| Author |
Message |
    
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1387
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 4:27 pm: | 
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Hi David,I too often think Druitt may well have been JtR and I have to admit that this is almost solely because of the kind of illness his mother suffered from,the likelihood that this was paranoia/schizophrenia[thinking people were out to electrocute her for example] and the genetic factors regarding this illness.The fact that he didnt seem to have any huge ambitions to become a surgeon,like his father,or barrister or and seems to have been content to be a part time barrister. Also that he chose a rather solitary part time post as a school master at a boys boarding school---no need for any over involvement emotionally in a job like this-he could distance himself with ease.
I could therefore begin to see him as someone who had the sort of personality that might be triggered by his mothers illness into a similar tpattern of breakdown to hers-and so could he to judge from his suicide note.
But I doubt we shall ever know what his "voices" told him ,if this is what happened to him and which is the most frequent manifestation of that illness or what he thought were his "commands ".The motive is almost impossible to follow in most cases I have heard of.It could have been some literal interpretation from the old testament for example.Such a person may in fact have been thinking he was "helping" these women towards their salvation.
True paranoia has only the most tenuous link to reality-there often seems to be no rhyme or reason in it.
But there is also much we know of him that points away from this type of personality and towards someone who enjoyed the engagement with the thrust and parry of sports---
--- Dont you find his love of Sports a bit anomalous?And he was so responsible about his post as Honorary secretary of the Blackheath Cricket Club!
At University too there was his quite passionate engagement with life in the debating society he had joined, demonstrating a tendency to view life rather liberally,not too stuffily and debating issues of fairly down to earth subject matter.
True he seems to have been deeply troubled the last few days of his life.We need to know why.Was he being framed for example?
One thing is for certain though.He was a prime suspect in the Jack the Ripper Case----there must have been a reason for this beyond his drowning himself at the end of 1888.We need to know the reason he was such an important suspect.So far we have no evidence or any good reason.
Natalie |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 256
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
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I don't know if there had to be a reason beyond Druitt's suicide for suspecting him. Of course, mcnaghten has his famous "private information" but as time goes on I trust him less.
If we were looking for someone to fit what we know about a mutilating serial killer, would we pick someone like MJD if he hadn't been mentioned in the MM? Would some researcher in 2005 find an article about his suicide and post here "AHA I've found him"? I think not.
Mags
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1390
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
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Hi Mags,
I dont think we can say Druitt wasnt a suspect until they found he had drowned himself.I think there was more to it than that.I mean its sort of Monty Python like to imagine the police or whoever getting hugely excited upon the discovery of a corpse in the Thames in Jan 1889 and exclaiming triumphantly,"that"s the Ripper--must be him because he"s committed suicide hasnt he!"----and Macnaghten exclaiming ,AHAH!in the same vein and nodding wisely.
Even if he did have incriminating material on Druitt he may not have shared it for the reasons given.And Abberline retired in 1892 which was two years before the memorandum of Machnaughtens.So he actually may not have been in a position to have seen the "private information "Macnaghten says he recieved "some years after the events"---hence his comments about Druitt as a suspect may not have been as well informed as they would have been had he been still in post.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3774
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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Mags, I know what you mean. On the other hand, if someone showed us Druitt - teaching at a school, appearing in court, discharging his sports club functions - and then said that a few days later he'd drown himself in the Thames, we'd think "unlikely."
Obviously, something happened on a Friday and it made him feel he had no future, that he was going to "be like mother." Assuming that this wasn't some damning piece of diagnosis from a doctor, I think it's likely that he somehow lost control, or had a blackout, or something like that - but that he'd had earlier experiences, which he'd managed to keep the lid on or shrug off, while maintaining an apparently normal facade. So I think he'd have known how to put on an act, until right at the end when he felt there was no longer any point.
And anyway - stiff upper lip, and all that!
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 547
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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Hi Robert and all,
You know, I was noticing that small news item on September 20th on this thread about the identification of the corpse of Lt. Col. Clare. It is interesting for several reasons:
1) Like Monty, Clare disappeared in early December 1888.
