pagan interpretations.
all D'onston did was to find out that two circles fitted these murders and then researched the VESICA PISCES.
i tried doing this on AutoCAD, in any five random points; i looked for with careful manipulation, a geometric pattern to fit..the hit rate was about 20 percent.
for the ripper murders this so happens to be the VESICA PISCES, but in a parallel universe it'll be another pattern or no hit at all..
this means a geometric (therefore occult) pattern will be about 1 in 5, these odds aren't convincing enough.
if D'onston was committing murder to fit an occultic symbol why not choose the inverted cross or the pentagram, both of these are way more powerful than the V.P.... |
Jeff Flowers
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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Hey Howard, I grew up in Decatur. Couldn't resist mentioning it |
Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 10:29 am: |
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Hello I’m sorry to post again but I had another reply and it would be rude not to.
AIP, I have been described as a bit odd many times in my life but never when I thought I was being so rational!
My dissatisfaction with expert opinion is very general I agree, and perhaps an oversimplification on my part. The reason I call it worthless is, as anyone who has ever read any theory about anything or ever attended a court case will know, you can find an expert advocate for almost any opinion you care to mention. Both defence and prosecution will have their own ‘expert’ witnesses both highly qualified and both with utterly contrary findings. What are you left with? Nothing more than an opinion.
You don’t need to be an expert to have an opinion. Hell, I have hundreds of opinions, on so many different subjects, very few of which anyone would describe me as an ‘expert’ on. As much as I love and believe in the good of science and research and the like, I don’t actually believe in or trust scientists and researchers. Terrible to be so cynical but there you are.
I like you am cautious when it comes to the evidence of eye witnesses, it’s a given that quite possibly no one saw Jack with any of his victims, but where there are descriptions they are not of someone matching RDS.
Which case against RDS? As I see it I am attempting to address the whole case against RDS. The only facts of which are.
He was there at exactly the right time.
He knew the area.
He was ‘interested’ in the crimes, so interested he inserted himself into the investigation.
Some people who knew his ‘suspected’ him of being involved.
There is also then some peripheral tenuous bunkum about magic symbols and patterns and ‘I am the only one who has EVER looked at a map of Whitechapel’ and high handed statements of that nature, all of which go to prove exactly nothing.
Obviously I agree that all theories in this case need some sort of leap of faith or other, it will never be proven beyond doubt now, and I could spend many a happy hour rattling those other theories, but this is a thread based on RDS and it would seem somewhat churlish to start discussing other suspect here, don’t you agree?
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 9:49 pm: |
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"Its good to see all the responses...we even have the Billy Sunday of Ripperology aboard....anyone else need their soul saved?"
>>Also the Timothy Leary.
Timothy Leary's dead.
No, no no no, he's outside, looking in.
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 243
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
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Aww...Dave ! Here I give you your props and you diss me ! I told you it wasn't meant to be nasty..maybe your post was in queue..c'est la vie...
Jeff...No one "grows up" in Huntsville,so consider yourself lucky you lived in Decatur...By the way..you aren't related to Richmond Flowers are you?
Hi Jack !!!
Thanks for coming back my man....
Here's a list,which I hope Thomas C. or others in the camp of RDS will assist with by adding on their points..
D'ONSTON AS RIPPER...LIST OF POSSIBLE LINKS TO HIS POSSIBLE CULPABILITY..not necessarily in order....
1. Those ties....
2. The PMG article explaining the 2nd of 12 words in the GSG...
3. The trip to London Hospital for an ailment that was better treated in Brighton....
4. The Cremers [via O'Donnell] recollections...
5. Collins' fears as described by Cremers...
6. The interest in necromancy,beginning at age 18,which remained in tact 30 years after inception...
For me,Jack,these are pretty decent reasons to pursue a line of inquiry on RDS....
....where's Wescott?
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 441
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 7:11 pm: |
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Howard,
Richard Flowers -- one heck of a track athlete!
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 245
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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He sure was Donald ! He pi**ed a lot of people of by going to U.T. to play football...and not 'Bama.
By the way,kudos for a great story in R.N. ! |
Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 8:17 am: |
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Howard, how are you? Hope you had a good weekend.
I think there are two cases both of which need to be strong before we can consider DRS as being a likely Ripper.
