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  | Archive through May 28, 2005 | Carolyn | 50 | 1 | 5-28-05 1:33 am |
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Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 428
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 4:06 pm: | 
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"Do the arrangement of Chapman's possessions and the strange cuts made to Eddowes' face hold some special significance for him? Is it a code of some kind that we are meant to decipher? "
There's another possibility, Erin. There may indeed be a "code" but that "code" may have made sense only to Jack. Sometimes you see a mad person scribbling furiously into a notebook, and a peek over the shoulder reveals what appears to be nonsense, and it is -- except to the author.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Fuchhur Skok
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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Hi everybody,
I am new to this page and have only come over this internet page by chance when I was trying to plan a holiday in London 1 month ago.
Now reading everything on JTR i must say it is quite fasinating and I would just like to write down my thouhts and opinions on the case.
Firstly has anyone noticed that Nicholls,Chapmann,Stride and Kelly had lived very close to one another ? They did not have to know one another well but probably knew each other by face. I think JTR also lived in the streets there and also knew girls at least by face and I presume he chose these four girls for his plan.
He killed Nicholls a bit further away as it was his first attempt. I could imagine on the night when they met Nicholls thought " oh look the nice chap from next door maybe he could spare me penny"
She offered herself he said yes, she turned around
and then it happened. He must have been excited trying his first experiment. So that why I guess this is the reason why she only many carefully cuts over her body. Afterwards he walked down Bucks Road towards Bakers and then into hanbury St and into one of the back street home again.
On Chapmann I must agree with Phil Hil that he must have known the backyard of 29 hanbury street very well that why I think he must have lived there to have known the place. He felt more comforted when he got to work here.
On the eve of the murder of Stride he must have had shock as he was almost caught, probably just escaping in the very last minute climing over some wall into the backyards. His adrenalin running high finding himself back on the main street Commercial Road walking fast and feeling pretty angry of not finishing his job. In his thoughts he suddenly is chatted up by another whore who is asking him why he is in a hurry ? Didn´t he fancy a bit of company ? It is Catherine Eddowes who had just come out of prison and wandering what she could do as next and saw this man coming to her in a hurry she took the chance.JTR still very angry and still very much adrenalin in his blood, thinks
and smiles ans says yes, now he can finish his thing. They go into Mitre Square and bingo. Through the adrenalin and anger he works very violently and faster than usual. He is so bad tempered he slashes her face, in his eyes Catherine was not planed. Again when we look at the street map we can follow his footsteps a bit by knowing that he had dropped that apron on Goulston street going towards the area of Hanbury street.
After this I think he felt a bit unshure and thats why we did not hear anything of him in October.
My next thought is that he may have known Barnett ?
Maybe they were good friends and Barnett trusted him his problems with Mary Jane. Maybe JTR fancied Mary Jane and in secret always wanted her? When Barnett told him about the fight, the breaking of the window and he leaving her he saw his chance. Through Barnett he knew her ways and probably even knew that now and again another whore lived with her. On the night he watched Mary Jane from the dark and when the man had left the place he waited
a bit and then entered the room by opening the door over the broken window ( which he knew from Barnett, that is if they were friends?) Mary jane is lying on her bed asleep and happily drunk. Maybe she registeres him and thinks it´s Barnett or maybe she reconises him a the friend of Barnett. Jack stands infront full of excitment and gets to work. Mary jane is so drunk she does not realise at first what is happening with her. Then she comes to herself and sees herself slit up, she screams "murder" and jack slits her neck and finishes his work. He was able to work in comfort in this room and could comlpete his final dream or whatever he thought was important. In the early hours he left by closing the door quitley and washing his hands at the water pump next to the house.
I think that JTR did not hate the women but liked them. Whatever he proposed I do not know with his murders. With Mary jane I really think he could have fancied her, maybe he slitted her face because he wanted to take her pretty face with him, so he could look at it forever and believe that she was his. Maybe he masturbated over her dead body and felt complete power over her?
jack in my thoughts must have been a man between 30-35 strong with a plane face, friendly but noone really noticed him, so he dissapeared in the crowd of Whitechapel.
Hope to have given further thoughts here on the boarder and would be interested what you think of my verdicct.
kind regards
Debbie
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Erin
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 43
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 2:04 pm: |
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I was wondering where this thread ran off to! For a while I was afraid I had imagined it.
