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Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 143
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:49 am: |       |
We've been speculating recently on the many reasons other than the generally put foreward one-some kind of sexual behavior- for MJ Druitt to have been fired from his teaching position.
I don't think there's any question that Druitt did kill himself or that the reason,by his own words, was that he feared he was going to become "like mother". We interpret this,rightly I think, to mean that he feared he was losing his sanity.
We have to remember that we're doing this speculation with our 20th-21st century cultural values and mindsets, and it's important to try to think what might haved caused a Victorian to react the way Druitt did.
The intriguing thing about the suicide note is the phrase "since Friday" and there is good reason to believe that the Friday referred to was the day of the firing. So, what about the firing or the reason for it made Druitt think that he was losing his mind?
Was it that he became fatally depressed about losing his job? He was a pretty successful barrister from what we've seen in newspaper accounts and losing the school job would have freed up more time to practice law, which I'm guessing would be a more lucrative profession.Of course, the humiliation of being let go from the school may have been too much for an emotionally fragile person who had a strong family history of depression (and suicide).
Other reasons for the firing itself that leap to mind could be: spending too much time practicing law or playing cricket, some kind of larceny(which maybe would have got him disbarred?), a major professional disagreement with the Headmaster, caught giving some student passing grades that he didn't deserve...any number of things could have happened.
Given the idea that Druitt was a friend of the
Head , I'm inclined to think,though, that some erratic behavior of his was responsible for the breaking of his relationship with the school. I can easily imagine that his behavior had been becomong more and more unacceptable (and remember that depressives get to a point where they can barely function). The final blow of actually being let go coupled with his already depressed atate could easily have sent him to the river bank.
When I first came to this case 30 years ago I was a confirmed Druittist, mainly because I had only read Cullen. Since then I guess I feel I owe it to his memory to give him as much room for doubt as possible.He will always be a top suspect because of the Mcnaghten Memorandum, and of course the erractic behavior I speculated about could well have been some kind of murderous psychosis.
Still, I don't now believe that Montague John Druitt killed anyone but himself.
Mags |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 657
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:55 am: | |
I don't think it is at all clear why was Monty was sacked. Frankly, the only reason I even suspect homosexuality is Macnaghten's remark that Druitt was "sexually insane." Still, the phrasing, "had gotten himself into serious trouble at the school" seems to point more to something else. I suppose it could well be an instance of inappropriate touching or something like that. It could, as you have properly noted, be something like general neglect of duties, argument with the Headmaster, dispute over grades, or general bizarre behavior due to his emotional instability. The settlement cheques he received tend to indicate either that the offense was not all that serious or, on the contrary, it was so serious that it needed to be hushed.
But we have to remember that we are making several assumptions. We assume that Monty did indeed write the note and that it indeed said what the news article claimed it said. We assume that "Friday" was Friday Nov. 30. We assume that the date of Monty's suicide was the night/morning of December 1-2, etc. Any one of these assumptions could be in error.
What puzzles me is that it is illogical for Monty, a semi-successful barrister, to conclude: "Oh dear, I've been sacked from my teaching job. I guess that means I'll eventually go insane like dear Mummy." But then, the mentally ill don't always behave logically.
Andy S.
|
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 145
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
Agreed, Andy. I just wonder if we can guess from our perspective in 2004 what "serious trouble" could have meant in 1888. And the fact that he was given settlement checks certainly makes me wonder just how serious it was.
I'd like to wrap it up neatly by thinking that he was degrading emotionally and was unable to cope with teaching, but we've seen accounts of his legal performance not too long before his death that don't jibe with that.
Mags |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 6:21 pm: | |
Hi Maria and Andrew,
General bizarre behaviour most likely I would have thought-which if its from somebody becoming psychotic can be seen as quite unmanageable in a private school.
Groping/touching in Victorian times was probably mostly ignored.After all corporal punishment was completely acceptable esp in boys schools[viz Dickens "Dotheboys Hall"].But "overzealous" caning
that caused bruising,cuts or other abrasions could have been taken a dim view of by parents or other schoolmasters depending on the culture of discipline at the school.
I tend to think Druitt had started to behave in such a strange way from time to time he simply couldnt be kept on.
Suicide is always a risk in certain kinds of mental illness.It need not have had a trigger we would recognise.
But there are many forms of sexual behaviour that Victorians would have considered "insane"[and many would still be considered "insane".Charles Dickens certainly considered much of the corporal punishment meted out to young boys as both hideous and cruel,if not perhaps "sexually insane".On the other hand a teacher who seemed perhaps to be sadistic in this respect could have been considered by a man like Macnaghten,an old Etonian himself and probably well aware of the dangers of certain accepted practices in Public Schools at the time to be gaining some kind of twisted pleasure from his punishments.
Poor old Montague,I sincerely hope we do not malign him.But it is an intriguing description of the man "sexually insane" and it would be so helpful to know what Macnaghten meant by it!
Natalie |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 517
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:43 pm: | |
Hi all,
I noticed that the there is a forgotten legal incident of 1860 that can help put some of the possibilities of Monty's activities in the school into perspective - although we can't tell what they were.