Firstly, a case has to be made that the Killings were indeed Ritual and/or Occult. Secondly, there has to be a case against RDS himself.
To me, neither case is a strong one; it can fall down in so many places that I am just uncomfortable placing any belief in it.
Those ties....
The ties, I forgot about them. Surely, that story is apocryphal. It really does just sound like a ‘story’ and in the original story wasn’t there specifically seven ties? Sounds like more of that Hollywood glamorising to me.
The PMG article explaining the 2nd of 12 words in the GSG...
The graffito, yeah again very dodgy ground, the likelihood that the Ripper wrote it is quite remote in the first place. Coupled with the idea that the killer, having decided on such a risky pre planned pattern of killings, would purposely draw attention to himself by supplying not only an explanation but a sample of his handwriting, makes it all very unlikely that this is a clue of any kind.
The trip to London Hospital for an ailment that was better treated in Brighton.... Yep I will give you that, it is a bit odd, (not utterly unexplainable, but it is odd) Perhaps he was under the impression he could receive better treatment for his particular malady in London. He could have been acting on a recommendation, the nurses in Brighton may have had cold hands and he couldn’t take it anymore. RDS illness (if ill he was) was a kind of mental illness its not reasonable to expect fully rational behaviour from someone who may have been suffering from a mental illness.
The Cremers [via O'Donnell] recollections... & Collins' fears as described by Cremers...
Hearsay and rumour? Not admissible sir, not in any fair court of law. Moreover, these all rather depend on where the root of their suspicion lies, did they suspect him because he was interested in the case and because of the strange hospital move choice thing? That just becomes a circular argument then, self-proving and not really evidence.
The interest in necromancy, beginning at age 18,which remained in tact 30 years after inception
This is the point of conjunction, a bit like the two circles in the funny looking fish (that just isn’t there). I can see no compelling evidence of occult ritual in the killings therefore an interest in the occult is evidence of nothing at all.
Let me qualify that slightly. For a start as I already said, it doesn’t actually stand up, the North, east, south west alignment isn’t there its quite a way off, and you have 5 canonical killings not 4, no compass I know has 5 points. (That’s even IF all 5 killings can be included). There is no ‘exact’ distance between each actual murder site.
Then you have the actual murders and mutilations themselves. Each slightly different and each showing signs of escalation. There is the random collection of internal bits, one and a half uteri, a bit of a bladder and a belly button, a kidney and possibly a heart. The sudden appearance of facial mutilation towards the end of the series and the wholesale destruction of Mary in Miller’s Court. All seem to point away from the organised and deliberate actions of a Necromancer and point to a disorganised maniac killing when and where the chance occurred.
I know ultimately we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, but without discussion what use is a discussion board?
Stay safe my friend.
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 249
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
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Hey Jack...and Mal..and Jeff..and all..
I remember my grandmom always saying two things.."Hey..dunce ! You gonna live in that bathroom ?" and..."It would awful if everyone agreed on everything,dollink !
The second of these two is what makes this the making of a pretty good point-counterpoint thread...I seriously understand your objections to the candidacy,Jack..For real. Honest In..Native American !
Mal makes a pretty good point here in what he experimented with,with AutoCad. We shouldn't leave anything out of the mix. Thanks for that post,Mal.
Back to Jack...In the next to last paragraph,you mention that the Ripper killed in the manner of a disorganized killer and when the opportunity presented itself.
In some occultist "philosophies" [ here's where you could help me out,Jack,as you probably have more knowledge of the various branches of occultism than I do at present.], its my understanding that the blood of harlots is required in certain rituals. Naturally,and not sarcastically, prostitutes work at night,which narrows down the available type of victim the Ripper selected.
As to being disorganized..hmm..My friend Monty [ a member of the Forums,Casebook,and every girls' heartthrob ] made some observations as to the "crossover" characterisitics of the Ripper in a post at the other site. In some ways,Monty posited,organized...in some others,disorganized. I can see what he means by the very fact that he didn't prepare from our viewpoint in 2005 in one detail in the crimes....and that being the Eddowes murder. For many people,this removal of the apron indicates,and quite naturally,a gaffe...an oversight..a random act..give it a name: it appears disorganized.
