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Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 107
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:52 am: | 
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Scott,
You raise some valid points. Regarding the "evidence that Kosminski enacted a public display of masturbation" - I dont have any evidence. I have asked Scott Nelson the same question because it was one of his articles that I based this assumption on. I think the evidence may exist somewhere, and I think I may have read other sources that refer to this, but I can't recall where I read it. Does anyone else have info on this?
As far as Lawende goes. Yes I agree, it could have been a police officer who was the witness. But then we do not have any evidence that any police officer witnessed the suspect at Mitre Square. So it could be PC Smith...? I am wondering though, we have anderson say "when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him." And Swanson : "because the suspect was also a Jew and also because his evidence would convict the suspect and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged which he did not wish to be left on his mind". My question is this: how likely is it that there were very many Jews on the Police force in London at that time? I apologize if this question is naive or comes across badly... it is meant as a true question, and I do not know the answer to it.
Rob H |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 63
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 11:25 am: |
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Robert,
You're right of course the Jewish connection certainly adds a twist. It's a fair question you raise regarding Jewish policeman and I am not certain how we would answer it.
I have always liked the concept of Sergeant Stephen White's encounter with a man after one of the murder's. The account of course is riddled with innacuracies and was certainly embelished over time. I still believe though that hidden at the heart of it is a grain of truth. I think we can discount it as a historical document pertaining to the appearance (physical description) of JtR. If we however take at face value that Sergeant Stephen White came face to face with JtR on his way out of Mitre Square (for arguements sake) then surely we can believe that he could be the witness in question. This would be significant because as far as I can tell this is the only account of a witness seeing an alleged suspect leaving the site of a murder rather than prior to one. It would also be significant because the witness was a policemen, and a policeman who was specifically taking note of people coming and going in the area. If he had given a description as detailed as Hutchinson's we would not question it so much as he had every reason to notice such details.
I know, White does not strike me as a particularly Jewish name either but I'm just floating the idea that the witness might have been a Bobby.
Scotty.
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Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 336
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:02 pm: |
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Macnaghten's reference to Kosminski strongly resembling a man seen by "the City PC near Mitre Square" (omitted from the official version of his memoranda, but later echoed by the journalist G. R. Sims) tends to support the idea of a police witness - perhaps Smith, who saw a suspect that night, though not near Mitre Square.
But Swanson's account does seem to imply that the witness who made the identification at the Seaside Home was Jewish, and Anderson's and Swanson's claim that the witness recognised the suspect but refused to give evidence scarcely suggests he was a police officer.
Another suggestion that's been made in the past is that Swanson's "Seaside Home" may not have been the Police Convalescent Home at all, but perhaps one maintained by a Jewish benevolent organisation. This could certainly answer some of the puzzling questions.
Some more "Seaside Homes" associated with the police have recently been found in the Times. Maybe it would be worth widening the search.
Chris Phillips
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Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 108
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 2:22 pm: |
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Scott,
I don't recall ever reading anything about this Sergeant Stephen White... is there any info on him on the Casebook site?
Rob H |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 891
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 5:35 pm: |
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Just a couple of points:
I think The Colney Hatch records refer to Kosminski indulging in solitery vices which is generally considered to be a polite way of stating that he was unable to control himself over these urges and that this would imply that he did so in public/whenever the urge came on.
But then the Victorians seem to have been unhealthily obsessed by all this thinking it led to blindness and all sorts of evil outcomes-one just hopes they didnt really think he was JtR because he was apparently rather self indulgent in this respact!
Robert,there is a fairly long account of Sgt White"s sighting in Donald Rumbelows book.
Best Natalie |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:47 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
The text of his account and a message board discussion on it can be found on the casebook here: The Peoples Journal Article
Hope this helps. (Be warned, it's quite fanciful and factually incorrect)
Scotty.
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 905
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 3:12 am: |
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Hi,
My view is, that when Eddowes left the police station, she was followed by a plain clothes officer, for it stems belief that she would be allowed to venture out alone at 1am, in a vunerable state, it was policy to observe couples of disrepute, and i believe that this officer saw Eddowes and her accoster along route, and proceeded to follow them at a respectable distance, however he lost them as they stood in church pasage, and at once proceeded to a nightwatchman in orange place[ james Bleinkensop] asking 'Have you seen a man and woman pass this way?. to which No' was the reply.
