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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3075
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 8:17 pm: | 
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Simon,
"but we don't obsess over them in the way we do the Ripper case : there is something uniquely fascinating and horrible about the Whitechapel murders I believe."
Yes, there is, but it has hardly anything to do with the nature of the crimes as such. As I said, far worse mutilation serial murders have been performed than the Ripper's and we are not equally obsessed with those either. The Ripper murders were covered in mythology already when they occurred, thanks to the tabloid press -- which never happened in the Ratcliffe Highway Murders.
"Surely its a reasonable speculation that the Ripper set out to shock the Victorian public with his crimes ?"
It's reasonable, but it shouldn't be taken for granted, Simon. I don't see any real evidence for that this was the real reason for the murders. These kind of murders are usually deriving from a compulsive state on the perpetrator's part and for personal sexual gratification. They can still display the bodies in a certain way for shock value, but that doesen't mean that was the aim with the murders to begin this -- just an additional twist.
"As for communications , the Ripper may or may not have used the press to communicate with the police , but he did leave us the Goulston St grafitti to ponder over- and he left a piece of apron behind to prove he had written it."
And where is the proof saying that the Ripper actually wrote that message? Because I certainly don't think he did -- in my opinion.
To take a very uncertain, disputed element in the context of the murders for granted, is a dangerous thing. If you have evidence that really proves the Ripper wrote that scribbling on the wall, please provide it.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 481
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
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Hi Simon,
Another thing that made the Ripper murders so uniquely fascinating and horrible is that Jack seems to have appeared out of nowhere and to have gone up in smoke again after each and every deed. Although it was a very densely populated district, the Ripper was still able to murder those poor women right under the very noses of all of those living or working there, including the police constables.
"They can still display the bodies in a certain way for shock value, but that doesen't mean that was the aim with the murders to begin this -- just an additional twist."
I completely agree with you there, Glenn. The shock value may have been sort of a bonus, if you will.
All the best,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Nadine
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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HI TO MARIA,HOWARD,GLEN
I hope you havn't taken anything I have written too literally. I am just a tourist, not a detective, with a background in psychology.I dont know much really about solving murder mysteries.I guess the input I was trying to add to this debate was that he was not necessarily a mad psychopath.This is subliminally entrenched in us by his stereotyped image, from an early age.The dark coat , pulled down hat, foggy streets with lamp posts, evil look on his face ect.One thing really surprises me: his name comes from the ' Dear Boss' letter , which most think was written by the News Agency to sell newspapers. The name 'Jack the Ripper' is thus totally irrelevant.
The mad psycho is sold to us ad nauseam.YES, it could have been.The point I was making is that it is more common today and would not raise much of an eyebrow from the general public.It wasnt a common thing in 1888, so I, and Sulley I think, was just suggesting to look at other options.I personally dont think he/they were like almost any other serial killer- most of which appear to be copycats anyway.The reason this topic is so popular are the 70 plus suspects and the inumerable possibilities.
Anyway, from a psychological viewpiont, I believe our person/s, given the period,had an axe to grind.Just who, I dont know? MARIA - if you would like me to hazzard a guess, I see one of the suspects was intimately involved with a victim and had a bit of an axe to grind with her right before her death.This Joseph might have to be looked at more closely.It could have been others though.
Happy New Year, Nadine |
Kyle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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HI GLEN
I would like to clarify the Graffitti with you.I see you take a special interest in it as your sign off line would indicate " The Swedes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing".I would say, as do most of us, he has deliberately put the piece of Eddow's apron in front of it beyond any doubt. The doubt that exists sir, is whether or not he wrote it?This we dont know.
