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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Suspects » Stephenson, Roslyn Donston » Jack was two men, not one. « Previous Next »

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Percival Westerbrook
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Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 9:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

1. Francis Tumblety did not have the surgical skill to, so meticulously, remove organs as described of the Whitechappel killer.

2. He would not have known the satanic rituals involved. While Robert Donston Stephenson did. Positioning of the bodies along with the choice of organs removed points toward ritual.

3. It is possible that Frederick Townsend aided Stephenson in faking documentation pointing toward an illness later used as an alibi. Tumblety also used the name Townsend as an alias. Has a connection between the two ever been established? Could Tumblety be related to Frederick Townsend?

4. A single man would not have gone unobserved in Whitechappel during the period of the murders. Men traveling in pairs were left alone with the prostitutes. Single gentlemen were closely observed, yet Jack managed to elude the authorities.

Iím sure much can be found connecting these two men to one another, if an investigator were inclined to look. It has been over 100 years since the murders, and suspects come and go. The order of the top ten change like the seasons. Some of the greatest criminologists of the last century have tried to nail down a clear cut suspect, and failed. Tumblety was good at pretending to be a doctor, but you canít pretend to be a surgeon. Tumblety began his Indian herb doctor con at the youthful age of 17, and that is all he was for some time. Without some kind of training he could never have gained the skills necessary to be considered a surgeon rather than a butcher in the Ripper case. Stephenson learned his surgical skills in Africa. Also, consider the Kelly murder in contrast to the other four. Some speculated that it might have been a copycat killing, because the surgical prowess was not as great. Perhaps a clever way to change the scent of the killerís tracks. I believe it is possible that Stephenson and Tumblety worked together, and I would welcome opinions from you. Good day to one and all.
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3012
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Percival,

1. No surgical skills was necessary at all in the Ripper murders. Handy with a knife and some anatomical knowledge and perhaps curiosity -- yes, but surgical skill, no.
That doesen't say that the ripper wasn't a doctor, but in many mutilation cases like these, they have usually been done by people who have no medical training whatsoever; crime history is littered with this.

2. Although it can't be ruled out completely, there are absolutely no proof whatsoever of that satanic rituals were involved in the Ripper murders. Mostly these types of murders are -- from what we know so far -- done from some sort of sexual gratification, then on second place comes delusions or mania.
Still, we can only speculate until we're blue in the face why the Riper did the things he did -- we can't look into his mind in retrospect -- but although religious mania or rituals could be involved, there is really nothing that suggests it without doubt.

3. No idea. There is really nothing that suggests that Donston and Tumblety did know each other, unless we want to wade in deep waters of unfounded speculations.

4. I can't agree with this. If we disregard the Schwartz testimony, not witness statement points to more than one persons involved. Elizabeth Long saw one man -- Lawende saw ne man etc etc. (regardless if those were the killer or not, but i certainly believe Long's man was). I think two men would have attracted more attention; it is easier for one man to disappear than two, so I don't give any credence to the "two men" theory whatsoever.

As far as Donston is concerned, I consider him an interesting suspect, but apparently he was a patient at the London Hospital during the murders. I fail to see how he could have sneaked out unnoticed on several occasions in the middle of the night to commit the murders, maybe even with blood stains on him. Seems questionable.

All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Percival Westerbrook
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two Rippers would provide a better alibi. Also, while one committed the crime, the other could keep watch. And considering Whitechappel was patrolled by itís regular contingent of police, investigators from Scotland Yard, and members of the American CID, looking for one chap, I think it is more than reasonable to speculate that it would have been safer to hunt in pares, rather than prowl as a lone wolf. As for satanic ritual is concerned, are you familiar with them? Why were the first four bodies placed so they would point north, south, east and west? By using a map and drawing a line from point to point where bodies were found, why are two equilateral triangles revealed? A different organ was removed from each victim. The kidneys, a womb, a heart and the genitalia. Each of these things are common in satanic ritual. And in regards to Stephensonís stay at the London Hospital, he was hardly someone who could draw the attention of the hospital staff away from Joseph Carey Merrick, more commonly referred to as the Elephant Man. Merrick was that hospitalís celebrity guest during the Ripper murders. Stephenson could easily slip out for a midnight stroll if he wanted. Before you close the book, you should look at every page. Good day.
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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton

Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Mr Westerbrook

You ask a very good question:
" Why were the first four bodies placed so they would point north, south, east and west?"