In April 1860 the headmaster of a private school at Eastbourne neare Lewes, named Thomas Hopley, flogged a student (Reginald Channell Cancellor) as a punishment. Cancellor died as a result. In July 1860 Hopley was tried at the Lewes assizes, and sentenced to four years penal servitude for manslaughter. Hopley, subsequently wrote and published a pamphlet painting himself as the model of a model Christian schoolmaster.
Obviously nothing like this happened at Monty's workplace (it would have been impossible to cover it up). But if he had an emotional collapse and lashed out at a student with a switch, possibly that might have led to his dismissal. If tied to an emotional collapse, it might also lead to his suicide.
Jeff |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 659
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
Groping/touching in Victorian times was probably mostly ignored.
I thought of this, too, and almost put it in my reply above. Physical contact, including male-to-male, was much more commonly practiced in respectable society in Victorian times than today. Though I think by the late Victorian period this was changing. I think your suggestion of overzealous punishment (whether physical or other) is a distinct possibility. This seems to me to fit better the description of "serious trouble" than a manifestation of homosexuality would.
But it is an intriguing description of the man "sexually insane" and it would be so helpful to know what Macnaghten meant by it!"
Natalie, I do not mean this as a criticism of you, but does anyone else believe Macnaghten could have meant anything other than homosexuality (possibly paedophilia specifically)? I have tried to find information on the term "sexually insane" to see if it might have been a common euphemism, but I have not been able to find it elsewhere.
Andy S.
|
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 660
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
Has anybody ever though about following up on former pupils of Valentine's school?
I recently discovered a letter printed in 1936 in the Times of London in response to an article that paper had run about "Old Blackheath." The letter was from Sir William Reynolds-Stephens, the noted English sculptor (actually born in Detroit, USA, of British parentage). Sir William had been a pupil at Valentine's school. He was just "William Stephens" at that time (note: this is Stephens, with an "s" and not Stephen as in J.K.). I cannot tell exactly when he was there but he mentions Valentine as the Head. From what limited biographies I have found online, Stephens was studying art elsewhere by the mid-1880's, but he could have overlapped Druitt's early years at Valentine's.
According to his obit (1943), Sir William was married to "Annie", the daughter of Thomas Ridpath. The obit does not mention children. He died at Tunbridge Wells. When he wrote his letter to the Times in 1936 he was apparently living at St. John's Woood.
I am relating all this because here we have a prominent, and therefore traceable, individual who could have had a connection with Druitt's teaching career. It would be interesting to know if he left any stories behind, written or oral, about an eccentric or possibly sadistic assistant master at Valentine's.
Perhaps there are other traceable former pupils of Monty's that could be researched. The 1891 census might be of help -- though these students would have to have been at the school for three years by then.
Something perhaps to look into.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on December 08, 2004) |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 554
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:18 pm: | |
Andrew
Following a tip from Martin Fido, I did track down two references by Oscar Wilde in 1896 to his homosexuality as "sexual insanity" or a form of "sexual madness":
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4922&post=73025#POST73025
With regard to the wording of the Macnaghten memoranda, is it significant that he speaks of it being "alleged" that Druitt was sexually insane? In the mouth of a police officer, does this imply that an "allegation" of sexual misconduct had been made against Druitt?
It's also interesting that Wilde expresses a fear that "this insanity, that displayed itself in monstrous sexual perversion before, may now extend to the entire nature and intellect".
Could there be a parallel with the fear expressed in Druitt's suicide note, that he was going to be "like mother"?
Chris Phillips
(Message edited by cgp100 on December 08, 2004) |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 661
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:43 pm: | |
Chris,
Yes, there could indeed be a parallel.
Thanks for the Wilde reference on "sexual insanity." I think Macnaghten's reference is most probably to homosexuality/paedophelia but I did some quick checking and found out that similar phrases do refer to other offenses. A 1918 Times article refers to bigamy as "sexual madness." I also saw some Victorian references to "spiritualism" (!) as a form of "sexual derangement." The phrase "sexual insanity" and similar phrases were probably more general that I originally thought. One begins to see the emergence of Freudian thought.
Andy S.
|
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 456
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 1:43 pm: | |
I believe that Monty was Bi-Polar. During hypomanic periods he was able to handle 2 jobs and his athletic commitments with ease, when the depression hit, all of his life would suffer. I think after enough ups and downs and erratic behavior, the school would have had enough and let him go. Just my humble opinion and nothing more.
Does his sexuality really matter unless it had something to do with his dismissal?
Mikey
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 2:55 pm: | |
I could see if there are any references to Valentine"s school in the local history section of the appropriate local library.I wonder too whether the local paper carried news of pupils-awards,sports events or other school functions.
For many years the local papers carried news of pupil"s entrance examinations for Oxford and Cambridge as well as for the civil service and military colleges and the like.In any event there are bound to be books and pamphlets in the local library on small pieces of research into the locality and I doubt all of these have been microfilmed or been anywhere other than the local library.In a book on Ealing and Hanwell I have there are a number of photographs of pupils and masters and schoolmistresses in the 1880" and 1890"s.One of the yardsticks parents used when evaluating a school was exam success for these institutions.For example Castle Hill School Ealing claimed in 1893 that out of 56 boys entered for the locals[Oxbridge]49 passed,18 in honours.Out of 14 entered in 1892,11 passed,three being seniors.