The most likely , if you play the odds, and are astute with fine detail, is that he has written it.Being a Jewish complex, the message could only have been put there that night, some say a few hours only.Otherwise the first jew who saw it would have erased it.If he didnt do it , it only means exactly this: A roving antisemetic street grafitti punk wrote it around midnight.Even though at the time the police were out in force looking for any suspicious characters or 'punks'.Secondly , I have read on this website and elsewhere, there was no other grafitti ANYWHERE AROUND THIS MESSAGE!He has placed the piece of apron right in front of the message,and being no other grafitti around,he obviously has not done it inadvertantly.
This leaves us with 2 scenarios:
1. He wrote it and placed the apron as a subbtle clue.
2. A street punk wrote it a few hours earlier - the Ripper saw it as an opportunistic place to put the apron to add to the crucible of mayham he has already caused that night.
GLEN - you have chosen the literally MOST UNLIKELY SCENARIO ( I dont wish to come accross as rude) . :
3. A street punk wrote it a few hours earlier - The Ripper blindly dropped the apron in front of the message making his way home.Even though there was no other grafitti around it fell in front of this message.
Can you tell me why you choose the most conservative scenario? |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 198
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 11:19 am: |
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Glenn , I'm sorry but I sometimes feel it is totally pointless trying to argue or prove any point with you , as you seem to feel it ' cannot be proved ' in nearly every situation ! Re - the Graffiti , you say :
" And where is the proof saying that the Ripper actually wrote that message? Because I certainly don't think he did -- in my opinion.
To take a very uncertain, disputed element in the context of the murders for granted, is a dangerous thing. If you have evidence that really proves the Ripper wrote that scribbling on the wall, please provide it. "
Similarly , you could say ' I don't believe the Ripper was one killer , but 5 seperate serial killers operating at the same time. If you have evidence that only one man committed the murders then please provide it '. Because you seem to be choosing the least likely theory here in relation to the Graffiti.
As Kyle says above , the most likely scenario is that the Ripper wrote the message. Think about Sir Charles Warren , he wanted the message erased to prevent any anti-semitic tensions should it be seen. Now , if the message had been seen then already then maybe there would have been some trouble already , or someone would have tried to erase it already - which suggests the Graffiti was fresh.
Indeed both PC Halse and PC Long had both passed the Goulston St doorway before 2.55am and had seen neither the graffiti or the apron , so the apron seems to have been deposited there between 2.20 and 2.55.
It had to be the Ripper who left the apron there , as who else would know its provenance ?
Any other theory depends on chance : chance that the Ripper discarded the apron next to a piece of cryptic grafitti & chance that both Halse and Long overlooked both the message and the apron. People like Martin Fido tend to favour this idea of chance , as it fits in with their preconception of the Ripper being a lunatic without an agenda , a madman. Is that your theory too Glen ?
My current speculation is that the Ripper had deposited the organ somewhere and then tried to return to the crime scene or the area for some reason , maybe to see what was going on. The police presence was too great and he was forced to flee , hiding in the darkness of the Goulston doorway for cover , where he realised he still had a piece of apron he had used to wrap Eddowes's kidney. He wrote the message to taunt the police and dropped the apron rag to prove it was he , the Ripper , who had written the message.
Whether the Grafitti was simply crude anti-semitism , whether it refers to a Jewish conspiracy a la the Protocols of Sion , or whether it was a Masonic message revealing the Ripper as a Freemason ( only a fellow Mason would know that the Juwes killed Hiram Abif the architect of Solomon's temple , and the message may have been a taunt to Warren saying he couldn't prosecute a fellow Brother ) , I still believe it was penned by Jack. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:38 pm: |
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Simon,
No, but the difference between you and me is that you work from something you seem convinced of is the truth, and then let it rule all your other analyses in this context.
If you are bomb sure of that the message was penned by Jack -- which quite a small number of people are nowadays anyway -- then it also affects your other interpretations. That leaves you with very little open mind.
But no, I DON'T agree on that the message may have been written by someone else, is the LEAST possible option. On the contrary.