We should remember that after the body of Eddowes was found, a wall of silence was erected concerning the press, and the police refused to be in any way cooperative.
Therefore I ask the question, 'Was this because one of their police officers lost his way following what the police believed would have been 'Jack' and his victim, and was this officer the person in the seaside home recovering from a breakdown, as he would have obviously blamed himself for his mistake, which resulted in murder.
Just a thought.
Regards Richard. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1195
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 4:13 am: |
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Guys,
Can I throw in a possibility ?
Has anyone thought that the City PC near Mitre Square could have been Halse ?
He stopped searched 2 men near Mitre Sq that night.
I must confess that Im not overly keen on this idea but Im just wondering if anyone else has the same thoughts.
Sorry not Kosminski...but as we were mentioning it !!
Monty
Face cream.....now thats just gayness in a jar...
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 896
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Very possible I would have thought Monty,now you point it out.
Natalie |
Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 1:40 pm: |
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David,
In the article I put forth some of my own ideas which I think support at least a somewhat substantial case for Aaron's being JTR. However, I also read other opinions on "The Kosminski Suspect", looked at the reasons why he was dismissed, and considered these reasons in the overall scheme of my argument. My point is, that I concluded, in many cases, that the arguments used to dismiss Aaron were often not that substantial, often based on conjecture or circumstantial fragments which could be interpreted in a variety of ways. That is why I called the article "Reconsidering Aaron Kosminski", because I wanted to present a different take on AK than that which seems to be most common... ie. that he is dismissed for any of a number of reasons: as being harmless, a mumbling imbecile, or that he is not the Kosminski suspect at all. The more I looked into it, a general picture emerged, where a lot of the fragments of information seemed to fit with Aaron's being JTR.
Rob H |
sara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 5:16 pm: |
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Apart from being delusional and only eating from the gutters, is there any record that good old Kosminsky/Cohen/Kaminsky, or whatever name you prefer, was even able to speak English? Firstly, being a Jewish refugee in a climate of anti-semitism might have hampered his opportunities to learn the new language. Secondly, I seem to recall reading about him not talking at all while incarcerated. Taken for granted the hysteria that would have ruled the Whitechapel area, a delusional man, practically unable to speak English, would hardly have seemed a "safe client" to the ordinary prostitute, no matter her desperate situation. Could someone please enlighten me regarding AK:s language skills, b/c this has been nagging me for quite some time.
All the best,
Sara |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 12:40 pm: |
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"...if the name Woolf Kosminski does appear on the record then this could be an easily made mistake. I assume a clerk of some sort would write the entries upon admission. Having already been introduced to a man named Woolf he may simply have asked what relation the patient was and upon being told brother rather than brother in law simply assumed that the man was therefore Woolf Kosminski."
>>Aren't you forgetting that Swanson says that after the identification the suspect was returned to his brother's house, and the fact that Aaron didn't have a brother? Thus we have a confirmatory opposition concerning someone in Aaron's family falsely portraying himself as Aaron's brother.
David
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Dan Norder
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 150
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 1:20 am: |
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David, Swanson also said Kosminski died shortly after. He was still alive at the time that was written. Swanson isn't exactly the most trustworthy of sources. If he says he was returned to his brother's house it could mean anything. You can't take that as proof that someone was deliberately lying about being his brother. It could be proof that whomever he was thinking of really did have a brother, that someone who told Swanson about it mistakenly thought the person was his brother, or that Swanson was just completely confused.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Hi Dan and David.
Then who is the suspect arrested in mid September 1888.
From the JTR Source Book page102 (paperback edition).
This report appeared in a local newspaper.
I don't want to have to type out the full report (typing is not one of my better skills), but it seems that a man of the Jewish persuasion (he was wearing a skull cap) was picked up and taken to Commercial Street Police Station sometime after the 15th of September.