2) Like Monty, it turned out that he drowned in the Thames.
3) And like Monty (until Farson stumbled onto him in the late 1950s, and then Tom Cullen looked into his more in AUTUMN OF TERROR) the drowning death was not noticed by students of the Whitechapel Case. Remember, before Farson discussed Macnaghten's memorandum the story of the Ripper as a suicide by drowning was just a legend (Mrs. Belloc Lowndes kills off "the Lodger" by drowning him). Now, suddenly, there are more cases of death by drowning at the right time than we thought. What is the complete story regarding Lt. Col. Clare? And if there are Monty and the Colonel, who else can there be?
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3778
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 4:15 am: |
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Hi Jeff
Well, on New Year's Day 1889 a barman called William Whitby jumped - or was pushed - into the Regent's Canal. Insanity was in the family. The jury's verdict was "found drowned" but how he got into the water was a mystery.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 323
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:11 am: |
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Hello All,
As has been said above, few would have lumped the "respectable" MCC member, and London barrister and middle class member of a fine rural family, in with self-abusing problem people from the stews of the East End. As a suspect for JTR.
The fact Jack eluded the police and others in the very crowded and by Autumn 1888, very alarmed populace of East London, suggests to me the police were looking above Jack's head at other, more obvious suspects.
That is why, no matter what the hard headed practical Ripperologists tell me,I feel in my bones, the Steve White obituary story of 1919
contains far too much probable material to be a
fantasy.
Could someone like Macnaghten have planted the disguised story in an obscure Scottish paper to ensure at least somewhere in Britain a clue to the identity of the "real" Jack The Ripper would at last be out?
(That is, that the "real" Jack The Ripper was a West End sexually insane person and not an East End one).
Perhaps some textual detective will discern the
quiet hand of G R Sims in the PEOPLES JOURNAL article...
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 261
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:02 am: |
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Robert-
If we looked t the last 2-3 months of Druitt's life we might be surprised that he killed himself but we'd also probably be surprised that he was fired from his job at the school.sometimes with suicides even close friends and family are shocked because the person seems so well adjusted before the act.
All in all I think we have to ask ourselves-is there anything in Druitt's circumstances OTHER THAN th MM that would have made anyone suspect him?
If the answer is yes, then he can still remain on the list. If the answer is no, then we're left with the musical question-why did Mcnaghten point the finger at him?
If Mcnaghten was given the assignment of throwing suspicion off someone specific or just away from a certain line of thought For The Good Of The Service, then Druitt certainly is a good,convienient patsy.
Mercy me
Conspiracy!
I'd better hie myself off to another discussion to have a good debate pro or con (if I haven't been banned!)
Mags
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 710
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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Robert wrote:
Of course, I know that some very good researchers have been working on him for a long time, without turning that "something" up. If it does come out, it'll probably be lucky chance.
I'm not so sure. Until a few weeks ago in this thread I had never heard that Monty had court appearances during the last few days of his life -- and there it was in the Times for all to read! I must conclude that serious research into Druitt has actually been lacking, which gives me great hope that something useful is yet to be discovered. I'm not sure that anyone (other than perhaps Farson) has actually examined Druitt's death certificate or knows what date of death is listed thereupon. I have ordered a copy and am awaiting its arrival as I type this.
Andy S. |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 603
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 1:27 pm: |
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Until a few weeks ago in this thread I had never heard that Monty had court appearances during the last few days of his life -- and there it was in the Times for all to read! I must conclude that serious research into Druitt has actually been lacking, which gives me great hope that something useful is yet to be discovered.
To be fair, I don't think there was a searchable electronic text of the Times back in the 80s, when Howells and Skinner did their research on Druitt, let alone earlier, in the days of Farson, Cullen and their collaborators.
It may well be that more information about Druitt - and other suspects - comes to light in the future. If so, my guess is that most of it will also be the result of digitisation. For example, I'd be surprised if the millions of books that Google is planning to scan didn't contain some interesting hints about the Ripper in obscure volumes of reminiscences. And no doubt unpublished diaries and letters will eventually become available for this sort of searching.