I asked Monty to elaborate for a reason. If someone keeps hearing "Fire,fire !" from some yutz and there isn't a fire,then they'll not pay attention. In my situation,as a known RDS advocate,people may very well say,"Hey..there's that yutz again.."
So,having said that, I am a little curious as to why in the Nichols and Chapman murders,there was no need to remove any articles of clothing from these victims to wipe off any blood,fecal matter,innards,ad nauseum,from the blade. Certainly these murders were as messy as the Eddowes murder.
I also know its not incumbent on anyone to provide the reason by stepping into the Time Machine and seeing exactly why this apparent error in planning occurred. Most people who follow the tenets of the various "profiling" assessments would have us believe that by the time the Ripper was at this junction in his murderous reign,he would have been more "comfortable" and "prepared" in his vile work. This "oversight" seems to violate that precept. Was it a gaffe? Was it a on-the-spot random decision ? Or was it part of that nights mayhem?
On no other night,as we all know,were any known messages left,as in the GSG [ again,assuming that it may have been from JTR ]on any walls or anywhere else.
There's one man who,of all the inhabitants of London,whom were aware of this message [ so inordinately dealt with by the police,if it was just a rank and file graffiti ], who saw or somehow knew,perhaps through Stead,of the difficulty the magic 2nd word was in translating..in fact,ahem,he may have very well wanted his work to be understood by one and all, hence the PMG article...
Take a look at the December 1st PMG article [ I'd like to know why it took so damned long for this article to appear. Could it have been written in early November and held in queue by Stead ? ] and a cursory glance will show unusually callous remarks like "the daring and bloodthirsty atrocities.".. "baffling the combined intellects of the police"..as our well-versed occultist declares. Are they signs of a man wanting his deeds fully understood?
What are your take[s] on this article?
Stayin' safe,Jack !
How |
Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 8:58 am: |
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My response and opinion of the PMG article is probably a predictable one. To me it is littered with enough errors to show that RDS had no special inside knowledge of the killings, as one would expect the killer to have and that the knowledge he did have was based on the garbled press reports of the day.
I know the counter argument to this is that RDS was being purposely duplicitous and throwing in the odd red herring, which don’t get me wrong is a strong counter and one that is impossible to disprove, but the more evasions and about turns like that that a case has to make the weaker it becomes in my eyes.
RDS gets the location of the graffito wrong when generally the press got the location of the graffito right so knowing where it was wouldn’t prove RDS to be the Ripper, therefore eliminating the need for deliberate misdirection. The fact that he got it wrong seems more to indicate that his simply mis-remembered a fact he had read,
All reports and all police at the time seem to agree that the word was Juwes. RDS argument that is was Juives is plainly based on opinion and not having seen it, to me it’s just another error.
Then to explain further and to strengthen his rather weak case he makes the claim that other grammatical errors can simply be put down to the fact that “Frenchmen being notoriously the worst linguists in the world” beautifully xenophobic but not actually true (don’t get me wrong I dislike the French as much as the next British person but fair’s fair). The examination of the language which RDS uses would require an understanding or familiarity with Victorian syntax that I just don’t have, the use of words like ‘daring’ which you suggest show a hidden pride may simply be just the way folks talked back then. The did seem to enjoy using superfluous adjectives where ever possible.
On a personal level I do find the article tiresome and uninteresting to read, very much the writings of a smug self-important irritating man. Jack the Ripper or not I wouldn’t much care to have made his acquaintance. The article smacks of boredom, too little to do and too much time on his hands, yet still he cant be bothered to properly research his facts.
As to the authorship of the graffito, and the statement you made about no other graffiti being found on other nights, I don’t think we can place much reliance on that. The reason the message was ever connected with JTR was simply its proximity to the piece of apron. We have no way of knowing how much of 19th century London was decorated with graffiti. There is an indication that it was fairly common in that it was rubbed out the police believing that it wasn’t even a clue but that its proximity to the apron would lead the populous to make much the same assumption that we have made. For proof of the ease to which the locals would jump to such a conclusion read Dews account of the near lynching of ‘Squibby’.