After the Eddowes murder, there were two police forces out running -- one in Whitechapel and one in the City of London. He practically had the police on his tail when he escaped from the murder in Mitre Square. Can you really see him stopping in the doorway, picking up a chalk out of his pocket and writing: "The Jewes are Not..."? I certainly can't.
If one is obsessed with the idea that the Ripper tired to convey a message with his murders, I can understand why one wants to see this.
But frankly, the Goulston Street message was written with a very small writing, in the dark part inside the doorway. The reason for why it was discovered in the first place that night was because of the apron and the fact that the PC lit the place up with his bull's eye lantern. That is why I think it was there already, although he didn't see it until he spotted the apron.
If the Ripper wanted to leave some sort of message... why not make it in a much larger and more easily spotted writing (to create a shock effect), and with a less cryptic on content? And why not in connection with the body instead? It is not like he could be certain of that the message really would be connected with the apron, and if not then the whole purpose of it would be lost.
My opinion is, that it was written earlier in the evening (when it had become dark), and written for some anti-semitic purpose -- maybe by someone who had been ripped off by a Jewish trader or sales-man. Goulston Street was very much a lively, crowded and active market place at daytime.
And that no one noticed it in the dark until the PC spotted the apron and lit up the doorway with his lantern. It is a logical deduction and can't be ruled out.
There were probably a lot of scribblings on the walls anyway.
When I say that the writing's connection between apron is not proven is that it has to be before one -- like yourself -- is TAKING IT FOR GRANTED! You are not even assuming it may have been -- you are CONVINCED.
And from that -- and also by accepting the now nearly disproven fact about the Ripper also writing some of the letters to the papers and press -- you then deduce that the Ripper MUST have had a message to deliver to the public.
It is quite possible that some of the letters actually were posted by the Ripper, but we can't know that or take it for granted. And from what we know so far, there is really nothing to suggest that they contain any information that couldn't already be picked up from the papers.
I am sorry to disappoint you, but there are no signs whatsoever that indicates that the Ripper actually did or intended to convey a message to the general public (besides his display of the bodies in full view), unless you want to read things into it that aren't there, just because it suits your perception of the Ripper. And hardly all serial killers display the urge to do that anyway -- most of them actually kill because they have to, for their own gratifications and needs. Not all killers are like the Zodiac.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 434
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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Simon,
You might want to check the "General Discussion> Anti-semitism" thread where there is also a current graffito discussion.
If you do, I think you will see that there are real questions about how assiduously Long and Halse had searched prior to 2:55 a.m. Long's testimony in particular is vague and self-contradictory. There is also contradictory evidence as to the amount of litter and graffiti to be found in the area; were there a lot of graffiti that would obviously make it less important that the apron part was found with one particular graffito -- and all the more when you consider the message itself is not directly linked to the apron or JtR.
Moreover, there is the whole matter of the provenance of the apron part from Mitre Square to Goulston Street. You can surmise it was carried, with any number of side-trips, from one location to another, by JtR but there is no way of knowing if that is true or if part of the journey was thanks to other human (or animal) agents.
Also, this apron part was likely a couple of feet square, so that JtR suddenly realized he was still carrying it seems far-fetched.
Finally, the "Juwes" relationship to Freemasonry is pretty much discredited these days.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3094
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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Oh, and... sorry, I forgot...
"People like Martin Fido tend to favour this idea of chance , as it fits in with their preconception of the Ripper being a lunatic without an agenda , a madman. Is that your theory too Glen ?"
Well, theory and theory... I can't say I really have any suspect theories... but yes, I do believe that the Ripper was a disorganized mentally disturbed individual without an agenda (note that that is NOT the same as a complete raving lunatic; personally I think David Cohen was TOO much of a lunatic in order to pull of the murders). But a lot of paranoid schizofrenics have proved to be rather cunning serial killers and quite hard to catch, in spite of their disorganized traits and irrational personality.