But I don't think that should diminish the work of earlier researchers who had to make their discoveries without the tremendous computational assistance we have today.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3785
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
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Hi Mags
Yes, there is realistically just the MM as the main argument, though there are some supporting points, such as that Monty died at the right time, and was of unsound mind (although there is no evidence of violence), plus he would have had at least a smattering of medical knowledge etc.
Personally I don't know quite what to make of Sir Melville, but I know that he exasperates me.
I suppose those who believe in the Kosminski theory, or at least think that theory is a front runner, are also obliged to take what Sir M says about Druitt seriously (as Sir M has already hit the target, so to speak, with Kosminski).
Maybe a disgruntled Druitt, having lost a case, wrote "The juries are not the men..." 
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1391
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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Hi All,
I too tried to call up some local material on Druitt"s Blackheath activities from the Greenwich Heritage Centre.I telephoned and then sent a cheque to cover some research on the microfilms of local newspaper reports of 1886-1890[approx.] A few days ago the librarian wrote to me sending back my cheque and saying that a certain Mr Neil Rhind, a noted Blackheath Historian had already researched the local connections surrounding Montague Druitt"s dismissal from Eliot Place.Apparently Mr Rhind was unable to come up with anything conclusive on Druitt"s dismissal.However,he was writing in 1889 when the census was as yet unavailable due to the 100 year rule but can now be consulted at Lewisham local studies centre[where Eliot Place is].They have given me an address for this and for Mr Rhind should I wish to pursue these leads.Although I am up to my neck with work and Studio matters I will do both these things as soon as I can.If any of you would like to get on with it before I am able to I can email the addresses given to Casebook members.
Best Natalie |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 6:40 am: |
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Hi Mags....Just replying to your earlier point, which said, "If we were looking for a mutilating killer, would we pick Druitt"??
The answer is NO, probably not....But then, that's exactly why so many serial killers remain at liberty for so long, because no one even dreams about suspecting them from their everyday demeanour. Druitt, to me, is the perfect example of this.
Best wishes Mags.
DAVID CARTWRIGHT} |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 711
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 9:58 pm: |
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Natalie,
I would encourage you to contact Mr. Rhind when you are able. He has probably done a lot of legwork, but perhaps not necessarily from all the angles we have been musing about. Perhaps you could ask Mr. Rhind whether he would mind providing some of us with an e-mail address, or better yet, if he would care to share his information with us in this forum.
Chirs,
I could have chosen my words better. By saying that research into Druitt was "lacking" I didn't mean to disparage Howells and Skinner or others. I only meant that much seems not to have yet been uncovered (as evidenced by the court dates). You are right on about the possibility of finding buried information in long forgotten volumes and unpublished diaries. That's why someone should check with the descendants of former Eliot Place students.
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1415
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 1:13 pm: |
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Hi Andrew,
I have written to Mr Rhind,who is a well known Local Historian for the Blackheath/Lewisham area.Will let you know of any reply I may get,
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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Today I received a letter from MrRhind.He states that copies of his paper are available from him at a cost of £15 but says he doesnt wish to discuss it with anybody.
Ha adds that he assumes that I have seen Mr Leighton"s recent book on MJ Druitt and adds that he believes that Mr Leighton has covered the subject as thoroughly as it is possible to do so.
I gather from the letter that he wrote his paper "to stop people talking nonsense" about Druitt.
I think I will leave it there and wait until I have read the Leighton book.
I only want to add that as Machnaghten began all the "nonsense" until we have information that can refute what he said, people are entitled to try to find out what made him make such "nonsensical claims"![IMHO]
Oh well we can but try!
Natalie
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4020
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
Thanks for pursuing this matter. At least it looks as if the Leighton book will be a good read.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 661
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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Natalie
Thank you for passing on the information from Mr Rhind.
What can one say? £15 sounds rather steep for a copy of the text of an unpublished paper - especially as Leighton's book costs only £15 - and if it was written "to stop people talking nonsense", it's to be feared it won't stop many of them (in my experience people who like to talk nonsense won't willingly stop even when the truth is pointed out to them very forcibly - without charge).