As far as the ritualistic elements of the murders representing a code only Jack understood, I suspect that Sir Robert is correct, although I think it's possible that we will one day unravel the "clues" he intentionally or unintentionally left us.
At any rate, it occurred to me recently that these "ritualistic behaviors" Jack appeared to demonstrate could be interpreted as quasi-autistic. Please not, I am NOT by any means trying to posthumously diagnose Jack as autistic. I am merely pointing out that the oddly repetitive, seemingly compulsive behaviors he performed at certain scenes could reflect the obsessive need for order that characterizes many of the disorders that fall under the umbrella of autism.
Now, I am not talking Rain Man, here. Individuals suffering from Asperger's Syndrome, for example, have normal intelligence and language skills but frequently exhibit an "obsessive interest in a single object or topic to the exclusion of any other" as well as "repetitive routines or rituals; peculiarities in speech and language; socially and emotionally inappropriate behavior and the inability to interact successfully with peers; problems with non-verbal communication; and clumsy and uncoordinated motor movements," (http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/asperger/asperger.htm).
I should point out, however, that autistic behaviors are not confined to those suffering from the various forms of autism. Quasi-austitic behaviors, ranging from mild to severe, often occur in individuals who were raised in institutions such as orphanages. While such modern institutions may have safeguards in place to prevent or at least minimize such behaviors, Dickens has demonstrated the appalling conditions of orphanages in the late Victorian period. I can just imagine the shock an individual coming out of such a place might experience when they came of age and were simply turned out into the world.
Please understand, these are just some random thoughts of a very subjective nature. While the behaviors Jack demonstrated at some of the murders scenes can be characterized as "quasi-autistic," it does make them so, nor, as I said before, does it imply a definite attempt at a diagnosis on my part. Perhaps those actions which I perceive as ritualistic may not be that way at all, and even if they are, their presence does not necessarily indicate any sort of major mental disorder.
P.S. I am well aware that there have been discussions of autism in the Barnett threads. This post should not be viewed as an endorsement of his candidacy as a suspect. 
(Message edited by rapunzel676 on June 24, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2228
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Long time no see, Erin.
You just about managed to sum me up there, for I have all the indicators you provide.
I must study my ritualistic behaviour.
An excellent post with lots to think on.
Nice to see you around again. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
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Well even funnier I started off a post saying the same AP!Except that I was going to add to my own that I seem to have quite a severe case of attention deficit disorder as well!
But I deleted my post because it looked like I was being facetious and Erin raises an interesting question here.
Natalie |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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It seems to me that we have always tried to approach this mystery from Jack's perspective. I am wondering if attempting to see it from the prostitutes perspective would help us to see things in a different light. I am not even sure where I am going with this but here are some questions that come to mind.... Were the prostitutes in Whitechapel friendly with each other or did they keep to themselves? Would they have shared stories about a customer who was behaving strangely or who frightened them? Would they have been particulary leery of going off with anyone who appeared to be a foreigner or of Jewish appearance? Would they have attempted to arm themselves with a knife or other weapon? Would they have refused to engage in any form of sexual activity where they would have to turn their backs on a customer? Would they want to be somewhere where they knew a cry for help would be heard or would their fear of being arrested override that? Just some thoughts.
c.d. |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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I'm not sure that we can draw the conclusion that Jack was in need of money because he apparently attempted to get his money back from his victims. It's possible that his motivation was something like "I'll be damned if I am giving anything to some filthy whore." He might even have been amused that he could so easily take back what he had given. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:36 am: |
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Hi c.d,
I agree that the sort of man who could murder and mutilate unfortunates would not be the sort to throw money away on their dead bodies - whether he was filthy rich or as poor as his victims.
But I think Jack may have struck at the point where money would otherwise have changed hands. "Just let me get my nise shiny - er, pennies - out of my pocket, my dear", and wallop! Nighty-night.
Love,
Caz
X |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 449
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
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I hesitate to try to get "inside" Jack's mind, but I could see how the coins he was offering his victims would make nice trophies. I doubt he took back the coins as a money saving gesture; he might have gotten his jollies with the coins jangling in his pockets the next day.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2268
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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I could see him sliding out the same gold sovereign time and time again, a jewel in the crown of all that old copper and nickel silver, and sliding it back in his pocket while saying 'you won't regret it'.
Such a shiny thing amongst all that muck and filth.
He probably took their coppers and flung 'em to the far corners of the world.