I don't think the Ripper was a clever, psychopathic and riddling genius, but then I don't necessarily believe he was a raving lunatic with foam coming out of his mouth either.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Kyle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Glen,Simon
I can see now that the crux of this argument, the deciding element, is the position of the other graffiti in relation to it.As I am a visitor, and dont know all the fine details of this case , is there any definate report on it? I think Donald touched on this.In 2005 as in 1888, if any policeman came across graffiti near some evidence, and saw graffiti everywhere, he would not think twice about it.It's a bit of a catch22.The officers made something of this message as it was OUTSTANDING in relation to the apron.If it wasn't OUTSTANDING, in relation to the apron, they would not have bothered with it.
Glen, by stating that the writing was small, you have strengthened the argument for him intentionally placing it there. THINK ONLY NOW OF THE MATHEMATICS AND PHYSICS BEHIND IT.If the writing was small, and there was no other graffiti in the immediate area, the odds of him blindly dropping it right in front of the " small writing" are very slim.
Strange this message is now a topic on this thread as it is the most pertinent to the whole argument - did he have an agenda, as this is the only real clue he/they left.The magical KEY to this clue has been missed by all - so I will end it.It's not the writing on the wall , but the cutting of the apron.If he did not intend to cut the symetrical piece of Eddow's apron to leave his clue, what other possible reason is there?There is only one - to wipe his hands of blood. THIS IS THE KEY. If he did need to wipe his hands, he then has made a consious decision right at Eddow's corpse to do so.I HAVE TESTED THIS WITH A STOP WATCH.It takes at least 5!!! times longer to do it the way he did it than simply wiping his hands on her apron as she lay there.If this doesnt ring alarm bells than I am wasting my time.If anyone says he is just stupid - then this man needs help doing his shoelaces up.HE HAS PLAINLY CUT THE APRON TO LEAVE AS A MARKER.The only other option is negated.BINGO- breakthrough. |
The Artful Dodger
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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I would like to take this opportunity on this poignant matter to once and forever expose Police Chief Warrens folley or deliberate interference.I once asked a detective friend why they put that tape up around crime scenes? I was told it indicates the area is restricted to certian people and now under the control of law enforcement.They are taking control of the area to investigate.Its a lockout for all else.For some reason this made me think of Chief Warren's puzzling decsion in 1888.Did he not think he had the control of his crimescene - if so he was not a very strong leader of men.If put in proper context it alarming!
THIS IS THE FIRST AND ONLY IMPORTANT CLUE LEFT BY THE BIGGEST MURDERER/FIEND LONDON HAS EVER SEEN IN IT'S HISTORY.The writng MUST be matched with with other documents to track him.If he wanted specialists to analyse or photograph the writing , without public interference, he could have , it's as simple as that.At this time he has been given reinforcements to help him catch the ripper and has hundreds of men at his disposal.I dont know if they had that crimescene tape back then, but of this I do know.Given the context ( which I spelt in capital letters) he could have controlled and cordened off the area for the short amount of time needed for the specialists to do their work.Had he had the desire to do this, NOTHING COULD HAVE STOPPED HIM.A strong character would have plainly controlled the area for the brief period needed - this was too big a fish to let slip! The question is why did he not have the desire?
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 490
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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Hi Kyle,
A very plausible possibility for cutting off the piece of apron would be to transport the organs he took from Eddowes' body. This possibility has been suggested more than once. Maybe the Ripper found out through Chapman's case that transporting organs in one's pockets can be a messy business and wanted simply to prevent this in Eddowes' case.
Furthermore, the graffito's letters were supposedly quite small, only about 1 inch high if I remember correctly, and according to a report by Superintendent Thomas Arnold they were written at shoulder height, so maybe between 3 and 4 feet from the ground. PC Long didn't discover the apron and the message in one go, so to speak. He saw the apron first and only when he had started looking for blood elsewhere in the entrance he saw the message. The entrance was rather dark.