So I think there must still be records like this in existence for Valentine School.
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 3:58 pm: | |
Hi Mikey,have just read your comments.Glad to see you back too!
Well I think his sexuality does matter here because if we are talking about it contributing to his depression I would take issue with that.Neurotic people may be very disturbed about various aspects of living including their sexuality and among neurotic people are both heterosexual and homosexual personalities.Perhaps Druitt was neurotic.
But homosexuality of itself would not have caused depression in my opinion.Indeed unlike an illness such as neurosis,schizophrenia or manic depression[bipolar?] his homosexuality if it existed would have been most unlikely to laden him with conscience or develop an anxiety state[leading to suicide]because of his homosexuality alone.Far from it I would have thought.
However a schizoid personality often does lack
heterosexual drive -may even appear rather camp-but is not homosexual.In fact when confined to a group of his own sex a schizoid personality will often become fearful,excitable and terrified,and may develop a transient psychosis known as homosexual panic.This I have just read in a book which studied the reactions of various patients at the US Naval Hospital in Charleston South Carolina just after the second world war [patients who had for example through nervousness or other conditions been unable to serve satisfactorily in the navy].Its by a Psychiatrist named JD Campbell and entitled Everyday Psychiatry.
In It he draws a sharp distinction between Homosexuality and Homosexual Panic and details the destructive effect the latter but NOT the former may have on a person who for example could develop paranoid schizophrenia in an all male institution.
He gives the following example:
P.H.A.was a slender,effeminate young man presenting a perplexed,exciteable facial expression.He had the typical asthenic habitus and long tapering fingers of the schizoid personality.Vulgar stories seemed to aggravate his sensitiveness and when the subject of "queers"was discussed in the barracks he became particularly uncomfortable.He developed a conscious fear that he might approach another boy in the showers and thus disgrace himself.Finally an episode occurred which brought the patient to the hospital.
I am not saying though that Druitt was Schizophrenic though we are 99% certain this was the illness his mother had and it can often be inherited.But you are right Mikey when you point out that he was a boisterous athlete----and that is not typical of a person with latent or active paranoid schizophrenia-not as far as I can tell from this particular book.
Natalie |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 457
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 4:19 pm: | |
Nats,
Yes, manic depression is bipolar disorder, an illness I myself suffer from. My main reason for thinking that Monty was bipolar was that he led such a busy life, yet obviously suffered from depression. Many bipolars who go untreated suffer from suicidal ideation and some will eventually go through with it. I am speaking from experience and a whole lot of research here.
To what extant his possible homosexuality played in his depression, we have no real way of knowing.
Thanks for the info regarding homosexual panic, I had never heard the term before.
Mikey |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 663
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 4:28 pm: | |
Natalie,
If you're in a position to run down to Blackheath and check local references on George Valentine's Eliot Place School, go for it my dear! Any information on former pupils -- or, of course, Monty himself, would be greatly appreciated.
Perhaps on my next trip across the pond I'll get down to Blackheath as I've been meaning to. Trouble is, my trips are so brief that I don't have the time to spend on a lot of research. Still hoping for a jaunt to London in Spring when the airline fares are at their lowest. We'll see,
Andy S.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Mikey,
thanks for the information on Bipolar disorder.Now that is really interesting with regards to Druitt and the busy busy life he led.He is such an enigma.The letter I read that he wrote to his uncle about his niece and her progress in Latin[I seem to remember] was very correct full of a rather cold concern,with a clear desire to keep the contents free of emotion-either to his uncle or his niece.There was nothing Dickensian about it-no warmth or humour or carefree aside.In fact rather a cold fish you would conclude from this one letter mind.
But a man who took his responsibilities extremely seriously.
Thankyou Mikey for sharing the above.You certainly sound good now anyway so I hope it stays that way.
Hi Andrew,
I will try to get over there.Its the other side of London so I would have to make a special journey.But I think it would be worth it.Meanwhile I shall contact the local library and find out what historical publications they have.That will be a start anyway.Looks like I"ll manage such a trip about March or so but I may get some of the info before that.
Natalie
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3626
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 6:02 pm: | |
Leaving the sexuality thing aside for a moment, it's clear that Monty's life was full of deadlines - homework had to be marked, legal cases prepared, etc etc etc. Question : what kind of people are guaranteed to make you miss a deadline? Answer : children. If Monty was under pressure regarding his mother and the deadline-juggling that he had to achieve, he may well have lost his temper in a big way at some point.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 665
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 7:01 pm: | |
Robert, I had never considered the possibility of physical abuse toward a student, such as overzealous corporal punishment, before today as a reason for Monty's being sacked. The more I think about it the more it makes sense. But I suppose we'll never know for certain.
Mikey, the only reason I brought up Monty sexuality was as a possible reason for his being sacked.