Anyway, my point is the area could have been rife with chalked messages as there was nothing physical connecting them with Jack hey weren’t worthy of note. The wording is only ‘cryptic’ if you try to make it anything to do with the killings. If it is purely someone who feels they have been ripped off in trade with a Jew, and just venting their frustration it makes perfect sense the accidental double negative and the misspelling of Jews just the result of poor grammar and nothing else.
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 254
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 6:35 pm: |
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" There is an indication that it was fairly common in that it was rubbed out the police believing that it wasn’t even a clue but that its proximity to the apron would lead the populace to make much the same assumption that we have made. For proof of the ease to which the locals would jump to such a conclusion read Dews account of the near lynching of ‘Squibby’..."
Dear Jack....I agree that the article in Rip #57 is terrific and shows the climate at the time. I would also suggest reading Alan Sharps latest book. It contains some incidents I had not read prior to purchasing his book.
In your paragraph above, I still fail to see why the police made the GSG such a big deal...unless of course,since we both weren't there to see why, it was.
Take care,my friend...
How |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 313
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
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Jack,
Regarding D'Onston and the argument that he wasn't so uneducated about the murders as he let on in the PMG article; this is lended considerable weight by the lengthy handwritten statement he provided to the police at the end of December (the same month his article was published) which totally contradicted the piece and the theory it presented.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 3:30 am: |
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Hi Tom
What you say is true, but lets not forget, that RDS was actually a human and susceptible to human error moreover even if his statement was mad the day after he wrote his article, who is to say he didn’t reread some primary source or other which corrected his previous error. If he consciously ‘lied’ in an article surely he would remember to continue that lie when questioned by the police. The fact that he didn’t strengthens my argument not the RDSists!
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Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 4:18 am: |
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If I follow the theory correctly, each of the murder sites was chosen before the murder took place, yes? Firstly to create the cross at the four points of the compass and secondly to give the arch of the fish. It would follow then that the first site chosen had to be Millers Court as creating the arch of the two circles is the hardest bit. If RDS had started with a random killing in the East say, and worked back from there, there could have been a danger that the arch of his fish ended up in an inappropriate or inaccessible place. Therefore, the whole killing patter had to rest with the Mary Jane killing. That would suggest that Mary Jane was pre-chosen as a victim - the others perhaps being in the wrong place (or the right place) at the right time - didn’t I read a thread on the JTRForum explaining why there was no killings in October? RDS was waiting for MJK to be alone before he could strike? Somehow then RDS planned the killings, somehow knowing that during the 10 weeks of the spree that Mary Jane would split from her lover, begin living alone, not be evicted or move on as she had done before? For such a meticulously planned campaign, a hell of a lot is left to chance. What if after their split Mary Jane had moved out and not Joe? The killer seemed to have a date pattern too 8th/9th and 30th/31st , what if Mary wasn’t alone on that night? Why if he could come and go whenever, did he only come and go on or near the weekend? (Perhaps there was a different Matron on at the weekend and during the week, it was some eagle-eyed disciplinarian Hattie Jaques character). |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 539
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
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Actually, drawing the arch of the fish would be the easiest part, if someone were doing that, as a fifth point could be in any location around the exterior of the alleged fish design. Points three and especially four of the cross would have been most problematic. An arch is a range of points, the last part of a cross is one specific point, so an arch would offer significantly more options to choose from.
Just speaking mathematically.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 3:44 am: |
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Ok yeah you may be right I was thinking arse backwards there, but still out of all those points on the arch Millers Court? And either way the supposition is he still waited a month to make sure Mary was alone, instead of just choosing one of the hundreds of other points on the map. |
Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 1:29 am: |
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Donston was admitted with neurosthenia. Treatment for this is rest, fresh air, light diet and no stimulants, and he was also a pipe smoker too.
He was at the Hospital a full month before the attacks started which gave him good time to soften up his staff and using his symptoms and treatment and the fact that he smoked a pipe to get outside the Hospital grounds.
We also have the known fact that the Elephant Man was also staying at the London Hospital at the time Donston was there and as we should all know there was plenty of trouble keeping the curious onlookers out of the Hospital grounds at the time. So what would be stopping anyone including Donston getting out ?
Howard I`d just like to state that the guy I spoke to at the Hospital Archives also tried to tell me that security was as good if not better then than todays standards which I find very hard to believe.