The simple answer is of course they weren't!

If you draw two lines connecting Nicholls and Eddowes, and then Stride and Chapman and take the point of intersection as being the base point you will see that none of the bodies conform to the cardinal points of the compass.

Here are the approximate directions from base point:

Nicholls NE
Chapman NNW
Stride SE
Eddowes SW

You are also clutching at straws when we come to the actual victims. What happens to your theory if Stride is not a Ripper victim - and there is plenty of evidence to suggest she was not.

Even if she was, the accepted theory is that Eddowes was a sort of extra victim because he couldn't do a proper Ripper job on Stride.

So for your theory to be correct you would have to accept that Stride was a Ripper victim and that Eddowes just by good luck happened to be in exactly the right place for your pattern - because don't forget Eddowes wasn't meant to be killed that night.

You say the pattern formed are two equalateral triangles. This is wrong. This only happens if you draw lines connecting Stride Eddowes Chapman, and Stride Nicholls Chapman.

If you draw other lines you get different patterns eg.

Connect Nicholls, Chapman, Eddowes and Stride you get a parallelogram.

Connect Nicholls Eddowes then Nicholls Chapman, then Nicholls Stride and you get an arrow pointing towards the London Hospital ( yes I know it wasn't there then)

Connect Nicholls Eddowes then Stride Eddowes and Chapman Eddowes and you get an arrow pointing towards the Houses of Parliament.

Hang on a minute. Triangles, arrows, and parallelograms are all mathmatical symbols. Should we be looking for a mathmatician? Wait a minute Lewis Carroll was a mathmatician - Case solved!

You see how easy it is to get completely carried away.

Lets have a game. How many patterns can you make?

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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3028
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Percival,

Do you ever read the answers you get? You probably only addressed one or two of my points above. One wonders why you even bother to post.

"Two Rippers would provide a better alibi. Also, while one committed the crime, the other could keep watch. And considering Whitechappel was patrolled by itís regular contingent of police, investigators from Scotland Yard, and members of the American CID, looking for one chap."

And, STILL, no witness reports gives evidence of this (if we disregard Schwartz), no matter how you turn and twist it.

"As for satanic ritual is concerned, are you familiar with them? Why were the first four bodies placed so they would point north, south, east and west? By using a map and drawing a line from point to point where bodies were found, why are two equilateral triangles revealed?"

That is just simply ridiculous.regardless if you're studying geographical profiling (which is a questionable effort) or satanic rites, you can practically -- as Bob states -- come up with any pattern you like, in order to make it fit your expectations. Besides, it also all depends on who was a Ripper victim and who wasn't -- if anyone of the women would turn out not to be victims of the ripper, the so called pattern would break and become totally worthless.
Until it has been fully established -- which will never happen, by the way -- who were victims by the same hand, looking for patterns is a useless and redundant exercise. You're looking for things that aren't there, my friend.

"A different organ was removed from each victim. The kidneys, a womb, a heart and the genitalia."

No, I think you should read up on the case a bit more, and this time without personal preferences and presumptions.
The womb was taken in two of the victims! Eddowes (a part of it) and Chapman! In Eddowes' case, this was added with the one of the kidneys. In all the popularily attributed canonical victims (if we disregard Stride) the genitalia was the main target.

"And in regards to Stephensonís stay at the London Hospital, he was hardly someone who could draw the attention of the hospital staff away from Joseph Carey Merrick, more commonly referred to as the Elephant Man. Merrick was that hospitalís celebrity guest during the Ripper murders. Stephenson could easily slip out for a midnight stroll if he wanted."

A totally unfounded speculation, and I believe an false one. So you mean that all the staff at the hospital concentrated their attention to Merrick and didn't gave the other patients any attention? Weird hospital. How many employees do you think they had? Two?
And note that Stephenson is supposed to have pulled this off, not once ut several times, coming back with traces of blood and matter on the clothes and without being recognized by the staff in the hospital's entrance hall. How did he get back in? And where did he dispose of the clothes?

Sorry, but you are dreaming way off base here.

All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2051
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I feel a trapezium coming on here!!!!!...mainly because I like the word!!!!