And then went home and drank a good red wine out of a presentation cup, and wrote a bit. |
Erin
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 46
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 12:05 am: |
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Hi all! It's good to be back. BTK and my bad back had me distracted for a while. Actually my back has me distracted all of the time, but that's neither here nor there.
I had to laugh at yours and Natalie's responses, A.P., because I could say the same for myself! I suppose we all have our own unique set of ritualistic behaviors. There is a certain security in routine; we are all, in some sense, continually trying to create order out of the chaos that is life. What separates the obsessive, compulsive, ritualistic behaviors exhibited by the average neurotic (such as myself) from those of the autistic or quasi-autistic person is the degree to which they are manifested and the relative importance such behaviors assume in an individual's life. I suppose what I'm trying to say, in my own convoluted way, is that it's not necessarily the behaviors that differ, just the degree of severity. The common denominator may very well be the same.
This is not to say that the experiences of such individuals are similar to ours. Many autistics experience a kind of "sensory overload" which can become quite painful. One or more senses may be particularly enhanced, so much so that everyday sounds, sights, and smells are excruciatingly painful to the autistic, often prompting them to strike out, sometimes violently, in an attempt to remove the painful stimuli.
It is my belief that the quasi-autistic behaviors exhibited by formerly institutionalized children have a similar source: After spending their lives in an environment of tremendous deprivation, the ordinary world can seem overwhelming and frightening to these individuals once they are released into it.
So how does this all this apply to Jack? A great deal of the inspiration for the idea of a quasi-autistic Ripper came from several posts A.P. made a while back. A Grevy stallion, kept in isolation for most of its life, was suddenly released into a group of mares, upon which he unleashed a good deal of violence and destruction. Now, I'm aware that people are a good deal more intellectually sophisticated than Grevy stallions, but I believe that the underlying principle, in this case at least, is much the same. Consider this: An orphaned (or perhaps illegitimate) Jack, who is probably already wired wrong, spends his formative years in an institution. Here he is totally starved of stimulation and emotional connection, possibly even abused by his (female?) caretakers and/or his fellow orphans. Possibly during this period he develops some kind of unhealthy fascination with human anatomy. Upon reaching the age of majority he is thrown into society with little or no preparation for such an enormous change. Like A.P.'s stallion, he reacts with violence. Thus, the murders are not so much the planned and methodical work of a sociopath, but the desperate attempts of an emotionally stunted, socially immature man to restore some sense of "order" to his life. Ultimately, however, he does not succeed and either resolves his inner conflicts (unlikely) or descends into complete madness.
This is all just speculation and may be complete and utter nonsense. I don't know if Jack was autistic, quasi-autistic, or anything else, for that matter. The only clues to his identity I have to work with are the behaviors he exhibited at the crime scenes, and this is just one possible interpretation of those. I don't entirely subscribe to it myself; it is merely my own attempt to create a little order out of the Ripper's chaos. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4627
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 4:09 am: |
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Hi Erin
I'm out of my depth with this psychology stuff, but here's a question : imagine someone (disturbed) who has, so far, managed to control the internal (psychological) and external (social, family, economic) chaos by adopting a series of rituals - almost superstitions - which have upon that person a comforting effect, and also save mental energy by allowing the brain to function partly in robot mode. Then imagine that, for one reason or another, the rituals aren't available - he is not allowed to perform them. Would not such a person feel that he was sailing without a compass, that he was having to make his world anew with each new day? Wouldn't his brain become overloaded, and wouldn't there be an imperative need to either 1. Establish some new rituals or 2. Shut down altogether and go into a kind of trance? Maybe number 1 was the murders, and number 2 the reason they stopped (these new rituals are now no longer available either). By "new rituals" I mean not just the murders, which were the work of a few minutes, but the whole business of walking around at night, and doing - er - whatever he did at night!
Just a speculation, anyway.
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 659
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 8:58 am: |
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Erin.
Just out of curiosity,do you see any link to ritualism with the first four victims [ C5 victims ], that is, the distances between each other and their location on a map of the East End ?
"Ritualism" meaning either some necromantic nonsense or perhaps, a manifestation of premeditated murder[s] by some obsessive/compulsive type ? Or maybe something else that you see that is possible...Thanks !
Hope your back feels better....
HowBrown
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2270
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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Erin
An excellent and provoking post, and you summed up what I was trying to say some time ago so much better than I did.
