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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Suspects » Druitt, Montague John » Doese or did the Diogenes council exist? « Previous Next »

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CB
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I read at another site that Druitt was associated with the Diogenes council. A committee of unofficial advisors to the government on secret matters, founded around 1800 and re-formed in the 1860's? Is this true?

Your friend,CB
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage

Post Number: 281
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi CB

I expect the web site you refer to is darkshire net.
If so I think we may discount the Diogenes Council as fiction, seeing that another member of this council was said to be Mycroft Holmes (the brother of Sherlock). Fu Man Chu also seems to crop up, but as none of the descriptions of Jack mention a china man, I fail to see how he got there.

All very confusing.

Best Regards
John Savage
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 509
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am aware of The Diogenes Club, in Conan Doyle's story "The Adventure of the Greek Interpreter: in THE MEMOIRS OF SHERLOCK HOLMES, but Mycroft was a member of that club - I am unaware of the Diogenes Council. Of course, in the "Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans" in THE RETURN OF SHERLOCK HOLMES (I think it's that collection) Sherlock Holmes tells Watson that Mycroft is a key, but little known, problem solver for the British Government.

So where does the Diogenes Council come form?

Best wishes,
Jeff
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3560
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 6:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Presumably if Monty was a member, he kept quiet about it.

Does anyone know anything about this item from the "Times" July 15th 1889?



PS Jeff, I think the BPP was in "His Last Bow".

Robert
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 303
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 6:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Robert Charles,
Very tantalising item.
It looks as if it could be Montague Druitt's Will.
(Though, I think someone has already posted an details regarding that from the Wills/Probate Index).
The only other possibility could be Uncle ROBERT DRUITT's Will from 1885. He had London property
had published a best-selling book on the edifying effects of Wine-bibbing, and had been Editor of a Medical Journal. His estate could have been involved, and hence, took time to clear up. The newspaper mentions "Trusts". So it is likely to be a Druitt with children.

Montague's mother, Ann, did not die until November 1890.
The papers would be interesting to locate since Monty's brother William, I think, handled the family probates.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3566
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi John

Yes, I suppose it could be Robert. But he died in 1883, so for his will to be still in dispute six years later, though possible, is a bit odd - with such a strong legal presence in the family, you'd have thought he'd have had the will drawn up fairly carefully.

Calling probate maestro John Savage!

Robert
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage

Post Number: 282
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert,

"Probate Maestro", I like that. I will have a search next week of the probate calendars and see what I can turn up.

By the way it does sometimes happen that probate is granted several years after the death if their are problems or disputes.

Best Regards
Austin Maestro
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3570
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, John. Should be interesting.

Robert (tea maestro)
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage

Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert,

I searched the registers from 1885-95, other Druitts found in the the register of this period are not included as they all lived in other parts of the country and there was no reference to Wimbourne/Bournemouth area.

National Probate Calendar 1885

Druitt William
Personal Estate 16,579 4s 5d.
19 November the will with a codicil of William Druitt late of Wimbourne Minster in the County of Dorset surgeon who died 27 September 1885 at Wimbourne Minster was proved at the Principal Registry by Ann Druitt widow of the relict and Georgina Elizabeth Druitt spinster the daughter both of Wimbourne Minster William Harvey Druitt the son and James Druitt the younger nephew both of Bournemouth in the County of Southampton gentlemen the executors

1889
Druitt George
Personal Estate 4,213 9s 3d.
6th July administration of the personal estate of George Druitt late of Christchurch in the County of Southampton bachelor who died 12 June 1889 at Costabelle near Hyeres in France was granted at the Principal Registry to James Druitt of Christchurch gentleman the father and next of kin.

1891
Druitt Ann
Personal Estate 2,419 8s 8d.
14 July administration of the personal estate of Ann Druitt late of Wimborne Minster in the county of Dorset widow who died 15 December 1890 at Chiswick in the County of Middlesex was granted at the Principal Registry to William Harvey Druitt of Bournemouth in the County of Southampton gentleman the son and one of the next of kin.

1891
Druit Montague John
Personal Estate 2,600 2s 0d.
24 July administration of the personal estate of Montague John Druitt late of 9 Kings-Bench-Walk Temple in the City of London barrister at law a bachelor who was last seen alive on 3 December 1888 and was found drowned in the River Thames at Chiswick in the County of Middlesex on 31 December 1888 was granted at the Principal Registry to William Harvey Druitt of Bournemouth in the County of Southampton gentleman the brother.

Perhaps you could try and find any other later references to Druitt's Will on The Times website

Best Regards
John Savage
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3581
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks very much, John. I've been looking, but nothing so far.

Robert
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage

Post Number: 284
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert,

Just thinking about this term "Druitt's Will Trusts".