I wonder if - for the more efficient suppression of nonsense - Mr Rhind would allow his work to be published here, in return for a fee? Maybe some Druittists could band together.
Incidentally, the dissertation by Stawell Heard on "Mr. Valentine's School" (http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-valentine.html) refers approvingly to Mr Rhind's work, and may give an idea of the kind of information that's included in his paper.
Chris Phillips
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
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Well if you feel like trying Chris!He was rather emphatic about NOT wanting his paper to be"on line" and sounded as though all he was prepared to do was sell his paper to interested individuals!However if you would like to write I can email you his address.
Thanks very much for the Heard Dissertation.Interesting!
As far as the thinking on Druitt being gay etc I cant accept that this would have been the problem we think.If he was indiscreet maybe.As far as him being a paedophile-which is a separate matter as such individuals are I understand more often heterosexual in the sense that the attraction is towards children of the opposite sex as a rule then maybe----but anyone who knows anything about all boys boarding schools [in the not so distant past as well as Victorian past]knows that all sorts of unacceptable practices were common then----esp regarding corporal punishment,beatings
I honestly think if it was something to do with these matters Mr Valentine would have had a quiet word with him---not sacked him.
But if on the other hand Druitt had begun to behave not only oddly but also irresponsibly-by say leaving the school from time to time unannounced and without arranging a replacement person to oversee the boys that would be something that would have caused great alarm and Valentine might have had to sack him to protect the safety of the pupils-especially if some were quite young[IMHO].
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1564
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
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Sorry-I havent said above that I was referring to the dissertation you mention in your post.He argues towards MJ Druitt being gay and this would have been the reason he was sacked!
Natalie |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 663
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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Natalie
Thanks for the further information.
If Mr Rhind says he doesn't want his paper online, it probably won't be much good trying.
As he thinks Leighton's treatment is as thorough as possible, presumably that's the better option!
Chris Phillips
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 11:30 am: |
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Hi Natalie, Robert & Chris.
I don't see where Mr. Rhind qualifies to make a judgement about MacNaghten or ourselves, without any evidence to call our theories "nonsense".
I don't believe that any of us serious students have accused Druitt "lightly". Having looked at all the suspects proffered both before and since Monty, I still find him the only one who will fit a "realistic" pattern, from start to finish, in the Ripper case. His proven deteriorating mental state, his Mother committed to an Asylum only a few weeks before the murders started. His suicide only three weeks after the Miller's Court horror.
A base of refuge close at hand in King's Bench Walk. A suicide note, of which to me, only an "extract" has ever been made public. A sportsman, strong, fit, and agile, as the Ripper had to be. On top of these things, MacNaghten didn't just pluck him out of thin air for no reason, years afterwards.
I'm sorry Mr.Rhind, but until there is concrete evidence to the contrary, I will always believe that Druitt was Jack the Ripper.
Best wishes all.
DAVID CARTWRIGHT}}} |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 742
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:27 pm: |
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Natalie,
Thanks for trying with Mr. Rhind. Pity he seems so uncooperative. Your experience with the local heritage center returning your cheque and referring you to someone who refuses to discuss the matter almost sounds like a cover-up. Note that I said "almost."
Do you know if perhaps the Blackheath or Greenwich public libraries has a copy of Rhind's paper? I plan to be in London in March and I do intend to make a trip to Blackheath but I'm not sure how much time I'll have for nosing around in libraries.
Andy S.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1646
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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Andrew,
I had the impression that Mr Rhind is well known as a local historian and someone they have regard for rather than trying to cover things up.
It may still be worth checking out old local newspaper reports on micro film at the Heritage Centre and arranging that in advance to avoid disappointing library closings etc.I could ring up for you and I myself will also try to get over there at some point.
From the tone of his letter Mr Rhind is not particularly objective about the matter.
