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Message |
    
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 631
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 12:26 pm: | 
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At the risk of stirring up the pot of the anti-grave visiting members again, could we perhaps gather some information on the burial places of principle Ripper suspects?
We have some information on Druitt's burial place at Wimbourne on his thread. I also recall seeing Gull's grave (not that he is a viable suspect IMHO) in a documentary, but I don't remember where the grave is. Tumblety is buried in the US.
Anyone know where the others are buried?
Andy S.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3494
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 1:46 pm: |
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Hi Andy
Andy and Sue Parlour are the people to ask about Gull's grave!
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 1:57 pm: |
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Roslyn D'Onston Stephenson died and was buried in Islington in 1916
Chris |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 2:08 pm: |
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Hello Robert,
Thanks for plug! We also were the first to publish pictures of James Kenneth Stephen and the Stephen family's graves.
Also John McCarthy & family. Although not a suspect. But can he be ruled out? You never know.
A&S
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 633
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 2:56 pm: |
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If possible, could we give names of cemeteries? Thanks, folks.
I'm hopeful of making a UK trip this Spring. However, it's always difficult for me to travel beyond Greater London. Perhaps someone could post photos for those who can't make it in person.
Andy S.
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 277
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 4:45 pm: |
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Hi Andrew,
I beleive that Sir William Gull's grave is at Thorpe-le-Soken, Essex.
Regards
John Savage |
Dark_Intent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 6:47 pm: |
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Sir William Gull's grave (at Thorpe-le-Soken) is covered very fully in Stephen Knight's book 'The Final Solution' although ignore the unfounded speculation Knight indulges in.
I understood that McCarthy is buried very close to Mary Kelly (although I haven't been there).
Just posted a photo of Sickert's grave (and that of his third wife Therese Lessore) under 'Suspects, Sickert'.
DT |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 634
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:50 am: |
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Thanks, DT. Next time I am in London I shall have a look at St. Patrick's for McCarthy's grave.
Andy S.
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Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 122
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 2:43 am: |
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Hi all,
I know it's fairly common knowlege these days, but Francis Tumblety is buried in Rochester, New York, under the name of 'Tumuelty.'
Now, I have a question to throw back at you all:
I know that during some of the 1900's atleast, people that were hung were cremated and had their ashes thrown away, so there would be no lasting memorial of them, but I'm not sure if this was the same deal in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
If they were cremated then too, then there would be no grave of suspects like Klosowski, Bury, Deeming, Cream, etc - the suspects that were hanged. But if it was not the case, then I would imagine their graves would be in the area of where they were hanged. Does anyone know anything about this?
Frederick Bailey Deeming was hanged at the Old Melbourne Gaol in May 1892, here in Australia. I've been in there, I've seen Deeming's cell, it's open to the public, and I don't recall reading anything about his grave either. But maybe I just missed it.
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Kyle Warren
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 10:55 am: |
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I just want to ask a simple question? Why? What does locating the sights of suspects graves proove and how can that help solve the case? |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 322
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 7:43 pm: |
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Hi Adam,
During the 1880's cremation was still in its infancy in England, the first crematorium in London was built at Golders Green about 1902. I beleive at the time it was common for people who were hung to be buried within the prison walls in unmarked graves.
Hope this helps.
Regards
John Savage |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 746
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 10:43 am: |
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Kyle,
If you're still with us, I'll be glad to answer your question (which I have just noticed).
Locating and viewing the suspects' graves will not help us solve the case. I never implied that it would. However, these message boards are not restricted to comments regarding the solving of the case. Any comment or question relating to the case may be posted here.
As to why I asked about suspects' graves, I simply find it interesting to visit the graves of important historical figures. This is an interest that many others share with me and indeed one can find books and websites listing burial places of famous figures. If you do not share this interest with me, that is certainly your right.
Why do I find the graves so interesting? The best way I can describe it is that this is the closest I can come to a historical person. For example, I often make it a point to visit the tomb of Abraham Lincoln when passing through Springfield, IL (which is 90 miles from me and on my often-traveled route to Chicago) if I have time. There is no more rational explanation than that.
Curiously, I don't bother visiting the graves of those whom I knew while they were alive. I almost never visit the graves of my parents, for example. This is because I have memories of them and these provide greater satisfaction than visiting their grave sites. But for those I never knew....