Cheers,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has its advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3104
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 7:50 pm: |
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Hi Kyle,
"The officers made something of this message as it was OUTSTANDING in relation to the apron.If it wasn't OUTSTANDING, in relation to the apron, they would not have bothered with it."
I think they reacted to the message simply because it was found in the vicinity of the apron. I hardly think they would have placed much importance on it otherwise. It was the combination of the two items that probably made it important.
"Glen, by stating that the writing was small, you have strengthened the argument for him intentionally placing it there. THINK ONLY NOW OF THE MATHEMATICS AND PHYSICS BEHIND IT."
I absolutely disagree bigtime! If he wanted to leave a message to create a shock effect, and would be sure of it being spotted, he would have done it in bigger writing and in a more remarkable fashion.
(It's Glenn with two n's -- "Glen" is an americanism and an anglosaxan version)
"If he did not intend to cut the symetrical piece of Eddow's apron to leave his clue, what other possible reason is there?There is only one - to wipe his hands of blood. THIS IS THE KEY. If he did need to wipe his hands, he then has made a consious decision right at Eddow's corpse to do so.I HAVE TESTED THIS WITH A STOP WATCH.It takes at least 5!!! times longer to do it the way he did it than simply wiping his hands on her apron as she lay there.If this doesnt ring alarm bells than I am wasting my time.If anyone says he is just stupid - then this man needs help doing his shoelaces up.HE HAS PLAINLY CUT THE APRON TO LEAVE AS A MARKER.The only other option is negated.BINGO- breakthrough."
I am glad you feel so sure of yourself, but I am more doubtful. It would probably be a good thing for him to leave the scene in Mitre Square as soon as possible, and not hang around. Therefore I believe he wiped his hands and the knife with it as he ran along. The fact that you clocked it to five minutes, makes little difference; we can't know what happened on the way. he probably ran as fast as he could and maybe only slowed down in Goulston Street to wipe it off, because he didn't feel safe enough to do that until then.
There could be a number of explanations.
All the best
G. Andersson
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3105
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
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Dodger,
"I once asked a detective friend why they put that tape up around crime scenes? I was told it indicates the area is restricted to certian people and now under the control of law enforcement.They are taking control of the area to investigate.Its a lockout for all else.For some reason this made me think of Chief Warren's puzzling decsion in 1888.Did he not think he had the control of his crimescene - if so he was not a very strong leader of men.If put in proper context it alarming!"
Yes, they do put that tape up in order to seal off the crime scene. But sealing off crime scenes was NOT, like any other modern crime scene investigation method, yet in practice in 1888! The only thing they did at the time was the use constables in order to hold people and curiousity-seekers back.
Warren washed off the message, because he feared anti-semitic riots, since Goulston Street would be filled with people and salesmen the following morning. Seen in retrospect, his decision is understandable.
The reason for him not waiting for the photographer to do his job, was probably to avoid that the knowledge of the message -- or the photos themselves -- to leak to the press and the general public.
Warren had on previous occasion been under large pressure because of anti-semitic riots and he also knew how easy information from the police could leak to the press. And if it did, it could be a disaster. He probably felt he couldn't take the risk of having it photographed, and like several others, he probably doubted that it was an important clue connected with the case -- and it probably wasn't. That can of course be a matter of discussion, but I can see his situation -- or at least his reasons.
All the best
G. Andersson
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 246
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 8:35 pm: |
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Kyle:
Good thinking there my friend ! Thats an aspect of the possible connection of the apron to the GSG not much discussed. To remove the apron piece and not take the apron to wipe off the blood and fecal matter is something I wished I added to a story I wrote. No matter....You mentioned it and a hearty handshake to you for doing so. Salut !
This removal of a piece of a victims' clothing has a modern day crime to compare it with...that being the removal of a piece of cabdriver Paul Stein's shirt by the Zodiac Killer...it was used in what I believe to be a similar fashion to what the Ripper did at the Wentworth Building...that being a message.