For God's sake given a few sheets of squared paper,a compass a set square a protractor and maybe some dividers... and some serious imagination and a sense of the wicked I can prove ANYTHING......all with geometric back up too probably if need be!!......where's the problem there!!?

Gosh........feel a serious pattern coming on here......could it be a Cat's Cradle maybe.................

Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2052
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 1:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, the only reference to two men I can recall is that of Schwartz.. the man who allegedly threw Stride to the ground, and 'Pipeman'....

Schwartz was ..although a very credible witness was not an English speaker and of Hungarian/Jewish descent and all we have, came through an interpreter of whom we appear to have no knowledge at all,except that presumably he was there when Schwartz gave his information to Swanson on 30th Sept.

As to Schwartz...I dont have a problem with his 'statement' I'm sure he was quite accurate in what he saw....unlike Mr Packer....BUT I cannot accept Liz as one of the canonical five.......It bears all the marks of a 'domestic' and to me (for what that's worth!) doesn't fit!

If I was a murderer....I wouldn't want to think that Schwartz had been My witness though.. thats for sure!


Suzi
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3029
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 1:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sure thing, Suzi.

All excellent points. I agree.

All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil

Post Number: 93
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 3:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As to two men - hasn't there been some speculation about a man asking whether a man and a woman had been seen near Mitre Square, might have been an accomplice?

I don't accept it for a moment, but to be fair, I have seen it discussed.

There is also the point that Scotland Yard might have come to accept an "accomplice" existed - if only someone knowing Jack came home bloodstained. This is suggested by the terms of the post-MJK reward.

None of this adds up to meaning that an accomplice existed, of course.

Phil
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2053
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 3:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Glenn thanks for that!!!!
I cannot.....even in MY wildest dreams I can't dismiss Schwartz as a credible witness,shame he was credited with seeing Liz....!

As to an accomplice....the murders I, and many others accept have the feel of a solitary killer

I may and probably am wrong ..........or right who knows......God wish someone did!

Suzi
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 569
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 7:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

"See the pretty Cat's Cradle" Suzy. Maybe the answer is in Kurt Vonnegut.

I cannot see two killers working so successfully in tandem and not getting caught, unless one killed the other to make sure he (or she) was permanently silenced. If you said Druitt and somebody else I would have a better chance of accepting the idea [not suggesting it was two, one of whom was Druitt - but somebody who died soon after].

There is another thread on this board (under "Shadows of Whitechapel"] regarding Neville Heath. There is a small book I read years ago called PORTRAIT OF A SADIST about Heath (I can't recall the author's name). In it the author suggested a horrific image of a poor young woman having to go down a back street or alley where Heath, Reginald Christie, and John George Haigh are waiting together. The author suggested that it would be a really horrible situation.

When I first read the sentence I was appalled. Then I did the unforgiveable: I considered what would happen. The author was suggesting the three ghouls would do something dreadful to the girl. As I said, at first I felt that they would. Then I began considering how they individually worked.

Heath was a sadistic creep who (with his distinct variations) left the women he destroyed dreadfully mutilated. Christie usually sufficated (choked) his victims, then slept with their dead bodies (he was a necrophile), and then walled them up in his squalid house at 10 Rillington Place, Notting Hill. Haigh usually sized up his victim's possessions and figured out how to get his mitts on them, and then shot them in "quiet" surroundings, and then burned their bodies in acid baths.

Now, with this information about how each committed their killings, and why, try to figure out how they could successfully cooperate against an individual girl meeting all three in an alley, where they are alone with her?

First, Haigh and Heath would be fumbling over each other trying to get the girl's attention to themselves, so they could get to first base in their own plans. Haigh would be boring the girl with questions about her income, her possessions, insurance, stock, bank accounts. Heath would be pulling her away to romance and proposition her. Christie (maybe acting as a wartime constable - as he was, ironically) would be interfering with both of them and the girl, and then suggesting she come to Rillington Place to calm down while he gives her some tea. If they each went to step two (as hard as it would be to believe) problems would emerge about who would go first! Haigh would want to see the woman's home to see where he needed to go to get at her papers and possessions. Heath and Christie wouldn't give a damn about that. Heath would want to tie her up and "have his fun", probably with a sharp poker [which he used by the way]. Christie would object because he would have to sleep with the women when she's dead (and that includes being able to insert himself into the woman - sorry it can't be put more gently). Haigh would tell them they were both jerks. A quick shot in the head and then the vat of acid (which would hardly appeal to a sadist like Heath, and would mean Christie gets absolutely no chance at all). I think, seriously, if this improbable combination had ever been attempted between 1945 and 1946 (after that year Heath was dead), the police would have come into that alley finding a bored woman (possibly talking to Jack the Ripper, who would not be bothering her because she is a "good" girl, not a prostitute), and three idiots fighting over who has a go at her first!