If someone sets up a trust in their will it would usually be a way of ensuring that a particular person or persons would receive a legacy, but would not have control of it themselves (ie for children under the age of majority). It could also, perhaps, be used for someone who was of unsound mind.

Ann Druitt was sent to the Brooke Asylum in July 1888 and certified insane. Could it be that William Harvey Druitt was making some sort of legal provision that would ensure Ann was looked after, but not have direct control of her estate?

Just a thought.

Regards
John Savage
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 304
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 6:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear John and Robert,
I know threads on this site have a habit of fraying - or more accurately- morphing into some other sub-topic..poor old Diogenes who sounds like an Ancient Greek version of Richard Whittington-Egan, has been left sitting silently in his tub-dwelling, examining his own thread(s)
whilst we all jump on a Number ten bus and head off to the Probate office!
Anyway,I think Jeff Bloomfield adequately answered the initial enquiry for CB, so I think John Savages transcribing of Montague Druitt's
Probate Calendar entry provides us with the important detail that- at least Montague's brother William- claims MJD was missed on the 3rd December 1888.
I am not sure if the listing of his address at 9KBW was consistent with MJD having vacated his Eliot Place school accommodation, or more likely
reveals that MJD preferred to give his business address after "leaving" the school.So that is inconclusive. But the date is important, I think.
Well sleuthed, both of you!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3583
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi John and John

Yes, the idea of a trust fund for Mrs Druitt sounds very possible. And the date of 3rd December is an extra piece of evidence (we can do with all we can get in the case of Druitt!)

Interesting that the two wills came though ten days apart. I don't know how these things work, but could there have been a bit of juggling going on here? E.g. Monty dies, and his will leaves some money to his mother. William is in the process of setting up a trust, so defers the handling of Monty's will until the trust is set up. But then Ann dies. At the time of her death, would her trust have included the money from Monty, or would that only be passed into her trust once Monty's will had been proved? I'm getting confused here, but I'm just wondering if for some reason William deliberately left Monty's will until their mother's will was out of the way.

Still, I don't see why it should take so long to open a trust. And i don't know whether Monty left anything to his mother.

I think I'll have to try and get hold of a copy of Monty's will.

Robert
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage

Post Number: 285
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi John Ruffels,

Yes we do seem to have strayed from the original topic, however I'm sure that there is no harm done, as dodgy knees looks to me like a red herring.
Iam glad you found something of interest in the details from the National Probate Calendars, I was interested to see the amount left by Monty, 2,600 pounds would have been a considerable sum, and I feel that this is more evidence to suggest that his practice was more succesful than some authors would have us beleive.

Robert
It is difficult to speculate why it took so long to prove Monty's will, it may simply have been that he died without leaving a will, or there may have been other complications. I have never seen a copy of his will in any of the books, so if you decide to obtain it we may get a clue from the contents as to what went on.

Best Regards
John Savage
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 541
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As I understand it neither Anne nor Montague left a will, but administration of both estates was granted to William. I presume that the belated grant of letters of administration for MJD's estate was granted as a consequence of his mother's death. I don't think this sort of "tidying-up" operation was uncommon.

Chris Phillips

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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 512
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

The following crosses my mind:

1) Ann's will mentions a large bequest for Montague (after all, he did not get much - due to the payment made to his education - in his father's will).

2) Monty, being a barrister, did make a will in a timely fashion - but it lists Ann as a legatee.

3) Monty and Ann both have some comment in their will that refers to a third party, which (for the sake of family honor and respect) has to be handled carefully by William. Just imagine if there is a reference in Monty's will that if he predeceases Ann, his estate will go to the family of Annie Chapman or Mary Kelly or perhaps a witness. It's a stretch, but it might occur.

Jeff
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 305
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 5:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello All,
Yes Jeffrey....it is important to think laterally and even chuck the whole frame away..but, I won't hold my breathe for your last scenario.

Chris Phillips, John S and Robert Charles L.,

I think we should create a new thread about Montague John Druitt's Will and Administration of his Estate, because I have a hunch more will come out about (as Robert says), the hard-to-find Druitt clues.
Would you like to start us off Robert?
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3592
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK John.

My apologies to the Diogenes clubbers if I sidetracked their thread. I will now leave them in peace and, as Hamlet would say, the rest is silence.

Robert
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CB
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

Thanks for your responce. I believe that Druitt may have been involved with some sort of political group that had Irish sympathies. If Douglaus Browne was correct and Macnaughten identified the ripper with the leader of a plot to assasinate Mr.Belfour and we know that Macnaughten favord druitt as the killer. Then either Druitt was a member of such a group or at least associated with someone who was.

Does

Your friend,CB

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