I think my essential point with the Grevy stallion - which by the way is considered to be the most dangerous animal in captivity and has killed more zoo keepers than any other captive animal - is that its natural urges had been corrupted by long bouts of artificial confinement in an environment that offered the animal no natural selection or choice. The animal had been conditioned to look at the female of his species in a totally corrupted fashion.
The pleasure had become a threat.
Thereby I have always felt that such isolation -whether it be a physically imposed one, or the mental isolation of a self-imposed insecurity - does play a formative role in the behaviour of certain killers, particularly when those killers strike at the female of their species without demanding sexual satisfaction as part of the act.
It must be noted that the Grevy stallion when attacking, and sometimes killing the mares he was mixed with, would always be in a high state of physical arousal, but somehow the wires would be crossed in his chemical make-up, and what was once the normal act of mounting the mare and then almost affectionately nibbling her neck during the act of copulation became instead a vicious act where no actual copulation occurred even though he mounted the mare, but instead the gentle nibbling became a frenzied attack directed against the throat of his victim where he would bring the mare down and then proceed to kick and trample her to death.
Done with that one he would charge across the paddock in an attempt to do exactly the same to another, until restrained and put back in his holding pen, where he would quickly adapt back to his former conditions of confinement, and then could be easily led by harness, and hand fed as well as being groomed… with all the mares in sight beyond his fence, and no longer in a state of arousal.
But open that gate and let him out into the paddock with the mares and you had a killer on your hands.
It was at this point that I took charge of Charlie, as the Grevy stallion was called.
I blanked off his view into the mare’s paddock and outside world by stretching hessian sacking across three sides of his enclosure, and then moved a placid mare into the next door enclosure to him which I did not blank off, allowing him unlimited contact with the mare through the fence.
For the first few days he rushed the fence, actually bit into the heavy chain-wire, and even attempted to batter the fence down, but after four days the two animals began to socialise through the fence, within two weeks they were sharing a hay sack, and after four weeks I was able to let the stallion into the mare’s enclosure where proper copulation took part without any injury to the mare, the stallion nibbling her neck as normal during copulation.
The owner of the captive Grevy herd was so overjoyed with the result that he determined immediately to let the stallion rejoin his herd of mares so that he could have a fine bevy of young Grevy zebras the next year to sell for the extortionate price they command in the zoo world.
‘No way,’ I told him. ‘He will kill them.’
The owner ignored my advice, put the stallion back with the herd and he immediately killed a mare.
After penning the stallion back in his enclosure, I let the single mare - that I had associated him with over a period of a month - join him and they began a gentle flirting game and eventually settled down to enjoy a hay bag together.
It is association and education.
I see Jack the Ripper in the soul of a confined Grevy stallion. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2148
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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AP,although I can see the role of repression and social isolation here and that its consequences could to some degree be translated from grevy stallion to ourselves ,I dont really believe a man who kills and mutilates women with such calculated panache and outlandish
signature work can be compared with the distressed animalin this particular case. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1916
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 5:04 am: |
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And of course, the poor beast would not have waited for total privacy, as Jack did, before striking the poor mares...
Love,
Caz
X |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2272
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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For once, Natalie, I fear we must disagree, as I cannot see the crimes of Jack being of ‘calculated panache and outlandish signature work’, on the contrary I have always seen them as the reckless blundering of a child let loose in the toy shop.
He blows tin trumpets and stabs them with his toy dagger.
I feel the essential point I have been attempting to make is that social conditioning plays a role in the make-up of such killers, in other words a killer like Jack could be quite comfortable in a home situation where he has constant female company but does not feel a destructive urge to attack or kill those females, however when he is put down in the paddock and approached by stranger females for sexual purposes his reaction might be a violent one, especially if he has been taught by the dominating females in his household that such creatures of the night are nowt but pure filth.
The sting in the tail is that as he hacks and destroys the filth in the streets who approach him for immoral purpose, he slowly realises that the species at home is the same one as on the street, and then grabs his aunt or mother and attempts to slit their throats.
Think Gein here.
Think Cutbush here.
Of course I do agree with you that it is hard to relate the badly wired behaviour of a stallion - that was conditioned to an isolated role as a circus performer - to that of a serial killer, but I think it worth the effort.
I mean what should have been Nirvana to that stallion: a paddock full of receptive females with no escape, became a living hell for him and them, simply because the stallion had been conditioned to total isolation, and somehow that crossed those wires that burn so fiercely when it comes to evolution, and the stallion chose total destruction… that is until he was shown that there was another route to follow.