The report says he was behaving in a suspicious manner,(exposing himself?) and was handed over to a policeman. The contents of his pockets are interesting, they included several pieces of a woman’s dress, this seems to point to the fact that he could have been involved in the tailoring trade, two women’s purses were also found on him. Several handkerchiefs were found on him, one that had a border of red spots (strangely the man seen by Lawende wore a handkerchief with red spots, although I think this is just coincidence). The last item found on him was a spring onion.
Now I’m not saying that this is Aaron Kosminski, but Kosminski was known to have refused food from anyone and to have picked up his food from the gutters, could the man arrested in September 1888, have picked up the spring onion from the gutters surrounding Spitalfields Market?
That the police considered the man as being of a rather strange character is beyond doubt.
Was this man Kosminski?
Regards Cludgy.
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Morticia Addams
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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I have to agree with Sara here. What are the chances a prostitute would have hooked up with a guy like Kosminski, at the height of the Ripper-scare, no matter how strapped for cash she might be?/M |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 9:45 am: |
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HaHa, but who is the man as reported in The Times, arrested sometime before 15 September 1888, begorra, and to be sure.
(see above for details)
Regards Cludgy.
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 1:32 pm: |
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I don't think we can just dismiss Donald Swanson as:
"...[not] exactly the most trustworthy of sources", or as... just completely confused".
The man was a retired senior police officer commenting in writing on the memoirs of a long-standing colleague, and presumably believing that he was expanding factually on the statements Anderson made. he was writing in reirement, privately and without seeking publication - there is no reason to believe he made things up either. Even if the latter point were possible to a former public servant like Swanson.
We surely have to make the assumption that, however it may appear today, Swanson was writing as accurately as possible and that his words made sense to him and reflected the situation as he recalled it.
NOW - whether we have identified the RIGHT Kosminski; the "Seaside Home" Swanson had in mind, or correctly understood what he had in mind is another matter altogether. we may be jumping to conclusions based on similarities rather than identities. It is our conclusions and presumptions that should be questioned. Swanson's words simply need to be analysed and studied ever more closely.
I agree with the thought above - did he have in mind the POLICE seaside home or another institution altogether? We may have jumped to an unwarranted conclusion here.
I agree also that Swanson's memory MAY have been faulty about the sequence of events, and it is possible he was misinformed about the death of Kosminski - taking something as factual without checking. But unless he can be PROVED to be wrong (he cannot YET in my view) we must take his words as true and question our own interpretation of them. He was there, we were not. He KNEW what he was talking about - we may not (in either sense of those words!)
Phil |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 386
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 8:48 am: |
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Phil,
I believe you misread my statements above.
I'm not just dismissing Swanson out of hand, I am simply pointing out that his words cannot be trusted completely as factual based upon their apparent assumed meaning. That's not to say that I claim at all that he was lying, or being purposefully deceitful in something he wrote privately, but I think some people want him to be right so much that they fail to appreciate that he most likely got facts wrong, may only have passing knowledge of the events referenced, and so forth.
You should also note that I was responding to a poster who claimed that the fact that Swanson referred to the person's brother meant that someone (an unidentified alleged scheming psychopath relative who framed Kosminski for the crimes theory) purposefully lied. I was pointing out that that was a completely ridiculous conclusion to make, as there were many more reasonable explanations than that someone purposefully lied for some unknown and illogical purpose.
Your statements above are all very important points and precisely as I believe the situation is, except for the idea that his words must be accepted as true and that he knew what he was talking about. If he seems to have facts wrong, the assumption should be that he may or may not be right, not that he was in fact nor that he was in fact wrong. He also may not have known much about what he was referencing, as he may have simply been confused about what Anderson wrote, contacted him, and then wrote down what Anderson said so he could reference it himself later.
Like a lot of instances in this case, I think we have to beware of assuming that certain people's opinions (witnesses, police, etc.) were 100% accurate and that we just need to accept them without further proof. People aren't perfect. They make mistakes and faulty conclusions. We can hunt for truth into the bits of statements we have from officials and witnesses and so forth, but we also have to acknowledge that there is likely to be errors not only in our interpretations but theirs as well.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:25 am: |
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Dan, when you write:
"...we also have to acknowledge that there is likely to be errors not only in our interpretations but theirs as well."