I`m sure the man in question answers all these questions with the aim of keeping the Hospitals good name.
All the best.
Tee |
Jack Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
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Oh I see Tee, interesting, you have done some research and asked someone in a better position than you to know, but because the answers he has given to you clashes with what you want to hear you dismiss it as being just rhetoric aimed at keeping the hospitals “good name”.
I always say there is nothing like good impartial research. And this is nothing like it!!
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 267
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 8:35 pm: |
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Hi Jack !
Sorry to have skipped the thread for awhile....Hope all is well.
Regarding Tee's trip to the London Hospital and his impression about the gentleman in question,Tyler was not alone in his impression that the man was giving a "company speech" regarding security for the Hospital now and then.
First of all,the man,a Mr.Evans,wasn't alive in 1888 and is,as an employee of the Hospital, an ambassador of the Hospital. We can't expect him to say anything moderately negative about his place of employment,can we ?
Secondly,the man stated that RDS was in the Hospital for chloralism. Thats not what Melvin Harris found out,nor others...He was in for this neurosthenia or whatever the hell it was.
Thirdly,the Hospital had had difficulty keeping people out of the institution when Merrick was there at the same time.
Take 'er easy,Mr. Green
How Brown
JTRForums
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3257
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 6:43 am: |
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Yeah sure,
Not only does D'Onston manage to sneak out on several occasions (the nights of the murders), but then he also manages to sneak in again, unseen and probably also with traces of blood on him.
Not to mention the fact that he also manages to dispose of blood-stained clothes, or explain why that particular clothing is missing.
So we are meant to believe, that the staff were deaf, blind, asleep or totally occupied with the Elephant Man -- all of them -- on every murder date, when D'Onston is supposed to have checked in and out. Like the hospital had swing doors.
It is a highly questionable theory, based on a total lack of logic reasoning. I can't even for a moment imagine why people ever considers this a realistic possibility.
Howard,
"Thirdly,the Hospital had had difficulty keeping people out of the institution when Merrick was there at the same time."
Possible, but both IN and OUT? And on several occasions? In an institution?
I wouldn't think so...
But once again, as in most pet suspect speculations... another attempt to make the "facts" fit an unlikely theory, no matter how ridiculous it is.
I also want to state that I totally concur with jack Green regarding the Goulston Street writing. Those who take for granted that this piece of "evidence" was written by the killer, really should reconsider; apart from the placing of the apron, there is no real interesting connection between the writing and the murders, especially as it was scribbled down in small writing in a dark part of the wall inside the doorway.
And for those who believe in an occult motive for the murders, the writing is a bad choice to put forward as evidence, since it displays nothing of the sort, but only some very vague antisemitic message. Of course one could speculate, that the antisemitic implications were supposed to throw the police and the public off track, but again, we have no evidence to support this.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 12, 2005)
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 268
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 8:01 am: |
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Glenn
Its not as hard as people think to enter hospitals or leave them for that matter,once they have been recognized or are "familiar" to staff.
No one is taking the GSG for granted. The apron certainly came from Mrs. Eddowes. Alone,the GSG means nothing...and would have never been a factor in the Case...except for the fact that it sits directly above a piece of an apron from a murder victim some distance away...
Its harder to imagine that a rat or a dog dragging the piece,or the wind blowing the apron, to this specific spot. Not impossible.....just harder.
Are we going to argue with police officials, who were on the spot and went to all this trouble about the connection ? I can't see in the past that far to be able to do so...
Its easy to cast aspersions on "pet" suspect theories when one doesn't have a "pet" suspect. Again,regardless of whom wrote the GSG....what it means...if it meant anything at all other than some gibberish to the author of the message...Glenn,old bean...its there..big as life...right above the apron.
....and thats no pet "theory". Its a fact.
Time to drink.........
How Brown
JTRForums
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3259
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 8:46 am: |
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Howard,
"Its not as hard as people think to enter hospitals or leave them for that matter,once they have been recognized or are "familiar" to staff."
At night? Hardly credible.
And why on earth would the staff who "knew" D'Onston let him out at night, and then let him in with blood stains without ever revealing this to the press or the authorities during the Ripper scare?