Natalie, it would be wonderful if you get the chance to research this. I think there is a lot to be answered that perhaps can be at least partially answered. It's funny to me that you say you can't get away to Blackheath until March, although I perfectly understand the demands of the real world. It's funny because if I make the trip this year that's probably when I would go. It seems that your journey of perhaps 30 miles or so is as great a hurdle as my 4000 mile jaunt!
Andy S.
|
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 150
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:36 pm: | |
Hope this can be of some help.
1881 Census For Valentine School
George VALENTINE Head U Male 39 Bombay,India Schoolmaster B.A.
Louisa VALENTINE Mother W Female 66 Nervis,West Indies
Mark Francis James MANN Assistant U Male 25 Guernsey,Channel Islands Assistant Schoolmaster B.A.
Montague DRUK Assistant U Male 23 Winborne, Dorset, England Assistant Schoolmaster B.A.
Pupils/Scholars
Henry LIESCHINY Male 17 Tangelle, Ceylon
Ernest BORWICK Male 16 Walthamstow, Essex, England
William WALKER Male 16 Rosano B S, Argentine
John D. MENNIE Male 16 Poonah, India
W. Reginald ELLIN Male 16 Sheffield, York, England
Edward A. UGIELLI Male 15 London, Middlesex, England
Henry F. MACKERN Male 15 Buenos Ayres B S, Argentine
William F. TYLER Male 15 NSL Woolton, Somerset, England
Albert BRIDGES Male 15 Berbice, British Guiana
Julius SAVORY Male 15 London, Middlesex, England
Nathaniel B. WINTER Male 14 New Amsterdam, British Guiana
George H. MACKERN Male 14 Limerick, Ireland
Tufnell B. SOUTHGATE Male 14 Lee, Kent, England
Arthur BOUSFIELD Male 14 Lee, Kent, England
Douglas C. UGIELLI Male 14 London, Middlesex, England
Servants
Elizabeth SMITH U Female 23 Woolwich, Kent, England Housemaid
Alice S. APPS U Female 18 Bromley, Middlesex, England Kitchen Maid Herbert J. CLARKE U male 15 Sherborn,York, England Stable Boy
Source Information
Dwelling: 9 Eliot Place
Census Place: Lewisham, Kent, England
Family History Library Film: 1341170
Public Records Office Reference: RG11
Piece/Folio: 0729/60
Page Number: 2
Nina
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 519
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 9:25 pm: | |
Question: Based on the splendid research of the Valentine school in the 1881 Census by Nina, I noticed the following -
Student Body:
1 17 year old student
4 16 year old students
5 15 year old students
5 14 year old students.
This suggests to me that Mr. Valentine had three years of courses at the school, with only five students (the 17 year old was with the four 16 year old students as "seniors") in each class. Was it normal for a small scale boarding school like Valentine's to limit itself to only five students per class?
Mr. Valentine was from Bombay, India. His wife Louisa was from the isle of St. Nervis in the Caribbean. Monty and fellow assistant schoolmaster Mann are from the British Isles (Mann from the isle of Guernsey). The three servants are from the British isles. But 9 of the students are from the British isles (one from Ireland). The remaining 6 are from around the globe, though (presumably - based on their names) of English/British descent. Two are from Argentina, two from British Guiana, one from India, one from Ceylon. Was the choice of these students based on their families or on their financial situation (in which case the foreign born students may have been chosen because they could not afford better schools?).
Since Druk is a misspelling writing of Druitt, one wonders if the other names of the students and servants were also misspelling.
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:58 am: | |
Hi All,
First a big Thankyou to Nina for that brilliant research!
Jeff,I think the British class system in those days especially determined which schools accepted which pupils-with waiting lists for Eton and Harrow [and possibly Winchester] and preference given to class connections ,old boys etc.
Many Victorian private schools seem to have had few pupils per year group though this one seems especially tiny.
Andrew,yes -its more the type of journey this time of year across the London traffic and through the equally traffic blocked roads on the other side.In Summer you can take the boat from Westminster down the Thames to Greenwich where there is a splendid Local History Museum at Royal Arsenal.This is where there is microfilm on the local papers of 1888 etc.One needs to scroll laboriously through this[although there is a service at the library costing £5 per half hour].I have done this kind of research myself and it really is time consuming but usually something turns up that others have missed.
I will actually try to get over there in January.
Meanwhile I am going to try to get hold of a local history book "Greenwich and Blackheath Past".I have one from the same series and its excellent but the one I want is now out of print so I need to call it up through my local library.
Best Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3627
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 6:24 am: | |
Hi all
i think when Chris Scott found the school in 1891, there were hardly any boys at all - his suggested explanation being that perhaps it was the start of holiday time and most pupils had gone off. Maybe the holidays influenced the census in 1881?
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1273
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 7:53 am: | |
Hi Robert,we might be able to find this out from the local history library but they have also given me an other address regarding old school records.Apparently when a school closes or even I think when pupils leave[or used to leave]such information had to be sent to the following instiution:
London Metro Archives
40 Northhampton Road,EC1 ROHB
I was told by the librarian that all records on Eliot Place should be there.She said they MOSTLY are but that there can be omissions.
Again I would be prepared to go there after Christmas---its not far from here actually but what with crowded tubes and congestion charges etc I"d prefer not to go at the busiest time before Christmas!