I could not agree more. But I would point out that they were also closer to events than we are, and much information available to them is lost to us. As is their (in some cases more precise) use of words and language.
Take the words "Seaside Home" for instance. Swanson must have known what he meant by that term, but has our research found the right place (ie the one he had in mind)?
If the evidence we have about the Police seaside home is confusing, it may be because we have the wrong place. In which case we cannot blame Swanson. Equally, the place we have might be the one he had in mind, but was used deliberately to obfuscate or confuse the trail. If so we should not be surprised if we are baffled - we were intended to be.
Thus I argue that to "blame" the contemporary and to seek comfort in the fact that he might be wrong, or confused should be the LAST port of call. there are many other explanations, some MUCH more likely, and they involve us and OUR thinking.
You also wrote:
"He also may not have known much about what he was referencing, as he may have simply been confused about what Anderson wrote, contacted him, and then wrote down what Anderson said so he could reference it himself later."
Frankly, I see no evidence for such a contention in the marginalia. The latter have all the hallmarks of having been drawn from a lively, convinced and reliable memory. I think, if what you suggest were true, that swanson would have written (something along the lines of) "Anderson confirmed to me that.....".
I don't think there is really much water between us though,
Phil
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 395
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
Well, I think we are basically in the same ballpark, other than disagreeing on whether human error in the source material should be considered only as a last possible resort or not. I'm obviously more cynical than you. Whether that's a good thing or not is for someone else to decide. 
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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jfripper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 7:48 pm: |
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For Cludgy,
In answer to your question about the suspect arrested in Mid September, is name was Edward McKenna.
He resided at 15 Brick Lane, Whitechapel. He was arrested for acting suspiciously, being handed over to a constable on duty in or near Flower And Dean Street. Upon his arrest, he was taken to Commercial Street P.S., where he was questioned and searched. His pockets were found to contain a heap of rags, two women's purses, two or three pocket handkerchiefs, two small tin boxes, a small cardboard box, a small leather strap and a SPRING ONION.
His description was given:-
Slight build, about five foot seven or eight, shabbily dressed and careworn. He had sandy hair and beard and wore a SKULL CAP.
In answer to answers he told the police he peddled laces and other small articles for a living and had 'been on tramp in Kent', only just having arrived back in London.
The police did not attach much importance to him, but detained him for enquiries, but within due course he was liberated when his alibi was checked out.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Michael |
Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 146
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 7:56 am: |
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Hello All,
I have just been re-reading this thread, and I started mulling over another possibility. On the one hand we have Macnaghten's reference to Kosminski strongly resembling a man seen by "the City PC near Mitre Square". In addition we have anderson say "when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him." And Swanson : "because the suspect was also a Jew and also because his evidence would convict the suspect and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged which he did not wish to be left on his mind".
What I am wondering: isn't it possible that these are in fact referring to two separate witnesses; that there were 2 identifications, possibly occuring at the same place and time? And that perhaps the Jewish witness's identification was more positive, and that the PC's identification was less sure, less positive. That he "resembled" a man seen by the City PC, but that he was not ultimately sure if it was the same man. In a case like this the Jewish witness's testimony would have been more important as it would have been more likely to lead to a conviction. Perhaps the police also felt that the City PC's identification was not strong enough. In any case, the entire Seaside Home episode was kept pretty hush hush. In my mind it is possible that Swanson, or whoever was in charge of coordinating the Seaside Home identification, said to bring Lawende (or whoever the suspect was) and also to have the City PC come along to see if he could ID the suspect. As the whole episode seemed somewhat secretive in nature, it seems plausible that they may have wanted to have more than one witness take a look at Kosminski... even if they had a witness who did not get a very good look at the suspect at/near the crime scene.
Just a thought.
Rob |
AIP
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 2:57 am: |
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It doesn't do to think too much about this case!
Two identifications are less likely than one in a situation where it has been kept secret.