Or do you mean to imply that he had accomplices inside the institution, or that he bribed them?
"Are we going to argue with police officials, who were on the spot and went to all this trouble about the connection ? I can't see in the past that far to be able to do so... "
Has it ever occurred to the GSG supporters that the police main concern regarding the writing was its antisemitic message, and the fear of riots? There were probably more scribblings like this on the walls in an antisemitic climate, but since it was found on the same place as a Ripper victim item, it would get a rather unhealthy attention.
The fact that it was found in connection to the apron does not in any indicate that it had something to do with it. Some policemen did consider it a clue, but Warren's main concern about antisemitic riots seems to have been of greater relevancy.
All the best 
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4222
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
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Arriving at, or exiting from, a Victorian hospital in a bloodstained state might be looked upon as the perfect disguise. 
Robert |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3260
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
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Hmmmm... Woudn't think so, Robert. Hardly a hospital I would like to stay in, letting the patients walk around with blood-stained clothing... 
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 543
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 1:24 pm: |
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London Hospital, 1886
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 270
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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Thanks for the map,R.J.
Glenn.....Who said RDS returned to the Hospital with bloodstained clothes ?
No one over here is suggesting he had an accomplice.
It would depend on the ward he was in to determine how easy or difficult a nocturnal sojourn would be...If you believe that it is difficult to leave or enter Hospitals at night,you haven't been to Philadelphia.
Of course,those who "support" the GSG as a clue or evidence know that the reason Warren followed through with Arnold's sponge and bucket brigade had to do with possible or actual reprecussions against Jews.
Actually,we don't know if any other graffiti were present on the wall at the Wentworth Building. That's an assumption made by those who feel that a building full of Jews would sit idly by and allow such graffiti be placated in number OR that non-Jews would go to the length of going to the Wentworth and placing anti-Semitic graffiti in a building full of Jews....as if the Jews there would simply take it in stride...and leave this message,along with any other of the assumed graffiti,untouched.
Its funny that Halse or Long or Warren or Arnold or any other person present that night didn't mention the proliferation of graffiti that some assume would be present. Were there other graffiti even near the building? Any on the facades of the building on the left or the right side of the Wentworth ?
Walking inside the Wentworth Building to the spot the graffiti was provided cover for the graffiti's author,if the GSG is in fact the Ripper's work.
I don't know much about the psychology behind graffiti artists. What I would presume is that in order to get a message stated to someone I didn't like, I would make it just a little bit bigger and more offensive to the party I wasn't happy with....
For example:
Good graffiti: "My Mother In Law sucks !"
Silly Graffiti: "My Mother In Law is not the meddling woman that is despised for nothing."
Bending an elbow....
How Brown
JTRForums
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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nameunknown
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 3:24 am: |
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Just a thought - has anyone checked out the location of the 'centre' of the cross in the 'vesica piscis' diagram. I lived in the East End many years ago and from what I can estimate from the somewhat low-res maps available on-line (and sort of recollect) it falls in or close to an area which was (well before my time) one of the more dingy and criminal area's of Whitechapel. So - any unsolved murders there? rooms for rent? churches with odd history? If the 'occultist' theory is true they he may have set up his glyph so that there was a relevant location at the very centre. I know this sounds like the sort of 'treasure hunt' map that one used to find on the back of a Corn Flakes packet, but it may be worth a look. |
Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
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It`s not impartial my friend.
The guy at the Hospital doesn`t know what he is talking about in regards to "our particular interest".
If you went there and simply asked him what condition DOnston was admitted with during the period of the murders he`ll give you the same wrong answer he gave me. (And probably many others? Chloralism.) Which he wasn`t diagnosed with until the later date of Monday 13th May 1889. And not with the condition of "Neurosthenia" (NOT neurasthenia) of which he was originally admitted with a few weeks before the first victim of the canonical five was killed. On 26th July 1888. If you also asked him what ward he stayed in at the time and where that ward was. You`d also get a wrong answer.
We know where they were and the names (And it wasn`t Currie Ward) So as you see I have not changed anything to disgrace the innocent.
But I thought I`d let you all know that he is very vague when it comes to the history of DOnston. And yes I do question Mr J Evans knowledge on the subject at hand.