Natalie |
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 149
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 11:08 am: | |
We've been assuming that Druitt was homosexual based on the "sexually insane" comment, but now we know that that term and others like it were used pretty widely to address, it seems, just about any behavior that the user didn't care for.
If we broaden the definition of "sexually insane" then, we could make a case that any kind of aberrant behavior could be included. Maybe Druitt was exhibiting an untoward interest in one of the servants. I get the impression from Regency era novels that this sort of behavior was standard then, but perhaps it was more frowned on in the LVP.
I say this because if you're going to make a case that Druitt was the Ripper (which I don't believe) then it really helps to have him be hetero.
Mags |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 11:22 am: | |
I would ask whether there was a vocabulary for being "gay/homosexual" in 1888 which a man like Druitt might have used of himself. He might have had drives within him, compulsions even, for which he had no name - something which might have led to concern about his own sanity.
TE Lawrence (of Arabia) was to my mind almost certainly homosexual (or at least strongly bi-sexual) but I suspect that he never called himself by a contemporary term - hence i think the tensions and motivations that dictated his starnge and aberrant career, and the S&M beatings in his later life.
Now both Lawrence and druitt were classicists and would have known about both ancient Greek and Roman approaches to male/male sexuality - but whether they would have applied the concepts to themselves is another matter.
Incidentally there is a photo of a letter by Druitt in "Letters from Hell" that might throw light on him as a teacher. He writes to an uncle and talks of (his neice's) ability in Latin. I get the picture of a rather dry, pedantic tutor. I'm not sure there was much imagination, or humour, there.
Just some thoughts,
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 1:00 pm: | |
Hi Phil, Yes thats the letter I have read and actually its the one I am writing about above.Its exactly what I thought.A serious,humourless letter that seems to lack affection even though I seem to recall that he opened the letter with affectionate ,while conventionally polite phrasing
"My Dear Uncle so and so" sort of thing.
One thing comes across to me from Nina"s research
above is that George Valentine himself was unmarried and living with his mother which might
indicate that both he and Druitt didnt care for the company of women[other than their mothers].Well we dont know whether Druitt was that attached to his mother either.I suspect he was finding her behaviour a bit of a trial since she thought she was being electrocuted and was reluctant to spend any money.
But none of this means we have to assume that Druitt was gay either.
He seems to have been more at ease in male company I would guess.He seems to have loved his Cricketing days and taken on a whole pile of responsibilities connected with it.We hear on feb 7th at a board mtg of Blackheath Cricket club"It was resolved that the directors had heard with much regret of the death of Mr MJ Druitt who had zealously fulfilled the duties of Honorary secretary and Treasurer for three years."[from Paul Begg"s JtR The Facts]. In other words he seems to have ran the whole thing single handed since its merger with Morden Cricket club three years before.I do see what Mikey was getting at when he talks of Druitt being a very busy man.If he wasnt flying over to Blackheath to play cricket he was teaching at the school or successfully carrying out his legal work [he represented and won an appeal regarding the family business on 22nd of November[13 days after Mary Kelly"s death].On 19th of that same month he was present at a board mtg of the cricket club and seems to have led proposals to extend the land around the club by one acre.
Not much so far to indicate he was losing it!
Maybe his mothers health was the last straw or something in a long list of family pressures-what"s that line---"your parents they f*ck you up"
all very puzzling.Maybe it was his mother who gave it out that Monty was the ripper at which point Monty had had enough!Speculation thats all.
Natalie |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 667
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 3:02 pm: | |
I'd just be careful about putting too much emphasis on one letter. Victorians often wrote in a matter-of-fact tone when discussing mundane "business." His niece's Latin studies could fall into that category. On the contrary, I would imagine highly excitable, enthusiastic competitor at cricket and hockey. Incidentally, is this ice hockey or field hockey that Monty played? The reason I ask is that I've seen contemporary references to women playing hockey, which I assume would be field hockey.
I might add that it seems Stephens had already left Eliot Place by 1881, which makes sense as he would have been 19 by then. So, chances are that he did not overlap Druitt's teaching career at all.
Natalie, it would be great if you would have a look at the official records. But I also think that the local library in Blackheath and the local newpaper (if archives exists) would be a vualuable source of contemporary news of the institution. Might the library or local historical society even have some correspondence of Mr. Valentine's?
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on December 09, 2004) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1277
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 3:37 pm: | |
Andrew,I wrote to the Local History centre today
and hope to hear from them early in the New Year.I have asked for information from the LOCAL newspapers from 1880-1891/2 on the school in particular and anything at all relating to it as well as anything we dont have on Morden/Blackheath Cricket Club.They have agreed to help if they can.
You may be right over the letter contents though someone like Dickens often comes across with an almost nauseating sentimentality which contrasts very strongly with the tone of this letter.But yes it was a sort of business letter
concerning his niece"s progress in Latin.
Best Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3629
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
Here's an item from Jan 30th 1884 which suggests the school was prestigious enough to be included on a CV.