It would be almost impossible to keep something like this secret, more so the more people involved. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1466
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 5:07 am: |
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Rob,
Some things never change do they ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4122913.stm
I know its a slightly different kettle o fish yet this incident just goes to show that there is insane and then there is insane !
Monty
Fear.
Fear attracts the fearful. The strong. The weak. The innocent. The corrupt.
Fear.
Fear is my ally.
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 2:17 am: |
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Macnaghten was clearly working from memory when writing his famous memorandum, and jumbled facts (barrister/doctor: 31/41 etc) - I don't think we can be certain whether the "City PC" or the Mitre Square references are accurate or another jumble. All I'd say is that (IMHO) MM was referring to something that did happen.
I don't think, particularly against that background, that we should conflate the City PC and the Jewish witness of Anderson and Swanson, in any way. Any conclusions based on such reasoning are built on a house of cards and have little foundation.
Phil |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 586
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 1:43 pm: |
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I hope to have an opportunity fairly soon to do a search for the death registration of [?]Colda Abrahams - Kosminski's putative mother.
I just thought I'd check here again whether anyone else had already made such a search, or was planning to - to be sure I avoid both duplication of effort and trespassing on anyone else's research plans.
Chris Phillips
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 159
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 8:12 am: |
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I havent done it Chris. Good luck.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3744
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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It looks as though furrier Martin Kosminski's daughter Jessie was quite talented, appearing on the London stage.
"TIMES" FEB 7th 1900
Robert |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 172
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
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Hi,
Someone might be able to help me with this question (I hope). According to the 1891 census, the Lubnowski family was then living at 63 New Street. Now I had always assumed this to be just a few streets east of their previous address (Greenfield St), because I was using the map below as a source (see below).
However, looking on a modern street map, I see that this street is called "Newark St." So I began to wonder if the "New St" was an abbreviation for "Newark Street", as this map abbreviates street names in other places. Also, I found a New Street in Spitalfields between Middlesex and Houndsditch. (see map below).
Does anyone know which of these locations was the April 1891 residence of the Lubnowskis?
Rob |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 608
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
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Robert
If it's any help, the street off New Road is shown as "New Street" on the 1873 Ordnance Survey map (and there would be ample space to spell out "Newark" if that had been its name then).
In Scott Nelson's dissertation on Kosminski's relatives, the address is given from an order for Aaron's transfer to Leavesden (quoting Sugden) as 63 New Street, New Road, Whitechapel. So I think it must be the one off New Road that's correct.
Chris Phillips
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 174
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
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Thanks Chris,
I think that clears it up. New Street must have neen renamed Newark Street.
Rob |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 613
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:46 am: |
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The death of a Golda Abrahams, aged 97, was registered at Wandsworth in the 3rd quarter of 1912. I presume this is the same woman described as the mother of Kosminski's sister in 1901, though her age at death seems to be exaggerated (and considering Kosminski's birth date, her age in 1901 may have been exaggerated too).
I have ordered a death certificate, and will post the details here in a few days.
Chris Phillips
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 614
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
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I see the "Jewish Records Indexing - Poland" project has now transcribed into its database births from Kalicz in the period covering Kosminski's birth:
http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/town/kalisz.htm
Kalicz was the place of origin of Martin and Samuel Kosminski, and Scott Nelson identified their likely birth records using this database.
I have just made a search, but can't see anything obviously relevant to Aaron or the other East End Kosminskis, apart from a couple of possible entries noted below. There are an awful lot of Kosminskis in the records, though. Maybe someone else can spot something.
(1) It's perhaps interesting that the birth of a Golda KOZMINSKA is listed at Kalicz in 1844 (of an age that could make her a daughter of the Golda Abrahams who died in 1912), but maybe this is nothing more than a coincidence.