Jack slaughtered a whore and went home for a cup of tea with his mum who had been waiting up all night for him.
He didn’t slaughter his mum because she had provided him with a hay bag, a bit of hessian sacking and some time.
Out on the street he was in the paddock.
Actually Caz, the male zebra would run into the herd and isolate one specific female then hunt her down with a determination that was incredible to behold. I assume the female he chose smelt right.
In a higher state of arousal than the others.
Her approach, even though biological, was forward, so she chose herself if you like.
It is not privacy, it is isolation.
Think of the barracuda when he picks a target out of a massive school of prey fish, he doesn’t dash into the mass, he treads water until one isolates itself from the school and then he snaps it up.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2149
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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If we are thinking in terms of Thomas Cutbush,AP,
then I am not sure I see him in quite the same way.
I know that his mother and aunt caused some official eyebrows
to be raised among those who visited them about TC and that this was on account of their hysterical reactions, nervousness and state of alarm about TC.And I can see one or two other reported remarks suggest a lot of over protective nonsense.
However I cant see this in itself being sufficient to cause a character such as JtR to murder and mutilate in the way he did.
For example JtR seems to have taken great care to select very poor,mostly middle aged , homeless, alcoholic women who would have been unlikely to put up much of a fight.He also elected to kill his victims through strangulation and throat cutting. When he began his mutilations
he targeted certain organs and areas of the reproductive organs and appears to have "posed" his victims perhaps to stress their vulgarity in choosing
to sell their bodies-who knows?
No one can be sure what his meaning was in all this,whether it was due to some form of psychosis or
whether it was a compulsion linked to a sexual
fantasy he chose to act out ,but I myself cant ,at present ,see these killings as in anyway "playful"-playful that is
as in being let loose in a toy shop or due to him simply being "autistic"-although I agree that Thomas could well have been autistic as a child.
However I will defer to you now over this because I know that you have studied a lot of cases of serial killing and have a depth and breadth of knowledge and experience about SK"s and what moves them that puts my feeble knowledge and understanding about SK"S and their motives to shame.
Natalie
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2273
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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Not at all, Natalie, what you say makes uncommon good sense, and I am by no means entrenched in my view of TC's background history and family influence... and 'feeble' is a word I would never use in association with your sterling efforts in this case.
It is but a playground where we exchange views and ideas; and as we all know that is exactly where the real decisions about life on this planet are made.
Yes, you are right, the women that Jack 'mostly' killed were not successful members of their chosen school, and sort of slipped out of the net to wander the streets at night because they couldn't even afford a bed for the night. They isolated themselves through their inability to perform as part of the mass.
The 'school' was comfortably tucked up in bed for the night with their respective 'tricks'.
Jack the barracuda was just waiting for one fish to isolate itself, the chances are that it would be an old and very hungry fish who left the school to find something to eat, because it couldn't keep up anymore with the anti-predatory movements of the school.
Never defer to me again, Natalie, I'm just some old drunk who wants to stop serial killers from killing. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2732
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
|
AP
Was intrigued by the Grevys story and continue to be! Where did this wonderful story happen??
Suzi x |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2274
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
|
Suzi
a long time ago when this wolf was a so called 'expert' on wolf, and other animal behaviour.
The 'Soul of the White Ant' was me bible.
The stallion came from Holland and I met him in Hampshire.
The Grevy is one of the rarest animals on our planet. A lovely animal.
They have a herd at Whipsnade, bred from a stallion called 'Simon', who I bred back in the late 70's. His father was called 'Charlie'. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4633
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
|
AP, when discussing the idea of his suspecting that the women at home resemble the women outside, we have that unknown quantity to factor in as well - namely, Mr Petrolie.
Robert
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2151
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
|
AP,I won"t defer to you again just so long as you
won"t refer to yourself as "some old drunk who wants to stop serial killers from killing".
As I have said before,and quite apart from the vast range of knowledge you bring to us here, the alcohol you talk of so disparagingly also deserves
some recognition.
I believe Orpheus used alcohol in his descent into hell - to access the subconscious reaches of his mind and get a glimpse of his dead wife.No matter that she eluded him-as Jack eludes us!
Anyway his song calmed all the wild beasts of the forest and your dear old grevy stallion would have loved him!