Glenn....Out of curiosity,what manner of "message",could the Ripper have left that would have more shock value considering the tools that the average person had at their disposal,including murderers,for placating messages?
Chalk...and ?
We shouldn't assume that the Ripper,if he was the wallwriter, should have made a blatant message in the first place. Perhaps it was not in his nature to do so. The fact that it was small,as Kyle states,and directly over the apron piece was possibly good enough for him. Thats all we can determine from the evidence...
"But frankly, the Goulston Street message was written with a very small writing, in the dark part inside the doorway."--my drinking buddy Glenn
What would someone write that there for...shock value? If you don't like "them Yids"...let 'em know ! Use big lettering !!!
Chalk isn't easy to utilize over bricks. Believe me. You would have to spend too much time to avoid breaking the cylindrical type and the tailoring chalk would tend to take even longer.
How
(Message edited by howard on February 13, 2005) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3106
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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"Glenn....Out of curiosity,what manner of "message",could the Ripper have left that would have more shock value considering the tools that the average person had at their disposal,including murderers,for placating messages?
Chalk...and ? "
Howard, buddy, you have to rephrase that. I haven't got a clue of what you're saying here.I've been reading it over and over and I can't get it together.
"We shouldn't assume that the Ripper,if he was the wallwriter, should have made a blatant message in the first place. Perhaps it was not in his nature to do so."
If so, then what would be the point of such an exercise in the first place?
"The fact that it was small,as Kyle states,and directly over the apron piece was possibly good enough for him. Thats all we can determine from the evidence... "
I dont think so.
A killer who leaves a message, wants to make certain of that it'll be seen and spotted easily. That, I think, would be fair to assume if he was of such exhibitionistic disposition that ne needed to make statement. The message could just as easily have been missed if the police hadn't lit that part of the wall with his bull's eye lantern. And then the whole point would be lost.
Your reasoning doesen't add up.
"What would someone write that there for...shock value? If you don't like "them Yids"...let 'em know ! Use big lettering !!! "
Once again, I have no idea what you mean. Use English, for God's sake. Your point is impossible to grasp.
"Chalk isn't easy to utilize over bricks. Believe me. You would have to spend too much time to avoid breaking the cylindrical type and the tailoring chalk would tend to take even longer."
I'd say chalk is difficult on bricks regardless of how it's done. This just even further illustrates the unthinkable nature of the whole concept. You may picture yourself the Ripper stopping in the doorway, throwing the piece of apron and then trying to write an awkward message on a difficult surface, while the police is on his tail. I don't give it any credence whatsoever.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 247
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
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Sorry Glenn !! Sometimes it can appear that English is my second language. I apologize for the syntax...
Okay dude...
1. What sort of message,other than a chalk message,could the Ripper,assuming here that he did,leave? A chalked message is it,other than a can of paint and a horsehair brush.
2. Who says that the Ripper has to or had to be an exhibitionist with this message? The size of his message depended on his desires,not our perception of what it should have been according to what we think it should have been.
3. The Ripper,assuming again that he wrote the message,may very well have known the beat times of the cops [ which admittedly would be risky for him to assume to be always on time ] and likewise knew that the Wentworth,along with that area on and along Goulston Street would be scoured by the cops...as it was. This is possibly why he took the piece of apron with him in the first place for the inevitable connection to the message.
4. If,as many believe,that this message was just a random anti-Semitic scrawl,it has to be the lamest and goofiest anti-Semitic graffiti in history. I can see someone stating, "Jews Go Home" or "Down with the Yids". What sort of person writes a goofy convoluted message so far down on a wall with a piece of chalk like that? Where's the anger in this message? Where's the animosity ?
5. The Ripper wasn't being hunted immediately after Eddowes' body was discovered,with the cops chasing him down the street. He was long gone. In the 65 minutes between Eddowes' body being discovered and the graffiti being found, the Ripper could easily have placed that message there. It would have only taken one minute at most to do so.