Cheltenham College rings a bell. I think there was a candidate for JT Homer there, but in the end we decided that this was a different Homer.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:30 pm: | |
Hi Andy S
Indeed there is only one pupil listed ay Eliot Place in 1891.
There is a full list of pupils in the 1881 listing and I did do a follow up on those I could find of these on another thread. here is the list from 1881:
Head of Household: George Valentine aged 39 born Bombay
Louisa Valentine (mother of George) aged 66 born Nevis, West Indies
Staff:
Mark Francis James Mann: aged 25 born Guernsey Assistant schoolmaster B.A.
Montague Druk: aged 23 born Wimborne, Dorset Assistant schoolmaster B.A.
Pupils:
Henry Lieschiny: aged 17 born Tangelle, Ceylon
Ernest Borwick: aged 16 born Walthamstow, Essex
William Walker: aged 16 born Rosano, Argentine
John D Mennie: aged 16 born Poonah, India
W Reginald Ellin: aged 16 born Sheffield, Yorkshire
Edward A Ugielli: aged 15 born London
Henry F Mackern: aged 15 born Buenos Aires, Argentine
William F Tyler: aged 15 born Woolton, Somerset
Albert Bridges: aged 15 born Berbice, British Guiana
Julius Savory: aged 15 born London
Nathaniel B Winter: aged 14 born New Amsterdam, British Guiana
George H Mackern: aged 14 born Limerick, Ireland
Tufnell B Southgate: aged 14 born Lee, Kent
Arthur Bousfield: aged 14 born Lee, Kent
Douglas C Ugielli: aged 14 born London
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:43 pm: | |
Found the notes I posted before:
Surname: Mennie
Given Name: John Oliver
Birth Date: 28 Dec 64
FIRST COMM: 6 Feb 84
DATE RANK: 6 Feb 10
RANK: Colonels & Lieutenant-Colonels
COMPANY: British Officers of the Indian Army
REMARKS: 130 Baluchis
Page #: 94
Julius Charles O. Savory:
Married September 1898 to
Ellen Arding in Bristol
George Henry Mackern
Married Deptember 1894 at Lewisham
Tufnell Becket Southgate
Married September 1895 to
Anna Wade in Camberwell
Bousfield, Arthur.
College: TRINITY HALL
Entered: Michs. 1885
Born:
Died:
Adm at TRINITY HALL, 1885. S. of J[ohn], Esq., of Blackheath. Matric. Michs. 1885; Scholar, 1886; B.A. 1888. At King's College, London. M.B. (London) 1896; M.D. 1905 (gold medal). House Physician at King's College Hospital. M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., 1895. Late Medical Officer of the Alexandra Orphanage, Hornsey Rise. Of Tudor Lodge, Hornsey Lane, Crouch End, N. 6 (Bousfield and Stowers). Brother of Stanley (1889). (Medical Directory, 1938.)
Home Address in 1881
4 Lee Terrace, Lee, Kent, England
Household:
John BOUSFIELD Head M Male 62 London, London, Middlesex, England
Sarah BOUSFIELD Wife M Female 53 Lee, Kent, England
Jessie BOUSFIELD Daur U Female 20 Lee, Kent, England
Stanley BOUSFIELD Son Male 9 Lee, Kent, England
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:48 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Just seen the clipping re CV
Interesting but we have to be a little cautious in that there was another boy's school in Eliot Place so it is not absolutely certain which one the advertiser was referring to
All the best
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3632
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Oh no, not two!
I searched under "Eliot Place School" because i saw Valentine referring to it thus when advertising for staff.
If he'd only call it "Ripper School"!
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Hi Chris,this detailed information I must have missed.How could we progress it?It would be difficult to contact these people although we could think about putting together a programme for one of the TV networks covering half a dozen suspects and arranging it like Crime Watch so that viewers are requested to write or email us if they know of anyone in their families who knew anything about any of the suspects.Ace research Chris!Hats off as Glenn would say!
Is it an idea worth thinking about?
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3635
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:48 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
I couldn't find any reference to Valentine or his school for the LMA on the A2A site. Hopefully that's just me.
Anyway, if you live near there it might be worth popping in.
Robert |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:07 pm: | |
Hi Robert,Andy and all:
Interesting topic and alot of good thoughts. I do not have much knowledge on this subject. It is like surfing South Beach all your life and then going to the North Shore. Do you belong? No but you still want to stick your toe in the water.
Any information that Macnaughten had on Druitt most likely was second hand information. However, he clearly states that Druitt was sexually insane. It does not appear to me that Druitts sexuall insanity had any thing to do with Macnaughten's private information regarding Druitt. He states at the begining of his remarks about Druitt that he was sexually insane and then he writes he recieved private information that the family believed druitt to be the ripper. For example, He does not write that he recieved private information that Druitt was sexually insane and the family believed him to be the ripper. He wrote that Druitt was sexually insane and that he recieved private information that his family believed he was the ripper. This leads me to believe that sexually insanity was not part of the private information that Macnaughten recieved. Sexually insane was a term used to discribe homosexualls but it also was a term used to discribe any sexuall behavior that was percieved as sexually deveiant in 1888. Macnaughten must of had some reason to suggest that Druitt was sexually insane and the reason might of had something to do with his being let go from his position at the school. I do not believe it had anything to do with any private information that he recieved that Druitt was the ripper. He may of had a relationship with a man that was discoverd and the scandel was enough to fire him from his position. Robert and Jeff make another good point. He may have been to strict with a student. There are alot of reason why he could have been fired.