This new book on Druitt that he recommends which I think you said you had bought......is it any good?I thought when I read that it encourages readers towards the Gull/Duke of Clarence/Sickert conspiracy that it must out of date and ill researched with regard to the theories and suspects-but maybe well its well researched re Monty and his leisure activities!
Best Wishes Natalie |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 743
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 7:19 pm: |
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Natalie,
I haven't received the book yet. It was just shipped yesterday. I should have it in time to take it back across the pond with me in March for my London trip. I'll be travelling with my 14 year old daughter this time, so I'm not sure how much library time she'll be willing to endure. Probably none! We will make a jaunt down to Blackheath, however, even if only to see Eliot Place and where the school was.
Andy S. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 347
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 7:57 pm: |
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Hello All,
I have just been trawling back through the "Druitt Last Days" thread.
So I have a bit of a backlog of observations.
PC Moulson's claim Druitts body had no "papers' on it, suggests to me -given he had just described the cheques and season ticket-he was talking about the usual means of identifying unknown drowned persons, that is, wallet, cart-de-visit, et cetera. As has been expertly pointed out, the Season (Rail) Tickets in those days showed the name of the holder.
Some posters seem mystified by the claim MJDs disappearance might have been around November, rather that the press date at the Inquest "30th December". Macnaghten was not the only person to speak of the length of time the body had been in the water. Bodies do not extensively decompose from December 30th to December 31st.
Confusion about the one -or two- notes left by Druitt: one to his brother "I may be becoming like Mother.." and another left for Mr Valentine, the Headmaster of 9 Eliot Place School.
This confusion surrounds just where the notes might have been left and just where MJD was residing at the date of his death.
Given the length of time Druitt served at the school, even if he was dismissed for serious trouble, I cannot think Mr Valentine would turf him out at a moment's notice into the cold winter's night.
I imagine an interview took place to establish the facts; which must have been sufficient to warrant dismissal but not to warrant a formal charging at the police station (i.e: arrest).
It is perhaps the lack of a formal police charge and the proximity of boys aged 9 to 17 which has prompted speculation of the charges being of a pedophilic nature.There is no concrete evidence.
It is quite possible Druitt returned to his rooms (located in the upper floor of the school)where he would have had time to contemplate the predicament he was now in. The imputation of the imperfectly paraphrased note (in the Inquest report ) suggests he himself admitted he had a
psychological problem.("becoming like mother" that is: paranoid and delusional).
I suggest he probably then decided to go to Chiswick to seek the help of either a trusted family or social friend, or as David Andersen suggests, to consult a medical expert.
The private home of Dr Henry Sutherland of Blacklands House Asylum, Chelsea, was at North End Road Hammersmith, for instance.(At least in the 1886 Kellys directory).P C Moulson described Druitt as a stranger to the district.
Concerning the mystery of why Mr Valentine seems never to have discovered the note from Druitt to him. It seems Mr Valentine did not live on school premises, but away from the school, at his late mother's residence, 97 Dacre Park. If the school had closed for the year (on 31st November?), then Valentine might have been excused for taking a break and not going up to the school so often.
Because MJD used the Eliot Place address as that of his private residence in all his cricketing records from the early 1880's, the levelling of a serious charge against him presented an insurmountable dilemma.
Please note: it is possible his belongings were still stored at the school, whilst MJD himself might have been temporarily residing away from school premises. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 348
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 8:03 pm: |
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Yeah, I know..."thirty days hath September, April, June and NOVEMBER...".
Sorry about that. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1662
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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Andrew,Chris,John,David,Robert et al,
today I received a communication from Mr Rhind
saying he had tried twice unsuccessfully to get the following information on the casebook which he has written in order to clear up any confusion
regarding his position regarding the paper he wrote,"Jack the Ripper-the Blackheath connection".
Dear Readers,
Because I am the subject of much discussion on your website in recent weeks I thought I should join in and offer a few words of explanation.I wrote my paper for a University of London extra mural studies course in November 1988.
