| Author |
Message |
    
Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 148
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 11:09 am: | 
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I don't think there is a thread for this person anywhere... correct me if I am wrong. Having just re-read Mark King's excellent article, I became re-interested in this person. Notably, he says that a photo exists of Hyams which was taken in 1893-ish I believe. Does anyone have this photo, and if so can you post it?
Also, I am interested in what people think of this suspect.
Rob H
(Message edited by robhouse on December 26, 2004) |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 430
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 3:57 pm: |
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Who he? word word word |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 151
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 4:41 pm: |
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Diana,
Read Mark King's dissertation on Hyam Hyams on this board. It is very interesting, especially as this suspect is in many respect similar sounding to Kosminski... ie. a polish jew, who went insane and was put in an asylum, indulged in "self abuse", etc. Also, interestingly, it seems likely that the family may have been known to Joseph Levy's family, as Levy's wife had lived on Mitre street, next door to Hyam's mother. It is curious (to me anyways) that there is no discussion of this person, and I was just wondering if there is more information about him. Maybe I am missing something. Has he been dismissed as a suspect for some reason?
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 152
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 5:06 pm: |
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sorry, that should read "Mark King's dissertation on Hyam Hyams on this website."
RH |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 431
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 5:31 pm: |
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Fascinating! I had to diagram all the family connections because they were so confusing. My copy of the A-Z doesnt even mention him. (I know they're coming out with new editions all the time, mine was published 1996). So that would make Levy the witness at the Seaside home and he would have refused to identify Hyam Hyams? |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 153
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 7:14 pm: |
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Diana,
I dont know if I would go that far, but it is interesting. I diagrammed the family connections also. But I am still trying to figure out more about Levy's geneaology... when he was born, etc. It is (I guess) possible, that Hyams was Anderson's suspect, but if so, why does McNaughton name "Kosminski"? I really dont think it is the time to jump to any conclusions about anything. Thats why I am asking if anyone has any more information on Hyams. Also, King's article mentions a photograph of Hyams. Can someone post this please?
From the article: in 1888 "Hyam Hyams was a Jew, aged 33, of medium build, 5 feet 7 inches tall, with brown hair and - in a photograph of him taken c.1893-99 - sported a large moustache."
RH |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 432
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 8:10 am: |
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The next step would be to find a diagram of Mitre Square and hilite and label all those addresses so that one could make sense of any patterns that appeared. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1244
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
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Hi Diana
A couple of points.
First, note that Robert said "Mitre Street" not "Mitre Square." You probably know that but I thought I would just point out the distinction in case you didn't notice the difference.
Second, in regard to A to Z, you state, "I know they're coming out with new editions all the time, mine was published 1996." Actually that is the last edition that appeared. I understand from Paul Begg that there are no current plans to bring out a new edition.
I noted on another thread that "Hyams" is a common Jewish name. In Doreen Berger, ed., The Jewish Victorian: Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers (Witney, Oxfordshire, Robert Boyd Publications, 1999), entries for persons of the name Hyam or Hyams take up around 3 1/2 pages of small font, closely packed type. Though many of these entries are for East End families, some are outside of London, in the provinces, or else notices for relatives abroad.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 433
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 10:42 am: |
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Oops! as a matter of fact I didnt catch the street/square thing. |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 434
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 8:18 pm: |
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Here is a map of Mitre Square I found scrounging the web. It only shows #s 8 & 9 Mitre Street, but I'll keep looking. http://www.ripperart.com/mitre.htm
If he lived on Mitre Street why would he take off in the direction of Goulston Street? |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 436
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 9:23 am: |
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This modern map shows the location and length of Mitre Street. It borders Mitre Square on the west side of it. http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=GB&formtype=address&addtohistory=&location=m7I2K1BovRCb6DFtCb%2bS3lK9OHUrNtoonR1E9x0NPdjrXAwoZM8I5doBt3I3J6BAA4%2fpoY5J8GeJaUt6N8QKf5DmnJFO41LEX0%2f92TCM858%3d You have to zoom in to the highest magnification.