I have to go now and I am not finished. My girlfriend has to use the phone and she is giveing me hell so I can not check my spelling. I hope that you can make sence of my post and I promise I spelled Does correctly this time.
Your friend,CB |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1282
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 6:02 pm: | |
Hi Robert,I"m not so familiar as you are with some of these sites.What is the LMA ?The place I have contacted today is able to scroll local newspapers that have"nt usually seen the light of day since they were printed.Very few would get to Collindale.There is therefore a slight chance that
there may be one or two snippets that could throw some light on things that went on in the school-eg Garden parties -attended by whom?An illustrious scholar such as you have highlighted today who missed the national press but whose name might ring a bell.A dispute that made local but not national news.The closure of the school-was it noted?Some of these items get missed and can only be spotted through trailing the microfilm.
Best Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3637
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 6:35 pm: | |
Hi CB
Yes, although in the draft report Sir MM says, "From private information I have little doubt but that his own family suspected this man of being the Whitechapel murderer ; it was alleged that he was sexually insane." This version does (!) seem to offer the sexual insanity as a ground of his family's suspicions.
Natalie, sorry, it's the place you mentioned previously - London Metropolitan Archives.
I think the local newspapers are well worth a trawl for background info on the school. I doubt if you'll find an inquest report there, though, as Keith Skinner would have found it by now. I can't help feeling there is an undiscovered inquest report, but it could be anywhere.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 668
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 12:12 am: | |
Robert,
I can't help but think there is a lot of information relating to Druitt yet to be uncovered. Look, a simple check of the Times recently proved that Monty was in court and functioning normally during the week prior to his disappearance! Has anyone bothered to look up his death certificate? Local newspapers from Blackheath, Lewisham, even Greenwich might turn up surprising information as might other files in a local library or historical society. I think I'm talking myself into a Blackheath detour when next I am in London.
Andy S.
|
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 557
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 4:20 am: | |
Has anyone bothered to look up his death certificate?
That's where Farson started in the 1950s, isn't it?
My memory may be playing tricks, but I thought the details had been posted here, either on the old or on the new boards.
Chris Phillips
|
mvario
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 7:41 pm: | |
My guess is that they off-shored his job to India. |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 6:26 pm: | |
Hi,
One more question. Who was Macnaughten protecting? He was not protecting the family or Druitt. He would not have given the name of the suspect if he wanted to protect the suspect or his family. I realise that it was not considerd proper to comment on unsolved cases but he did imply that he knew who the ripper was and he gave us the name of Druitt. So why burn the evidence? Either he portecting the person who confided in him or there was someone or something implicated with information that he did not want to leak out. He may not have wanted to repeat second hand information.
Your friend,CB |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 151
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 10:42 am: | |
If Druitt was "sexually insane" and that meant Gay, then regardless of what his family may have thought, his odds of being the Ripper are reduced to virtually zero.
With all the hooha going about re the crimes at the time, I'm sure that lots of families must have wondered about various members who were a little strange. Assuming that the average Victorian didn't have much knowledge of psychology and would have probably have lumped all kinds of sexual "deviations" together, I can understand the following train of thought:
Monty is "sexually insane"
Monty has been acting very peculiarly lately(depressed, forgetful, disorganized, halucinatory, depending on what he was suffering from)
The Ripper must be a monster-someone who goes around exhibiting the same kind of weird behavior we've seen from Monty lately
therefore
Monty must be the Ripper
I don't think you can blame the family for this kind of thought, and poor Monty himself,it seems from his note, felt that he was losing it so badly that there was no alternative but suicide.
Mags |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 11:08 am: | |
CB-dont forget that this was an "internal" police memo Donald Rumbelow told me [when I went on one of the walks]that most of the police at the time would not have seen it.
Maria,I myself dont actually think they did mean "gay"----it would have made as little sense then as now!
Sexually insane could have meant many things.
Houses of "ill repute" existed then as they probably do now where people could request flagellation for example and any one other than say a religious person such as a monk could have been seen as "sexually insane" for desiring such a painful experience!But this isnt my own take on Druitt actually.I see him as not that interested but just possibly a bit keen on corporal punishment-especially as he had been at an all boys public school where it was usually the norm.If he began to be overactive in this regard this alone could have led to his dismissal.Its just one possibility.
Natalie |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 671
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 4:40 pm: | |
Has anyone bothered to look up his death certificate?
That's where Farson started in the 1950s, isn't it?
I don't know. I never read Farson. When I brought up the topic of Druitt's death certificate in relation to the Times account of his estate settlement I was met with only vague statements that it should be available. Therefore, I assumed it had not been checked.
Standard sources show death certificates of the victims, yet I've never seen or heard mention of Druitt's.
Do you have a copy of Farson? What is the death date on Monty's certificate?