I did so because there was so much rubbish being written and spoken about both Montague Druitt and Blackheath generally.At the time few researchers had visited south of the river. Because my years of close study of the architectural and social history of Blackheath I had access to records others never knew existed.I was the first to open minutes of the Blackheath Cricket,Football and Lawn Tennis Company to a wider audience. And also to publish accurate details about George Valentine and his school, and to chronicle some of the chilling coincidences concerning the Blackheath Preparatory school and the areas in relation to other Ripper identity theories.The Frank Wedekind theory being just one deserving of closer investigation.
I wanted to leave it at that but word soon spread of my lecture and I was pressed for copies. So I printed it up and gave it away more freely than I should.The only alterations to the original manuscript I made subsequently came as a result of the opening of the 1891 and 1901 enumerated census returns and the rec ent creation of Times digital.
In due course I realised my findings were being used without acknowledement and often misquoted,and that nobody ever offered to pay for the photocopying or even the postage.Thereafter I decided that asking for a small fee was a reasonable request
Happy hunting
Neil Rhind
so now you have the information from Neil Rhind himself if any of you now want the paper...I would add that The curator of Greenwich Heritage
Centre spoke very highly indeed of all Mr Rhind"s
local history research....Natalie
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1664
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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Andrew,
A visit to Greenwich Heritage Centre may be something your daughter would enjoy.Apart from your own interests, Greenwich has a huge permanent exhibition on Nelson with model replicas of the sea battles, actual artefacts from the time as well as Nelson"s state funeral on the Thames etc.
Also The Royal Observatory with Wren"s famous octagon room.
Why not combine your own interests with this
other historical stuff which might interest your daughter?
Natalie
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 746
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Natalie
Many thanks for passing on the further information from Mr Rhind.
I can't help thinking that - while his local history research may indeed be of "Rolls Royce" quality - the "small fee" of £15 for photocopying his paper is likely to put most people off, especially when they can get a copy of John Leighton's 200-page hardback biography of Druitt at the same cost.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4220
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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Yes, thanks Natalie. I agree with Chris - £15 is a bit steep.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 747
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 8:21 pm: |
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The Frank Wedekind theory being just one deserving of closer investigation.
Just out of curiosity - does anyone know what's meant by this? Is this meant to imply that Wedekind himself is a suspect, or that a worthwhile theory of the murders can be deduced from his works?
Chris Phillips
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Neil Rhind
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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Dear Readers
Because I am the subject of much discussion on your web site in recent weeks I thought I should join in and offer a few words of explanation. I wrote my paper on “Jack the Ripper – the Blackheath Connection” for a University of London extra Mural Studies course in 1989.
I did so because there was much rubbish being written and spoken about both Montague Druitt and Blackheath generally. At the time few researchers had visited south of the river. Because of my years of close study of the architectural and social history of Blackheath I had access to records other never knew existed. I was the first to open the minute books of the Blackheath Cricket, Football & Lawn Tennis Company, to a wider audience. And also to publish accurate details about George Valentine, his background and his school, and to chronicle some of the chilling coincidences concerning the Blackheath Proprietary School and the areas in relation to other Ripper identity theories. The Frank Wedekind theory being just one and deserving of closer investigation.
I wanted to leave it that but word soon spread of my lecture and I was pressed for copies. So I printed it up and gave it away more freely than I should. The only alterations to the original manuscript I made subsequently came as a result of the opening of the 1891 and 1901 enumerated census returns and the recent creation of Times Digital.
In due course I realised that my findings were being used without acknowledgement and often misquoted, and that nobody ever offered to pay for the photocopying or even the postage. Thereafter I decided that asking for a small fee was a reasonable request.
Happy hunting
Neil Rhind
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 351
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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Dear Natalie and Neil Rhind,
I am grateful , Natalie, for your contacting Neil Rhind and getting his version of just why he wrote up his Blackheath/Druitt research, onto the Casebook boards for us all.
And thanks, I think, goes to a patient Neil Rhind
for his pioneering work on Eliot Place schools and Blackheath's historical and architectural past.His Casebook dissertation on the Valentine's school is ground-breaking.