(Message edited by diana on December 28, 2004) |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 437
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 9:53 am: |
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This one's even better. http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=533250&Y=181250&gride=&gridn=&scale=5000&coordsys=gb&db=pc&lang=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&localinfosel=&local=&kw=&srec=0&mapsize=big&db=pc&rt= |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 438
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 10:09 am: |
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Anybody want to buy this 1887 map? Shows details of places along Mitre street! http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/collage/app?service=external/Zoom&sp=31612&sp=2 |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 439
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 10:43 am: |
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Can somebody in London show us how the street numbers were/are spaced on Mitre Street? Also, how long is it? |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 7:35 pm: |
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Hi Robert W. House
I posted this on another thread but I think it applies to this thread equally.
There are digitised image archives now on line for free, for family research purposes, and many cover the Jewish community of the East End around the time of the murders.
Among the archives to be found are the original registers of admissions and discharges from The Jews' Free School in the East End 1864 onwards, giving names and addresses of the boys or girls in attendance and names of parents or guardians, minute records concerning Jews being admitted to Colney Hatch assylum ( dates limited ) and admissions to the Whitechapel infirmary and Jewish orphanage.
All primary source material for anyone itching to do some research and for free and without leaving the house and available in whatever country you live!! an opportunity not to be missed!
Lots of photos too.
http://www.movinghere.org.uk/
Debra
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Dr. Orloff
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 8:51 am: |
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"Hyam Hyams was a Jew, aged 33, of medium build, 5 feet 7 inches tall, with brown hair and - in a photograph of him taken c.1893-99 - sported a large moustache."
that's very interesting. i would like to see that picture...
greetings from Warsaw |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 11:00 am: |
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Diana,
Mitre Street was a little less than the length of a football field (100 yards). The numbering went from 1 to 15 on the northeast side from Aldgate-High Street to King Street (with gaps where building had been combined or removed) and from 19 to 40 (King to AHS, also with gaps where premises had been destroyed or combined). In the 1888 directory, you can see Mrs. Solomon Hyams (Hyam's mother) trading as a fruit merchant at no. 29, but by 1889 she is living at no. 24 with Henry Lyons, an uncle of Amelia Levy (Joseph Hyam Levy's wife). Both residences were a little north of and on the opposite side of the entrance to Mitre Square. |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 11:28 am: |
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Oh, another thing: Hyams shows up in the 1881 census living with his mother, Fanny, at no. 29 Mitre Street. He is listed as Hymey Hyams, son, unmarried, 28, born Middlesex, London City, occupation fruiterer (ref: RG 11, film #1341082, piece 0381, folio 40, page 14.) Hymey would later seriously injure his mother's head with a hatchet while in the process of attacking his wife.
Now on the less serious side, it's no wonder he went berserk if he was called 'Hymey.'
Hyams approaches a Whitechapel unfortunate on a darkened streetcorner late one night:, "Hi I'm Hymey, try me." It wouldn't wash. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 11:23 am: |
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Hi Scott
I also noted in The Jewish Victorian that some years before our period of interest the older Mrs. Hyams received some serious injuries when a portion of Duke Street collapsed in the area of an ancient well. Possibly she was prone to bad luck?
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 156
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:14 pm: |
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What about the photo Mark King talks about? Who has it?
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 197
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Just following up on my previous question... does anyone know the whereabouts of this photo of Hyam Hyams?
Thanks
Rob |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 10:30 am: |
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Robert,
My guess would be that Mr. King saw the photo in the Colney Hatch records on Hyams, but he was denied permission to reproduce it. You might want to contact the Ripperologist magazine to see if they have Mr. King's email address. |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 198
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Thanks Scott,
I'll do that. Hey good to hear from you by the way. Any new research happening?
Rob |