Andy S.
|
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 559
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 6:41 pm: | |
Farson's only direct quotation from the death certificate is this: "Found dead drowned by his own act whilst of unsound mind." He also says that the death was registered 2 January 1889, which must also come from the death certificate. His account suggests that his age is given as 31, and - perhaps - his occupation as barrister.
Elsewhere, he says "Montague Druitt was last seen alive on 3 December 1888", though whether that comes from the death certificate or elsewhere isn't clear.
Chris Phillips
|
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 311
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 9:26 pm: | |
Dear All,
I agree Macnaghten -despite his Memorandum being an internal briefing document for Home Office & senior Police eyes only- was being discreet in revealing the name of Druitt, along with the other two. Elsewhere he states that to say more would only cause upset to the family of Druitt.
Regarding the Victorian era use of the term "Sexually Insane". The Victorian era was all about PUBLIC restraint. That is, you could beat your wife and children brutally behind closed doors, but out in public, you behaved with " Christian decorum and restraint". Call it.."Keeping Up Appearances".
So, after reading Chris Phillips' and Martin Fido's discovered references to contemporary use of the term "Sexual Insanity" on another thread, I conclude the term means "an inability to show restraint sexually: A Sex Maniac: Always chatting up, groping, "coming on strongly with unwanted attentions to some helpless person". Usually younger or slighter in build. Or of weaker-presumed weaker- mental defences.
Oscar Wilde has made it perfectly clear BEAUTY excited him beyond control.
I will once again draw poster's attention to the comment made by George R Sims, celebrity reporter and close pal of Macnaghten's, that Druitt had a
serious dislike of a certain class of women of the street.(I paraphrase).
Look this up in the "Press Reports" for the LLOYDS WEEKLY REGISTER of September, 1907, which you will find on the Casebook site.
The authority for Farson stating Druitt was last seen alive on the 3rd December, 1888, seems to be
his brother William's assertion mentioned recently on another thread quoting Probate Calendars. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 523
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 1:12 am: | |
Hi all,
Back in the 1970s New York City was plagued by the Son of Sam murders. It was a pretty scary time, and I hated walking home late at night - until David Berkowitz was arrested. But at one point the tabloids started printing identikit sketches from witnesses of possible suspects (few of which really looked like Berkowitz). But I was startled by one of them - a drawing that resembled somebody I knew.
The person I knew from college, and was a really likeable fellow. But a year or so before the Son of Sam rampage I had gotten a peculiar phone call from this fellow, which left me wondering about him and his mental health. For weeks I did not know what to do, and I even discussed the matter with another college friend (who had also seen the resemblance in the identikit sketch). We decided we just did not have enough information to go with to the police.
As it turned out the college person I knew was not involved at all, but shortly got married and began raising a family. I only spoke to him once after 1977, and he seemed to be doing well.
So yes, I can see how easy it is to get suspicious of people one knows. The Druitt family could have been right about Monty, but they could just have easily have been off the mark. He may just have had personal demons of a self-destructive type, not demons of a homicidal type.
Macnaghten was protecting someone when he mentioned Druitt (and Ostrog and Kosminski, for that matter). He was protecting Thomas Cutbush, who was widely touted by the newspaper THE SUN as Jack the Ripper in 1894. With Cutbush's family connection to the Yard possibly Sir Melville was throwing up three red herrings to take the heat off the actual killer. Or perhaps Sir Melville really believed that one of the three men was the genuine Ripper. Without more research we can't tell.
Jeff |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 673
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 1:48 am: | |
Thanks, Chris , for looking up Farson's reference to Druitt's death certificate. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer our question as to whether the certificate lists a date of death and what that date might be.
John Savage uncovered a listing in the National Probate Calendar which clearly indicated that Druitt was last seen alive on December 3. John later added that the probate registry informed him that these dates would be taken from the death certificate. Therefore, since Farson presumably saw the certificate and does not contradict this, I have reason to believe that Monty death -- or at least his last being seen -- was legally recorded as December 3. This may well be the origin of that date being inscribed on his gravestone.
It would be well if someone could actually access the death certificate to see for sure. I don't mean to be splitting hairs, but again, there seems to be a whole lot more to Druitt that first met my eye.
Andy S. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1609
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 3:19 am: | |
Just for info:
if anyone wishes to apply for Druitt's death certificate, the full reference is:
Quarter 1 (Jan-Mar) 1889
Brentford Volume 3a Page 65
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 11:53 am: | |
I think "sexually insane probably means masturbation, in Druitt's case. I think Macnaghten might have used a more precise word had he been referring to either relationships with men, or an interest in children. One cannot rule out the homosexual meaning of the words entirely though, in my view.
There is one other possible meaning of the words "sexually insane" though, that I have never seen discussed. Could it mean syphilis, the final stages of which are sometimes referred to in a similar way - general paralysis of the insane. Could Druitt have had syphilis?
Victorians like MM were scrupulous about integrity - remember even his daughter years later copied out the notes and was oblique about names, even then impressing confidentiality on Cullen.
MM would have destroyed his papers BECAUSE they were given to him in confidence. His memorandum was a confidential minute on an official file.
Just some thoughts,
Phil |
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