I know what DOnston was in there for and on what dates. But the gentleman who works there insists on telling people differently. Why would that be Jack ?
I have no answers for this! And my post is in no way trying to convince anyone of you it was DOnston who was the Ripper. I`m merely telling you that someone who is supposed to know what he is talking about, and in whom good researchers have relied on, have likely to of been led down a blind path of incorrect details. Which is NOT really good enough for anyone "seriously" wanting to learn more on the subject.
And one day Jack if you ever decide to take yourself down there? Be sure you`ll get the same incorrect statements. And they are incorrect my friend.
He should quit remembering what it was he read in "The Sun" last year, and put his head back into the archives which he is very lucky to be-able to scour through on a daily basis, and learn the real details as to why and where DOnston was staying at the time. I mean thats what he is paid for after all.
All the best.
Impartial-Tee |
name unknown
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 4:59 am: |
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RE: my previous post I finally remembered that the name of the alleyway was 'Green Dragon Yard' (perhaps if Thomas Harris had called his Hannibal book 'Green Dragon' that would be interesting to the lunatic fringe)
Here is an extract from the archeological data for the closest excavated site to the 'centre' of the VP glyph
Original material can be found here:
http://www.molas.org.uk/pages/siteSummariesDetailsAll.asp?year=summaries1999&borough=Tower%20Hamlets
Green Dragon Yard, Old Montague Street, E1 (GDY99)
TQ 3406 8155
(Lunatic fringe note - Jack is using his glyph to point the finger at 'John Montague Druit' ('drew it') here!!!)
Green Dragon Yard, Old Montague Street, E1 TQ 3406 8155 MoLAS (Heather Knight) evaluation June - July 1999 Hodgson’s Limited GDY99 (honestly, no relation to Stephen Knight and the Sickert Theory)
'....Above this deposit was a thick layer of garden soil containing 18th century finds. The garden soil appeared to be sealing a large rectangular pit; the exact dimensions of which are unknown as it extends beyond the limit of excavation. The pit was notable for its concentrations of 18th century clay tobacco pipe fragments, which included 50 pipe bowls, of which 49 are dated 1700-40. There is a single pipe dated 1680-1710, which is presumably intrusive. Half of the pipes which were retrieved have makers’ marks. The initials RS occur 22 times. It is unusual to find so many pipes with the same mark in one deposit, and this suggests that the maker must have been working locally.....'
So, we are looking for a pipe-smoking maniac with the initials 'RS' who 'worked locally' - obviously a mystery solved!...now if only I could get Conan-Doyle into this somehow....
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 272
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
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"It is a highly questionable theory, based on a total lack of logic reasoning. I can't even for a moment imagine why people ever considers this a realistic possibility."--Glenn A.
I hear you Glenn. I'd leave it alone if I felt it was a highly illogical concept.
But I really wish you would stay.
The assumption that someone could not premeditate a plan involving leaving a Hospital to commit murder sounds like the cocksure people who could not imagine a "stable family man,like Dennis Rader,a.k.a.,the BTK Killer or a 17 year old loser like John Malvo,a.k.a. The D.C. Sniper,had to be a White guy,25-35,ad infinitum...".
We continue to agreeably disagree...and drink like fish...
My turn to buy....
Skoal !
How Brown
JTRForums
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1548
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 8:32 am: |
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Hi Glenn,
There were probably more scribblings like this on the walls in an antisemitic climate, but since it was found on the same place as a Ripper victim item, it would get a rather unhealthy attention.
Only if the apron piece had been left there for members of the public to see.
But since the police removed the 'Ripper victim item' as soon as they spotted it, the chalked message directly above would not have had any more attention - unhealthy or otherwise - than any of the anti-Semitic scribblings you think probably adorned the walls on a regular basis, until wiped off by the first person sufficiently offended or public-spirited to do so.
I think the hospital argument goes that if D'Onston dunnit, he used a separate bolt hole to clean himself up and stash his trophies, and his absences from hospital need not have been confined to just a couple of hours during the night before and after each ripper murder took place.
The fact remains, however, that no one who suspected him of dark deeds - at the time or in later years - has established whether he was absent from his hospital bed on all the critical dates and times, and therefore he has an apparent alibi that has yet to be broken.