(2) One potentially interesting Kosminski is Morris, who may have been living at 70 Berner Street at the time of the murders - Scott Nelson posted on him a few weeks ago. According to Paul Begg in 2001, he was "the son of Barnet and Rachel Kosminski and was born 19 September 1863 in Wattan, Kalisch, Poland" (apparently from a naturalisation application). I can't find "Wattan", but I wonder whether it could be Warta, a town about 20 miles east of Kalicz, of which more than half the population of 3,224 was Jewish in 1857:
http://www.zchor.org/warta/warta.htm
There are quite a lot of Kosminski entries from Warta in the database, though the crucial 1860s period hasn't yet been covered. It's interesting that a Matylda KOZMINSKA was born in in 1845 at Warta. This is 6 or 7 years earlier than the age of Kosminski's sister Matilda in 1901 would indicate. But on the other hand Matylda appears to be a very uncommon Jewish name (I had assumed it was an anglicised version of some other name).
Perhaps the unpublished records of Warta would be worth investigating further.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3857
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 1:16 pm: |
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Hi Chris
Do you remember Martin Fido saying that the Jews' Shelter records for the years we're interested in are stored in England (but not at the LMA)? I'm sure I remember his saying that they are in Yiddish, and that "some guile" would be necessary, as the custodians are very sensitive on the subject of JTR. Or am I imagining this?
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 615
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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Robert
No, you're not imagining it:
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4922&post=74346#POST74346
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3858
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
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Thanks Chris. I'm afraid that even if I had the guile, I haven't got the Yiddish!
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 617
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:17 am: |
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One more thought about Golda Abrahams.
If Kosminski's mother had remarried to a man named Abrahams, I had wondered previously whether Woolf Abrahams could actually have been Kosminski's step brother, as well as his brother-in-law.
Rereading Scott Nelson's dissertation on "Kosminski's Relatives", the final paragraph may be relevant:
Aaron's burial record was signed by a H.W. Abrahams, who lived at the "Dolphin" and whose relationship to the deceased was listed as "brothers". The Trades Directories indicate that the Dolphin, located at 97-99 Whitechapel Road, was a public house/restaurant run by Edward Cecil Moore and Mark Abrahams. H.W. Abrahams could have been Aaron's brother-in-law, Woolf, although the Electoral Roll only shows in addition to H.W. and Mark, an Isaac and Florence Abrahams living there at the time.
Certainly Woolf Abrahams and family were living in Manchester in 1901. I don't know whether it's known whether they stayed there, or whether their later history has been traced.
But if Golda had remarried to an Abrahams, that might also explain the relationship to H. W. Abrahams and the others at the Dolphin.
Chris Phillips
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 179
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 1:25 pm: |
|
Chris,
I have always been confused about this as well. It almost seems that either Golda a.) took the name of her daughter's family, b.) re-married someone who was also coincidentally named Abrahams, or c.) there was some pseudo-incestual stuff going on, where perhaps Golda re-married a relative of Woolf Abrahams, or something like that.
But I admit I am confused by this whole thing.
So do you know if there are likely to be any documents relating to either Golda or Aaron that exist in Poland or Russia somewhere? Like marriage records for example.
Also, I am extremely interested in finding out about Aaron's father... who he was, when he died, and if he left the family at some time. How can we find out these things?
Rob |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 620
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
|
Robert
Fortunately, Golda's death certificate, which I collected today, at least rules out possibility (a), as it names her late husband as Abraham Joseph Abrahams, a master tailor.
Here are the details in full:
REGISTRATION DISTRICT Wandsworth
1912 DEATH in the Sub-district of Streatham in the County of London
No.: 62
When and where died: Twenty first August 1912 Tooting Bec Asylum Tooting
Name and surname: Golda Abrahams
Sex: Female
Age: 97 years
Occupation: Formerly of 5 Ashcroft Road Mile End E Widow of Abraham Joseph Abrahams A Tailor (Master)
Cause of death: Senile decay Certified by E. H. Beresford M R C S Eng
Signature, description and residence of informant: E. H. Beresford Superintendent Tooting Bec Asylum Tooting
When registered: Thirtieth August 1912
Signature of registrar: Charles T. Smith Registrar
One or two comments to follow.
Chris Phillips
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 621
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
|
Obviously this is the same Golda Abrahams that appears in the 1901 census described as the "wife's mother" of Morris Lubnowski, as her former address, 5 Ashcroft Road, is the same that the Lubnowskis lived at, according to Scott Nelson's dissertation on "Kosminski's Relatives".