No AP you are in the good company of your fellow poets with your SSB-from Arthur Rimbaud and his season in hell on his drunken boat, -to the quest for the man himself,-presumably now stoking up the furnace there!
Just watch the old kidneys dont get sacrificed!
Natalie
Ps Charlie must have been a beauty! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2275
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
|
By God, Robert, you have solved the case with a single stroke!
Petrolie was obviously a male Grevy zebra in disguise. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4635
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
|
AP, Petrolie a zebra? I don't think it's as black and white as that.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2276
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
|
The Grevy has a bit of brown to its shading as well, so not all black and white.
Seriously, Robert, your point about Petrol Head is a very good one... as the man of the house he must have had some influence and bearing on the situation. After all, he would have hardly lived with a knife wielding Thomas ready to slit someone's throat if they caught him looking in the mirror, unless he had damn good reason to do so.
How long was he an item at the Cutbush house?
He can't be simply ignored, although I have initiated several searches for him, I found nada. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4637
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 1:24 pm: |
|
AP, he's buried somewhere in the Cutbush threads, but from memory he was with them in 1891, and then actually followed them when they moved house, appearing with them in the 1901 census.
Given that
1. Kate (or less likely, Clara) may have had a certain tendresse for Petrolie
2. Being Italian, the odds favour his being Catholic
3. A certain policeman had a distinct antipathy to Catholics
then I can imagine it may not have been an altogether happy home - quite apart from any jealousies on THC's part.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2157
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 9:45 am: |
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Hi AP,
I thought you might like this:I was listening to radio 4 this morning when I heard another lovely story about Wild Animals,this time about orphan elephants.I only tuned in on my way to work so missed a good part of it but a woman was being interviewed about a book just published called "Elephant Diaries".It made me long to go and work with these rather frail little elephants
who for a little while before they are released back into the wild become part of the human family
and dont need any coaxing to stay.A particular anecdote reported was hoe even though these youngsters havent yet acquired their elephant language they know how to be empathetic to other baby elephants who are orphaned and can be seen gently
stroking the cheek of the distressed orphan with their trunks and befriending them .
Apparently they learn to understand English in these conditions before they learn their own language,which they do a bit later between the ages of two and three.
Sometimes I am reminded of those words of Walt Whitman that begin:"I think I could learn to live with animals,they are so placid and so self contained." |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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Hi CD.
Another solid thought! It is important to understand the women, It is the key to understanding why Jack was so succesful. The women took him to the place that they knew interuption was least likely. They made a habbit of avoiding the police. They knew the streets better then anyone. They may have known if a PC was a slacker, and took his time walking the beat. The woman did not want to get caught either.
Prostitution has not changed much in the last 116 years. A person offers another Person some money, then they find a private place. I feel the woman were desperate for money, and would have went off with any man regardless of what he looks like. I have heard it both ways, the man must have looked respectable. The man must have looked like he fit in. Mary Kelly would never let a strnge man in her room. Pardon my language, but rubbish. The women would go off with anyone, unless he had on a hockey mask, and was holding a machete. The reason serial killers kill prostitutes is they go off with people they do not know.
Life in the eastend was such a struggle for some woman. It was either walk the streets or starve. I am not sure witch detective it was. Either Anderson or Macnaughten told story of how he heard a woman say that she would rather meet her end by Jack then spend another day in poverty. I am sure that no one wanted to be killed by Jack, but the story shows just how depressed the women were. They had to have the money, and if jack was going to get them, so be it. That is why it was so hard to protect the unfortunates. They were going out on the street regardless.
It wont happen to me. I have been swimming in the ocean all my life. A shark will not attack me. It just wont happen to me. I hope the shark knows that. Women in the eastend probably thought that Jack is not going to get me. I am too smart. I am too carefull. and if he trys something, I will give him what for. Alot of people think that nothing bad is going to happen to them. I do not know why? I am sure that played right into Jacks hands.
From what I have read, the prostitutes were friendly with eachother. Kelly took some in, and gave them shelter. That is why her boyfriend moved out. They probably saw eachother around. Were they friendly? I think Kelly may have had some problems with the older prostitutes. She was younger, and by most acounts good looking. She may have been resented. It is in womans nature to be a little catty. I apologise to the women on the board who are the exception.
Inspector Dew paints a colorful picture of life in the eastend. You might want to read his story. You can find it hear at the Casebook.
Your friend, Brad |
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