I can imagine Neil's frustration with a constant stream of inquirers, often involving
costly postage, requiring copies of this and that, and them not willing to do their own leg-work. Quite likely Neil's hard-won researches, at first generously shared, have been pillaged and plagiarised by later authors. Who then derived profit and kudos undeserving.
But, as Chris Phillips and Robert Charles Linford have said, Fifteen Pounds Sterling is a lot to pay
when compared with John Leighton's book on Montague Druitt.(That is the very price of Leighton's book).
I think Neil, what people would like to know, is, how much of your Blackheath local historical research, as included in your proffered paper, deals with non-related (immediately) Blackheath matters?
Now, given that Neil has retired, (and I have no way of knowing if he is still physically fit),I should like to suggest perhaps Neil might like to conduct a guided tour of his Blackheath? For interested parties.I will be visiting Britain from Australia from mid May to mid June, and would love an opportunity to learn of Druitt's Blackheath through Neil Rhind's eyes!
Perhaps we have left all this too late.I hope not though, and congratulate Neil on his pioneering work, which deserves greater reward.
Chris Phillips' idea that we all club in and buy the Rhind paper would not be as rewarding as a Q&A session (for a fee) with Neil.
What do you think, Neil? Natalie? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1670
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Well actually John I think its a very good suggestion.
Comparitively little is known about this area of research and if Neil as a historian of excellent repute could situate these persons and this place in their Victorian context through such a talk that would surely be valuable and helpful currently as well as an instructive
basis for any further information that may come to light regarding MJ Druitt. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 353
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 3:13 am: |
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Thanks Natalie,
I wonder how many people spotted the deliberate mistake in my last posting? I attributed the Casebook Dissertation on THE VALENTINE SCHOOL to the illustrious Neil Rhind, and whilst his "Jack The Ripper" - The Blackheath Connection" 1989 ( unpublished) is cited, the actual author was Stawell Heard.Apologies.
Glad you like the idea Natalie. Of course, we mustn't take Mr Rhind for granted. I hope he gets to hear of these postings... |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1673
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 6:45 am: |
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Hi John,
I did notice but decided to leave it.As I understand it Stawell Heard did give due credit
regarding "The Blackheath Connection" which drew quite heavily on Neil Rhind"s work.
Look, all I know is the information I received from the curator and another librarian at Greenwich Heritage Centre.Both had heard Mr Rhind speak ,a number of times as I understood it, and thought him an excellent local historian
who they both warmly recommended and suggested we got in touch with which I did.
I have also two brief letters from Mr Rhind one of which had the above letter of explanation attached which I posted for him as he was having difficulties getting through.
I hope this clarifies my role in this matter.
Natalie |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 354
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 4:51 am: |
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No reflection on you Natalie, you've cleared a log-jam which has been there for some time, and done so diplomatically and effectively. Good on you.Thanks for your practical solution.
I think I can understand some of Mr Rhind's
frustration at how his good efforts have been used .
I reckon he deserves to be called " Mr Rhind" , as a mark of esteem!(Again no hidden meaning in that comment). |
Jeff Leahy
Sergeant
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:09 am: |
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Hi Druit thread
I was just wondering if anybody new the exact location of Druits body when it was discovered?
Druit had a ticket to Hammersmith and four rocks in his pocket. The inquest into his death was held at Chiswick.
Is it possible that a policeman in the 1960's would have known about Druits conection to the Ripper murders? Would this have been general knowledge and Druit the main suspect at the time?
Could Hammersmith Bridge link the Strippers first two victims to the Ripper case?
Interestingly enough although Hannah Tailford was known as a Westend girl. The police questioned her partner Allan Lynch about her conection to Brick lane. They obviously thought she was working East side of town when she was abducted.
Of corse it is probably coincidence but if the Stripper was an ex cop with a grudge for not getting promoted to the CID. Could he have been taunting the police with the location of Hannah Tailfords body and that of Druits?
Jeff |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 750
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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Jeff
As far as I know Druitt's identity wasn't common knowledge at the time of Hannah Tailford's murder in 1964. Some details had been broadcast by Dan Farson in 1959, but his name had been suppressed at Lady Aberconway's request.