[After I considered this seriously, I considered what if three women entered the alley. It might simplify matters for our trio of ghouls, but if they were say Catherine Wilson, Mrs. Brownrigg, and Belle Gunness - well the permutations of hypothetical results are almost endless.]

Now let's look at Dr. Tumblety and D'Onston Stevenson. Tumblety is a quack, who may have been involved in Lincoln's Assassination, and who is gay. He hates women. D'Onston is an adventurer who is interested in Black Magic. Is Tumblety interested in Black Magic? No evidence of that yet. Is D'Onston into quack medicine?
Only that (if you wish to classify it as quack medicine) that relates to witch doctors and shamens. Did D'Onston ever show an interest in homosexuality? I have not heard of this yet.
D'Onston seemed to thrive on secrecy in his daily life. Can he honestly be seen sharing secrets with the more flamboyant Tumblety, who liked parading in false uniforms? Maybe they could have known each other. There is some evidence I have seen that Heath and Haigh used a pub about the same time, and the wife-murderer Samuel Dougal did use a pub that George Chapman ran for awhile. But knowing each other is not the same as being able to cooperate with each other on a series of murders, and from what I understand neither Tumblety and D'Onston had the temperment necessary to do so with each other.

Sorry that I cannot discuss the matter about Schwartz - I don't know enough about it.

Best wishes,

Jeff
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash

Post Number: 771
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 9:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

he was hardly someone who could draw the attention of the hospital staff away from Joseph Carey Merrick, more commonly referred to as the Elephant Man. Merrick was that hospitalís celebrity guest during the Ripper murders. Stephenson could easily slip out for a midnight stroll if he wanted.

A totally unfounded speculation, and I believe an false one. So you mean that all the staff at the hospital concentrated their attention to Merrick and didn't gave the other patients any attention? Weird hospital.

Yes, I had a fit of the giggles when I read that one too. I had this mental image in my head of poor Joseph sitting in his room minding his own business and the entire staff of the hospital crowded outside his door pointing in and going "oooh!" while behind them a scene out of Hogarth ensued in the rest of the hospital!
"All I know of morality, I learned from football" - Albert Camus
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3032
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 9:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, Alan.

That one gave me real fits. (wink wink) :-)
And oh, yes... I can picture it too.

All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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CB
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Alan,

Your book looks really interesting. Some real impresive comments. I think if there were two rippers involved I doubt that there were two cutters. One man may have been a look out. Remember the suspect John Anderson who they claimed had an acomplise who waited for the ripper with fresh coveralls.

Your friend,CB
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CB
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 6:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Percival,

The idea of an accomplice is not so far fetched. The police did offer a pardon for anyone with information concerning the Kelly murder. They did not offer a reward and assumeing they were not offering to pardon Jack then they may have thought that there was someone else with guilty Knowledge. Abberline would later put forth the idea that the ripper may have been harvesting the organs and tht he may have been obtaining them for someone else. I am not sure I buy the theory.

I am not an expert on Tumblety but I believe that Frank Townsend was just an alias he used when he fled to Newyork Oddly enough a Frank Townsend was arrested in Newyork shortly after Tumblety arrived.

Your Friend,CB
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1524
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr Westerbrook,

4. A single man would not have gone unobserved in Whitechappel during the period of the murders. Men traveling in pairs were left alone with the prostitutes. Single gentlemen were closely observed, yet Jack managed to elude the authorities.

Halse stopped searched two men after Eddowes demise. So your above observation that men in pairs (with prostitutes or not) were left be is incorrect.

As is the statement that single men went unobserved. According to Dew all men were closely observed, especially strangers to the area. Where as the locals were the ones that passed by relatively unharrassed.