Again,I am sorry for the problem with the first part of my other post.
Skoal...
How |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3108
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 7:06 pm: |
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Skoal, Howie -- dude. 
No problem; I just hate answering questions I am not sure I understand. I therefore prefer to let the writer rephrase it in order to avoid misunderstandings.
1. Beats me, Howard, but I just don't think a tiny chalk message in a dark doorway really cuts it. As I said, it just further illustrates the point of it not being made by the Ripper.
If we wanted to leave a message he could have brought with him a piece of paper and a pen and attached it to the victim's body (he could even have written it beforehand, in order not to get caught in the act by remaining there too long).
All in all, I think most circumstances points at him not being the kind of individual that wanted to communicate at all.
2. A criminal who leaves messages to the press or the police wants to get attention and recognition for his crimes. In this lie some sort of exhibitionism. The Ripper don't strike me as this kind of person, and some of his kind have proven not to be.
3. No, Howard, we know that he used the piece of the apron in order to wipe of his hands and his knife, since it contained blood and some gory stuff from inside Eddowes' body. So this purpose can at least be verified by evidence. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports the thought that he took the piece in order to leave some sort of communication.
4. You can't base your interpretation of wall scribbling by comparing them to modern ones. It is not like you would have found "Kilroy was here" on the walls of East End...
I am not so sure of that the message was so lame for the 19th century Whitechapel population.
I believe everyone in the area would have known what it meant, and Warren's reaction also implies this.
And why would a murderer -- making afforts in writing a communication and risking his butt by doing so -- leave a vague and goofy message? what would be the point in that?
5. I disagree; there are clear indications on that the police was on his tail. Besides: You're forgetting the coppers and the crowds as a result of the Stride incident (that occurred 45 minutes prior to the murder of Eddowes).
Sorry, Howard, but if the Ripper really was a person who liked to communicate and leave messages for the police, then we would have seen more genuine letters written by him, containing information that could not be picked up from the papers. We have no indication of that.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 741
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 7:27 pm: |
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Hi Howard and Glenn
Glenn, if you haven't seen it yet, Howard's got an article in the new Rip. I just received mine and see that Howard's done a graffiti experiment. I'm looking forward to reading it (hopefully tonight). Congratulations, Howard!
Howard, chum, looking at the title and your illustrations, I think you missed a killer opportunity to recreate the cover for Michael Jackson's Off the Wall album.
Cheers,
Dave |
unknow
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:28 am: |
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in my opinion i don't belive that the ripper set out with an intention to shock the victorian public.
i belive that this was a deep psychological isues which could stem back to his mother or sister's may have been whores. this may off caz a feeling humiliation causing this back lash as an adult. he may not have always been aware off this inner hatred. under those sercumstance i would then be led to presume that there was a trigger incident that caz this violence. this trigger incident could be anything even something like seeing a whore take a client might of sparked that infuriating fire inside the ripper causing him to start these horrible murders. i dont belive that the murders are planed i belive that each victim was chosen for a reason some how relating to childhood. these triggers can be a girl that reminds him off them(possibly mother or sisters)it could be their figure their hair a scent a noise a phrase the trigger could be a flash where his blood just boils. but it still remains clear that the ripper enjoyed every killing.}} |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 250
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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Dear Davey O...
Credit for that hip-hop looking wall goes to that British rapper-author,JustDFaxMCCoolPapaBegg...it took him 7 hours to get all that stuff up there from what he told me....word!. As to that freak Jackson...I hope he's prepared for the nosejob that awaits him as he tries to moonwalk his way out of that inevitable conjugal with Double Muslim IvorTripleX...Ouches are in order,sir !
Glenn...thanks for these replies.
Point 1....Yessir. Neither of us or anyone else can really explain why JTR left a message there. Fair enough. If he was going to,it would make sense to write one on paper in advance and leave it at the scene..Hard to argue that line of logic.
