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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 360
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 7:34 am: |       |
I looked at the picture listed in the link. It is difficult to tell if there is a shadow or a person behind the lady. I am distressed with the overall theme of the sketch because I believe that the purpose is humiliation. First of all the lady is named "Poveretta" indicating powerlessness. The whole picture screams vulnerability. She is dehumanized and degraded. You may say that that is too subjective, but that is what art is about, being subjective.
Having said that, I dont think you can make Sickert the Ripper based on this sketch. I dont like what it seems to suggest about his attitude toward women. But being a misogynist is not enough by itself. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2339
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 8:19 am: | |
True, true, Diana.
I agree with your interpretation of the picture and as you say, a case can't be built solely on elements like these -- especially not when they are open to subjective reading.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1108
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Hi Glenn and Diana
In case anyone is wondering the Sickert sketch is at
"Poveretta"
I would have to agree that there does appear to be a man standing behind "Poveretta." Presumably the artist meant to show male physical and sexual dominance over the woman. I would agree that this is no indication that Sickert was the Ripper but the sketch is on the disturbing side, intentionally so, I should say on the artist's part.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 375
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 2:44 pm: | |
Are you guys looking at the small version or the large version?
I could see how someone could think there was a person there behind her in the small version if the idea was already planted into one's head, but the bigger one is clearer.
In the large version all I see is sketchy line work and shading and nothing whatsoever to indicate a man hiding behind her, misogyny or anything like that... it's a nude with rough lines.
"Poveretta" doesn't quite mean "powerlessness" as much as it means pauper or, like it sounds, someone in poverty. That's a reasonable term for a prostitute, as many of the nudes were meant to be based upon who he had modelling for them. He also used the word in the title of an earlier painting, which, while also conveying powerlessness in a way, can't be seen as misogynistic.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 3:05 pm: | |
Hi Dan
I've looked at both the large and small versions of the sketch. To me, it looks as if there is another figure, in dark shading, behind the female nude, behind and to the left of the nude as we look straight ahead at the sketch, and the person appears to me to be a male. I agree that the conclusion is not definite but there is the curve of a head and marks that seem to show hair (or baldness), sketched in with strokes not unlike those done to indicate hair on the female, and others that seem to indicate an ear. Dan, are you ready to drive over with the white coat and the van now, or what? 
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 70
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 9:19 pm: | |
Guys,
I can't see a figure behind the woman in this sketch.. just looks like dark shading, or shadow, perhaps... I do know that I need to get glasses (just putting it off, you understand)
Bestest,
Lyn |
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 123
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 8:48 am: | |
At best I can see a figure that seems to be leaning over the woman's right shoulder with its chin on her shoulder fairly plastered to the contours of her body (the shadowing). I don't know if I would have seen this, however, if it hadn't already been suggested.
Let's remember that Sickert was an artist and it was his job to make us look closely and to do more than give us a photographic representation of reality. That may be the deliberate suggestion of Man (all the Johns who have opressed her) or even the Spector of Poverty or some such clinging to her like a shadow.Or of course it might just be a shadow.
I have no doubt that Sickert was a-sorry!- sick bastard with a macabre sense of humor and a deep interest in this case and probably all crime cases,which he indulged in his work. If he knew that we would be searching for clues he'd proably get a big charge out of it.
Mags |
Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 72
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
Hi all,
I can still only see shadowing in this picture..
Somebody please point out to me exactly how I can see a figure.. (maybe if I do that cross-eyed thing..like you have to with 3D pics)
I want to see what the rest of you see!
Lyn |
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 5:23 pm: | |
Lyn-
If you look at the pencil marks to the woman's right-- just about in line with her eyes is a C shaped thing that could be the man's right ear. Above that is the suggestion of hair- sort of short and smoothed down with a part on his right.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Mags |
Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 7:27 pm: | |
Mags,
I still just see pencil shading...
I guess I'm just a no-hoper here!
Bestest,
Lyn
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Tommy Nilsson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 8:30 am: | |
Hi Diana!
You are right, it is about humiliation. You can be sure that there is a man behind her, his right hand/fingers on her right shoulder, pointing at her mouth or neck, or both?
There is nearly always a lot of hidden information in Sickerts work pointing towards different kinds of humiliation of women. This is only one of them.
Regards, Tommy |
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