I don't know why she would have been sent to an asylum south of the river, though.
So taking the census entry at face value, the mother of Matilda Lubnowski (nee Kosminski) had remarried to a master tailor named Abraham Joseph Abrahams. The identity of occupations may lend some weight to the idea that Woolf Abrahams the tailor may have been Golda's son, and therefore a step brother, as well as a brother-in-law, of Aaron Kosminski.
It's not clear whether Abraham Joseph Abrahams ever lived in England. Today I checked the Trades sections of the Post Office Directories of London for the years 1883, 1887, 1891, 1895 and 1899 for tailors named Abraham Abrahams, but without success.
FreeBMD (though not complete) shows only an Abraham Joseph Abrahams whose death was registered at St Saviour in 1890, but at 42 he seems far too young to be the husband of Golda. The ancestry.co.uk index of the 1891 census doesn't seem to throw up any likely possibilities for Abraham or Golda Abrahams (I am using the free index; if anyone has a subscription, it may be worth searching in a bit more depth). The 1881 census index for London/Middlesex shows a number of Abraham Abrahams (including at least one tailor), but again none of an age with Golda.
So it may be that - as has been suggested previously - Golda came to England later than the rest of the family, perhaps in the early 1890s in her widowhood.
Chris Phillips
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 622
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
|
Going back to Mark Abrahams of "The Dolphin", Scott Nelson's dissertation refers to the directory of 1919 for this pub having been run by Edward Cecil Moore and Mark Abrahams.
I did a bit more browsing in directories, without uncovering much more, but thought I'd post the results in case they're useful to anyone else.
The "Streets" section of the P. O. Directory shows, for 97 and 99 Whitechapel Road, "Dolphin":
(1) In 1917, Louis Brager.
(2) In 1918, Mark Abrahams.
(3) In 1919, 1920, [1921 not checked] 1922, Edward Cecil Moore and Mark Abrahams.
[Moore appears as a partner in several pubs in the East End and elsewhere. Could this be Sir Edward Cecil Moore, Bt, Alderman of Bishopsgate Ward and Lord Mayor of London 1922-3? It would be strange to think of a baronet as a (presumably) sleeping partner investing in East End pubs, but the coincidence of name and place is interesting.]
(4) In 1923, Hyman Isbitsky.
Presumably it's the same Mark Abrahams who appears in 1916 and 1917 at the "Princess of Wales", 17 Copley St, Stepney. But unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to trace him back earlier - there is no Mark Abrahams in the "Commercial" section of the 1915 directory (John George Wilcox being at the "Princess of Wales").
Chris Phillips
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 623
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:52 pm: |
|
Robert
On your question about Polish records, if I understand correctly there should be records relating to the births of Aaron Kosminski and his siblings, the marriages of his sisters, and also - if, as seems likely, Golda migrated to England in her widowhood - the death of his father, the remarriage of his mother, and the death of his stepfather. Apparently the Polish registration system was a very sophisticated one.
The snag is that there is no national index, as there is for England and Wales, so it's a question of knowing which town to look in. The rates I've seen quoted for searches aren't excessive - $15 an hour - but it would be necessary to know where to look.
The website I referred to before - http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/ - has a wonderful online index to Jewish records from Poland records in progress. Scott Nelson has used this to identify the probable birth records of Martin and Samuel Kosminski. Sooner or later it seems that Aaron's birth must be found by the project.
But in the meantime, I wondered if it might be worth looking into the records of Warta, where Kosminskis abound, and (if "Wattan" = Warta) Morris Kosminski of Berner Street was born.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3889
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 4:27 am: |
|
Hi Chris
Sorry this probably won't help you. The 1891 census does have an Abraham Abrahams, 60, tailor (looks like "merchant tailor") born Warwickshire, living 63 Hackney Rd, Shoreditch. The trouble is, he is married to Sarah, and has daughter Adelaide, and stepchildren John, Louisa and Julia Levy (all born London).
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 624
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 5:13 am: |
|
Robert
Many thanks for those details.