Point 2...Another circular argument where neither of us can be certain. There is,however,the unusual article by RDS that explains the possible misinterpretation of the 2nd word of the GSG. Could this be a clarification by the author,again touching on your theory of exhibitionism ?
Point 3....On another thread,dealing with D'onston, I added, rightly or wrongly, that this murder was as equally vicious and messy as the Nichols and Chapman murder,and both of these murders saw no removal of any article of clothing from the victims. Oversight? Extra messy? Used in a new and specific way?
Point 4..." 4. You can't base your interpretation of wall scribbling by comparing them to modern ones.---Amen,Glenn...we can't. It is not like you would have found "Kilroy was here" on the walls of East End...
I am not so sure of that the message was so lame for the 19th century Whitechapel population.---not only is it lame..its convoluted. Graffiti isn't written for intellectual debate or pondering over a glass of wine. Its to the point..like "Frank is an arse" or "For a good time call Monty at.."
I believe everyone in the area would have known what it meant, and Warren's reaction also implies this. ---Thats why I think it was linked,Glenn ! This extraordinary effort by the cops in the first place. Caz said it best..just take the apron and leave..
And why would a murderer -- making afforts in writing a communication and risking his butt by doing so -- leave a vague and goofy message? what would be the point in that? --we don't think like these people. Thats our dilemma,buddy.
Going to go get some more beer for the discussion..
Later and glasses up !
How |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 7:46 am: |
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How,
"For a good time call Monty at.."
You can bet your sweet spanky on that !
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Kyle Warren
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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Hi Glen,
There is something I need to clear up about this apron piece that wont go away.I will try to spell it out as exactly as I can so you can give me a scientific response that I understand.I need you to focus on a decisive split second in his actions on that night.This point is not ambiguous, it is one or the other.
You say in 'point 3'of your post, in response to Howard and I,he used the piece of apron to wipe the knife and hands of blood and gunk, this is verifiable.I know that is verifiable, but I need to focus on a decisive moment in this action, and thus the case.I think you may have missed what I was getting at.
* If you say he has cut the apron SOLEY for the purpose of wiping up, then he has decided at a single point when finishing his work on Eddow's.Glen, imagine you are the ripper at this point,the crucial second, you say " Jesus, I have blood and crud on my hands and knife, I must wipe them".At this DECISIVE second when he has decided to wipe, then we have 2 options:
1. The most logical- he wipes them straight away on her apron as anyone instinctively would.(I time this action at approx 4 seconds)
2. The most illogical and pointless option - he cut the square foot piece of apron with his knife, stood up, and commenced to wipe as he leaves the crimescene.(I time this action at approx 20 seconds), possibly more.
This decision he has made is not a small , trivial point that will fade away , but is unavoidable and cant be shrugged off.There is no point to him cutting the apron and taking it with him soley to wipe.Even though my time trials indicate this, anyone would know this without thinking about it.It is POINTLESS, when all he must do is wipe them straight on her apron as she lay there, at the split second his mind decided to wipe.
Glen, if you agree with the science that he has cut it for another reason, than the explination is plausible.In cutting it , and wiping the blood and guts over it, he leaves no doubt to anyone , the police, where it is from.As a bonus he gets his hands cleaned aswell which he may or may not have wanted to do, we dont know.
Another point in winning me over is the night he chose to drop his subbtle hint.He wrote in his postcard " double event this time, I shall clip the ladies ears off just for jolley". He coined the term 'DOUBLE EVENT ' like Don King promotes a fight.He tried to cut through Eddow's ear aswell. He was no dreg, our man, he understood the media and how to use it.It is too massive of a coincedence for me to overlook - HE HAS ADVERTISED HIS BIG 'DOUBLE EVENT' AND USED IT TO INDEED DROP HIS SUBBTLE HINT. |
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