Good day,

Monty
:-)
"I thought we'd agreed, I thought we'd talked it out, Now when I try to speak, She says that I don't care, She says I'm unaware, And now she says I'm weak ."- Joe Barnett
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 424
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Monty,

I think you are correct in what you say and that men singly, in pairs or anything short of a tour group would have been observed closely. However, because of another thread (which you recently discovered) I reread Halse's testimony several times and the fact is he just says he stopped two men -- whether they were stopped together or one after the other isn't clear. Just a quibble and doesn't affect your overall point.

Don.


"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2058
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 3:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gosh! hunting in packs.....

Apart from Schwartz and 'pipeman' the only pack witnesses seem to be..
Joseph Lawende, Harry Harris, and Joseph Hyam Levy,who scurrying out of the Imperial Club happened upon the couple in Church Passage.
it appears that Lawende was ahead of the other two , and gave the 'description' which has gone into history and the books of course and he was at the inquest too!Hmmmmmmmm

Alan
That was a serious thought!!!


Mont
I agree...
The locals could well have gone around in grouprs of who knows or cares how many......they were locals and could go as they pleased.. I imagine that a single man or a pair were probably invisible and a gang shall we say was far too threatening for a single copper on the beat to take on!! Maybe he may have scurried around the corner for 'support' but by the time he'd got back I'm sure the 'gang' would have disolved into their various parts......
Maybe by travelling in packs of 3 up there was as they say safety in numbers



Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2061
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 4:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That was GROUPS as I imagine you realised!.I cannot get beyond the fact that 'chummy' in Whitechapel was invisible ,and therefore safe enough...groups of maybe 3 or more may have been seen as a gang ,or some sort of disturbance ,but who knows.........carry on chaps.....Good points here!

Suzi
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1528
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 4:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don,

Very true, thank you for pointing that out.

I would just like to say that both men stopped by Halse were in Wentworth st. Seeing as he mentions he left Mitre sq via Middlesex st to Wentworth and also seeing as Halse stated he was in Goulston st then I conclude that Halse was in a very small part of Wentworth st that linked the two streets (Middlesex and Goulston). Therefore whilst the 2 men may not have been together they were very close to each other.

Obviously though, thats a moot point due to the fact, as you have correctly mentioned, that Halse never stated the men were together.

Cheers,
Monty
:-)
"I thought we'd agreed, I thought we'd talked it out, Now when I try to speak, She says that I don't care, She says I'm unaware, And now she says I'm weak ."- Joe Barnett
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott

Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

Regarding the alignment of murder sites to the cardinal points mentioned above, Bob is quite right to point out that a cross formed from the first four canonical murder sites does not have the victims pointing N,E,S & W.

My understanding is that this idea comes from compass readings taken at the end of the 20th century - however, magnetic north is always moving and in London 1888 it would have been 18 degrees East of 'True North' (True North being determined by the rotation of the earth rather than magnetism). To line up correctly it would have had to be 30 degrees to the East of True North.

However ... IF the murderer had some occult plan then alignments would probably astrological rather than magnetic. And this is interesting. For example, we have two murders committed within an hour of each other, the second being due West, to the inch, of the first. And it is an East - West alignment that would be most significant.


David

PS - I think it quite likely that more than one person was involved.
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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton

Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 6:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear David,

Sorry to disagree with you but the position of Eddowes body is not due West to the inch. Due West precisely would put the body in Mitre Street so far from being to the inch you're about 60 feet out.

But you do raise a good point about alignments. For all intents and purposes let us say it was the killers intention to leave the Eddowes body due West of Stride. Here is the problem. It is practically impossible to do this.

What's happening is that confusion is arising over 'bearing' and 'location'.

A bearing is a direction from a certain point. It is not a defined location. So if you stand in the street and take a bearing of due North and follow that direction you will follow it until you reach the top of the world when your bearing now becomes South.

A location is a defined point on the earths surface. It is defined by giving two points of reference longitude and latitude. Each location is unique there is only one of each on earth. So if you plot 30 deg long and 30 deg lat that position is unique - its in one place and one place only.

So let us take our Eddowes Stride body dumping problem.