Love,
Caz
X
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 2:09 pm: |
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Hi all,
Does anyone know what dates Morgan Davies' friend Dr Evans (suffering from typhoid) was in the hospital?
I will find out if no-one knows, but thought I'd try the lazy option first.
David |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
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Hi Tom,
I was just checking out your Feb 1st + 7th postings which gave an assessment on William Stead. It's true the man was successful + influential, but he also attained a very sleazy reputation which went beyond his Eliza Armstrong troubles. A good depiction of this unsavory editor can be found by looking at the front page of the Oct 16, 1887 Brooklyn Daily Eagle. The article stated:
The "St. Stephen Review" reproduced a facsimile of the case of editor Stead who had called upon an associate of the convicted swindler, Viscount Hinton, to reveal certain incidents of the turf career of Hinton's reputed father, Lord Poulett. The Review accused Stead of "infamous conspiracy" to villify Lord Poulett, and says the man to whom Stead applied refused to be made a tool of.
As we've read, this article revealed how Stead would seek the employment of a scoundrel if that's what it takes to bring his "conspiracy" plans to life. The only purpose of Stead's plot here was to villify his prey, Lord Poulett, in the pages of the editor's Pall Mall Gazette. We see how Stead had brazenly attempted an attack on an upper class member of England in 1887, and he even tried to do it by utilizing a disreputable character as his tool.
In relation to this thread, I'd say if I was suspected by Stead as being the Ripper (like D'Onston was) I'd be concerned about the editor's ability to make his suspicions widely known. But I'd take solace in the fact that my accuser had achieved for himself a very tarnished reputation.
As for this Viscount Hinton character, in March 1886 he was sentenced to one year's imprisonment in England for obtaining goods under false pretenses. This Viscount was the rogue son of Earl Poulett. The Earl had refused to foot the bill for his 'scapegrace son' anymore, thus family trouble ensued. Stead was circling around this situation like a shark, and it sounded like the editor tried to employ Hinton's partner-in-crime to dig up some more dirt on the Earl. I'd guess Lord Poulett can be identified with William Henry Poulett the 6th Earl of Poulett who lived from 1827-1899.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4243
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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It's a wacky story.
"Times" Jan 25th 1899 :
Jul 12th 1918
Robert |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 265
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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"Here's a list,which I hope Thomas C. or others in the camp of RDS will assist with by adding on their points..
D'ONSTON AS RIPPER...LIST OF POSSIBLE LINKS TO HIS POSSIBLE CULPABILITY..not necessarily in order.... "
I'd add the intro to the Patristic Gospels...
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
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Donston appealed twice to let us know the link between the graffito and the apron, and perhaps The motive? See Pall Mall article "From One Who Knows" and also in the letter to the Police sent from Currie Ward.
And as Howard states, why on earth do you think he was covered in blood ?? We know there wasn`t much blood at the scenes of the crimes so unless you think they were killed elsewhere and carried there afterwards? why would the Killer be "Covered" in blood ???
My girlfriend just recently as a couple of months ago had a major Op on her kidneys and it took 5 days for her to get a bracelet on her wrist for her ID and we was also able to leave the grounds of the Hospital on several occasions. (We was moving home at the time and my partner hadn`t even seen the house, so I sneaked her out to view it. Complete with Xmas decorations I might add.) These excursions all went un-noticed til I actually complained that it was too relaxed. And this was due to my partners politeness and understanding of the job the others were doing. My partner was also a nurse, but in the mental health sector and so realised everytime a breach of Health and Safety was occuring, when medication cabinets were being left un attended and un-locked. And If we`d of complained everytime they were doing something they shouldn`t of we`d of been there for a lot longer than a week. But also being that she was also a nurse they thought that she`d be a little more understanding and turn a blind eye to these mishaps.
DOnston was known as a Dr of sorts. He admitted himself to London Hospital. So why when his treatment would be fresh air and non stressful activity would he not be allowed out of the Hospital grounds ??
As my post won`t get on here til this has all been answered by others, I`ll not type too much.
So til then ...
Best wishes.
Tee
http://www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 8:19 pm: |
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Davies Ward was at the time of the Murders on the Grocers Wing. Just thought I`d add that. |
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