Depending on whether Adelaide's age matches up, it looks as if this is the same man I saw in the Mormon index of the 1881 census yesterday, living at 10 Clarkson St [Bethnal Green?] (RG11/0427, f.51; p. 16). If so, it shows what tricks census records can play:
Abraham ABRAHAMS / Head / M / 52 / Tailor / Whitechapel, Middlesex
Adelaide ABRAHAMS / Wife / M / 59 / / Birmingham, Warwick
Alfred ABRAHAMS / Son / U / 20 / Cabinet Maker / Whitechapel, Middlesex
Harry ABRAHAMS / Son / U / 17 / General Dealer / Whitechapel, Middlesex
Edward ABRAHAMS / Son / U / 10 / Scholar / Bethnal Gn, Middlesex
Adelaide E. ABRAHAMS / Daught / U / 7 / Scholar / Bethnal Gn, Middlesex
The pair of matching index entries consistent with the marriage of Abraham Abrahams to Sarah Levy shows up on FreeBMD, registered in the last quarter of 1885 in London City.
Perhaps it's possible for this man to be Golda's husband, though of course it would involve him marrying a widow 10 years older, when she was in her 70s.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3891
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 5:21 am: |
|
Hi Chris
Re the marriage, the best I could come up with on Free BMD was the following :
Marriages Mar 1898
ABRAHAMS Abraham London C.
1c 98
ANGEL Gulda London C.
1c 98
HOODMAN Julia London City
1c 98
Koski Harris London City
1c 98
This at least gives us a Gulda/Gelda/Golda. The Koski was purely unintentional.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 625
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 5:58 am: |
|
Robert
Thanks - that's interesting.
I see that the Ancestry index for 1891 shows a Gulda Angel aged 14, born in London and living in London. Perhaps this is the woman who married in 1898.
I did a quick search on the 1901 census index for a Gulda or Golda Abrahams or Koski.
I couldn't find any Koski candidates, but there were a couple of Golda Abrahams entries (no Guldas) - one aged 20, born in Turkey and living in Mile End New Town, and the other aged 30, born "London Jewish Foreign Subject" and living in Ratcliff; they are both married, and each is the wife of the head of household.
Looking for an Abraham Abrahams who could be the husband, I found one who was a Master Tailor, aged 30, born "Russia Poland", living in Mile End Old Town; he is married, and the head of household. I couldn't see a candidate in Ratcliff.
Obviously if the 1891 Gulda Angel is the same woman who married in 1898 and the 1898 couple are the ones in Mile End Old Town in 1901, there is a discrepancy in Gulda's birthplace between the two censuses.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3892
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 6:46 am: |
|
Thanks Chris. It's so bewildering!
No luck with the Goldas. The Mile End Golda was married to Harris Abrahams, cigarette maker, while the Ratcliff Golda was married to Isaac Abrahams, slipper manufacturer.
I think the 14 year old Gulda Angel whom you found was the one who married in 1898 - there is a Harris Koski with wife Guilda (age 24) in Chicksand St in 1901.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 626
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:05 am: |
|
Robert
Thanks - the Chicksand Street entry sounds as though it makes sense.
Chris
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Dennis..Australia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:50 am: |
|
Would someone like Mary Kelly, obviously afraid of the Ripper, used to a beter class of client, have allowed a Kosminski into her quarters?
Or did he break in after a better class of client left?
If Hutchinson is innocent and truthful and spotted the Ripper who proffered some articulate speech - it was not K.
Dennis
Australia |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 180
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
|
Chris and Robert,
I think you guys are doing great work. Chris, do you know if there would also be Polish records for divorce? I know that there was a VERY high divorce rate in Poland/Russia before about the middle of the 19th century... it was something like 70% divorce rate, but don't quote me on that.
I am wondering now (in the back of my mind) if Golda may have had children by different men? It is also conceivable that Woolf Kosminski is in fact a brother of Aaron's from when Golda was rather young??
I admit that I am pretty much lost now, but if you guys can come up with a feasable plan of attack for research in Poland, I will chip in for the hourly fees.
Rob H |
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