I wish to dump Stride in Berner Street and Eddowes due West. To do this I have to plot the location of Stride in Berner St and then draw a line due West to a suitable point and then note that location on a map

I then go out and dump the bodies on the spots I have already plotted. This is assuming of course I can get the assistance of my victims in placing themselves in the exact locations when I kill them!!

That is the only way to do it - I cannot do it by bearing. Here's why. I kill Stride and then take a compass from my pocket to find due West. Noting the direction I then set off to kill Eddowes. But because I cannot walk through buildings etc I have to walk along the streets. I walk up Berner Street until I meet Commercial Road but which way do I go then? I can take the compass out and find due West but that is from my present location - not from Strides body and so it goes on.

Whenever I stop to take a bearing I can only take it from my present location not from the original location.

This is a common myth in using a compass. People say I won't get lost I have a compass - but that is completely useless if you don't know where you are when taking the bearing - that's why you need a map!

Try it for yourself. Get yourself two points in your home town roughly a mile apart and due at cardinal points on the compass, say East West or North South. Stand on point A and take a bearing to the second point. Now try and get there by using bearings only - you won't do it.

Bob}}
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott

Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 8:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Bob,

Firstly let me correct an error in my post ... magnetic north was 18 degrees to the west of true north in 1888, not to the east!

I agree with you completely that the murder sites (if the killer was aiming for some kind of alignment) would have to be planned on a map, and not using a compass.

My point is that there is a difference between magnetic north and true north (by 18 degrees at the time) and that an occult plan would use true north and not magnetic north.

In this respect, all we have to do is look at a map to see if there is a pattern, as maps are already aligned with true north. Strictly, as the earth is curved and a map is flat, only the centre of the map lines up properly, but on an area as small as Whitechapel/Spitalfileds, this makes little difference.

When I look at my maps, I find the double event murder sites to be on exactly the same latitude - at least I think I do - I'm no cartographer and stand to be corrected!

David
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Jeff Flowers
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 9:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made the same assertion in my own thread, but was dismissed with the notion that Stride was not a Ripper victim. However, I'm not convinced. Two men instead of one makes pretty good sense- one as a lookout, the other as the more vicious and violent. Perhaps, like the Manson family, involved on some level in the occult. In serial killer terms, these killings were a bit unique- five victims within such close proximity, horrific mutilations, and an abrupt ending without explanation. In my opinion, they require a broader frame of reference when being examined
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2064
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right
As to a compass!!!.........As Bob rightly said ..'The compass is the best way to get lost' If you dont use it correctly!..This is soo true as anyone who's actually tried to use one for that purpose will ascertain!
Having spent way too long in the GG's as a child I knew and learnt these things getting lost in many woods etc and by working it out that it din't work if you happened to be facing the wrong way!..Still a Queens Guide though! Whoooo hooooo what help would that be though|??

Now as to the body placing.
Surely! in some form of sanity there can be nothing here,if a man of whatever sort ...some we know about and some are the 'rippers' of this world..go out to kill.......who knows where....(except the killer maybe!)they dont do the compass thing!!!!! Think about it in practicalities................a little to the left here dear,.......oooops no have to drag her a street or two away ...Come on I agree here this is way too cumbersome! and NOT I feel in the mind of the killer....

Just musings as ever her but feel theres a lot to be said here!


Suzi


Jeff

I cannot go with Stride because IF I believed her to be a victim it would mess up my non compass theory a treat!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Suzi
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 425
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 7:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This thread convinces me that you're all "non compass mentis." Okay, I'll leave quietly.

Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 307
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 7:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, Donald!!

I take it you're all dug out from the big storm.

Maybe you should go chop some wood!!!!
Mags
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott

Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have been playing around on magic.gov.uk to see if I can get precise grid references for the murder sites. Re the double event, I reckon Stride is 534324,181199 and Eddowes is 533466,181175, so Bob H is spot on when he says they don't line up properly. If I'm looking at it right, then Eddowes would have had to be killed in the opposite corner of Mitre Square for them to line up perfectly.
Still, using a map, the error is virtually unnoticeable, so can't completely dismiss the idea that it might have been deliberate.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2075
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

EXCELLENT!!! Well done David!!!!!!
Ok on a map it may be unnoticable but within that there lies the difference so they say...or something like that!

Well done!!

Suzi

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