Druitt's identity, together with some press reports of the inquest, was published by Tom Cullen in 1965.
Whether Farson's broadcast included the exact location where Druitt's body was found I don't know, but I doubt it. The most detailed inquest report, in the Acton, Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette, wasn't discovered by David Anderson until some time after the broadcast. The details were published by Farson in 1972.
Chris Phillips
(Message edited by cgp100 on March 15, 2005) |
Jeff Leahy
Sergeant
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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Many thanks Chris
I think I'll have to stick to interesting coincidence rather than any meaning. Dont supose you know the exact place Druits body was found?
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4242
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Hi Jeff
He seems to have been found floating off Thorneycroft's Wharf.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on March 15, 2005) |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 356
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 6:23 am: |
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Hello Jeff,
On one of the previous Druitt threads, someone (sorry cannot recall who: possibly Chris Scott)
placed an Ordinance map of 1880's(?) Chiswick on Casebook.
I noticed, not only the location where the body was brought ashore was called Church Wharf (a church is visible nearby), but also a Sewerage Works.
Thorneycroft's Torpedo Works was also in the vicinity.
Just type "Thorneycroft" into the "Search" window
on the Message Boards Page.
Actually, despite Daniel Farson's assertion to the contrary, he did reveal the Druitt name in the media in Melbourne in 1961. But it was a general publicity reference; that he was looking for people called Druitt- Robert or Lionel- in Melbourne, but they neither was the Ripper.
Tom Cullen seems to have traced Druitt using Farson's image of the (unnamed) Druitt's death certificate - name crossed out on the TV film- and alleges he, Cullen, gained access to the Aberconway version of the Macnaghten memo.
Also, some unnamed person made off with Farson's valuable cache of primary documents from the ITV Television House canteen, or from Farson's inexperienced secretary, in late 1959.
Hope this helps. |
Jeff Leahy
Sergeant
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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Robert and John many thanks.
I was unable to find a map on the link you gave me. Any ideas if anyone would have a map of the Thames around this area for 1888 and also 1964. Is there a cartographers in London?
I'm trying to work out how close this is to the Foreshore, landing stage of corinthian Sailing Club, Upper Mall. Where Hannah Tailfords body was found.
Realize theres no connection but Druit might be an interesting way of mentioning the Ripper crimes while were down by Hammersmith Bridge.
Many thanks again
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4245
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:31 pm: |
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Jeff, go to David Andersen's posts August 25th and 26th on this thread.
Robert |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 2:13 pm: |
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Hi Jeff.
According to the JTR A-Z, Druitt was fished out of the Thames "Off Thorneycrofts Torpedo Works, Chiswick". If anyone knows where THAT stood, it appears to be the nearest location. I haven't read anything more descriptive than that.
Best wishes Jeff.
DAVID C. |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 10:11 am: |
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Hi Natalie.
This is just to say well done for your excellent work on the subject of Mr.Rhind's paper.
I have always found your posts to be polite, sensible, constructive, & very interesting. A pleasure to read in fact.
Keep them coming.
Best wishes Natalie.
DAVID C. |
Neil Rhind
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:04 pm: |
|
Dear Everybody
Many thnaks for all your kind words on the web-site. Your confusion with Mr Heard's epistle and my research is understandable. To be fair Staywell did acknowledge my help very warmly.
I would be happy to conduct a Blackheath Ripper walk but it will largely be architectural and short of getting actors to dress up I doubt we will meet any of the protagonists. Because I am having a by-pass operation early in May my perambulation will have to be no earlier than say mid September, just to be on the safe side. When I have a moment I will post the Wedekind theory (just to annoy) on this message board sometime soon, say the Easter weekend.
All the best - Neil |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4253
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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Hi Neil
Thanks for that. The most important thing is that you get this operation safely behind you.
Good luck with it.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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Hi Neil,
Looking forward to reading the Wedekind theory.
Also the walk sounds a really great idea-when you are fully recovered.
Wishing you all the very best meanwhile,
Natalie |