Andy S.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2228
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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Hi
Having done way to many visits to St Patricks of late I must say that there are many Mc Carthys there. A John and Eliza etc etc also a tantalising Emma Smith(Hmmmm!) Mc Carthy is a very common name though and to hope that if this was the man etc would be wishful thinking I think!! I did take some pix though and will look them up and dates etc but think that these are many of many here
Andy
The graves of my parents are maybe about 40 mins away and I also dont visit.ok I may feel the odd pang but I prefer as you say to remember them as they were
The smae oddly isnt true for Mary......there is something about that small grave and I love the way last time I was there she'd entangled the boy next door with some flowers.lovely
Suzix
Suzi x |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 284
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Andy and all...
As Chris Scott stated,Stephenson is buried in Islington Cemetery...On my profile,I have added a picture of the front gate of this location.
Whats eerie is that Stephenson is buried 11 [ eleven ] feet underground and beneath another body !
How Brown
JTRForums
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1363
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
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Hi Suzi,
Out of all the graves of the victims i have visited, i always feel more sensative when i stand next to kellys grave, it represents the alleged five victims[ possible six] that fell to the killers madness, and i have always felt the murders were because of her, through the killers own mental obsessions.
There is no doubt [ in at least my mind] that the whole ripper saga involved Mjk, And her killer ceased his murderous ways after her death.
Richard. |
Rodney Gillis
Sergeant
Username: Srod
Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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Hi Richard,
I couldn't agree with you more. I too have always believed that the killer was known by Mjk and she has the key to unlock everything.
I have not had the opportunity to travel to England but I hope to visit the graves of the victims when I do get the chance.
Anyone know where Hutchinson is buried?
In the meantime, for those going to Baltimore in 2006, make sure you visit the sight of Poe. He is buried within a half hour of the hotel.
Rod |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 751
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 1:21 am: |
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Isn't John Wilkes Booth also buried in Baltimore? I am going to try to make the conference next year.
Andy S.
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 226
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 4:08 am: |
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Executed condemned prisoners were buried within the prison walls. Lincoln Castle (Lincolnshire UK) was used as a prison in the mid C19th and prisoners were buried in the old Norman shell keep - the Lucy Tower.
You can visit it today, along with parts of the old prison (including the fascinating chapel) which used a solitary confinement principle.
The Lucy Tower, the open roof spanned by the branches of a great tree, is a moody, and chilling place still. the headstones (about a foot square) each has just initials and a date of execution.
Phil |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
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Hi Andrew
Yes John Wilkes Booth is buried in Baltimore, in the family plot in Green Mount Cemetery, and here is a view of the grave monument.
Edgar Allan Poe died here in October 1849 -- the hospital where he died, Washington Medical College, later Church Home and Hospital, on Broadway, is now being incorporated into a new building for Johns Hopkins Hospital, I believe.
Poe's 1875 marble grave is in the old Westminster Cemetery at Greene and Fayette Streets and I show a photograph of it below. I can't speak for the alleged picture of Poe in his casket that I recently found on the web, it looks fake to me, and I had never heard there was such a photograph although I have been studying EAP and his death for some years.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Rodney Gillis
Sergeant
Username: Srod
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 9:09 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
I have seen that photo of Poe and have always assumed it was a simulation. The person in the picture looks far too young.
As for Booth and the Greenmount Cemetery, I used to work as a delivery driver in that part of the city and I (no pun intended) would not be caught dead there.
Rod |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 273
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:43 pm: |
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"Whats eerie is that Stephenson is buried 11 [ eleven ] feet underground and beneath another body !"
That sounds a tad odd, Howard. What's the story behind that? Besides the obvious desire to keep him from rising from the grave, that is.
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1382
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 2:22 am: |
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Hi Howard and Sir Robert
I am not sure that the funeral arrangements of Robert D'Onston Stephenson (Roslyn D'Onston) are as odd as they might at first sound. I think due to the cramped conditions in cemeteries, it was probably pretty standard to stack one body on top of another. Below is a photograph of a sombre looking Chris George in the catacombs of Paris--certainly a major example of remains being stacked. And you'd look sombre too if you had to trek all those miles through those tunnels!!!
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 756
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:49 am: |
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If Poe died in 1849 there is no way this is an authentic photo of him in his casket. Photography in 1849 was still pretty much in its infancy and any surviving photo from that time would be of quite a lesser quality.
Switching to a subject somewhat less macabre, Babe Ruth's birthplace should also be in Baltimore. Isn't it near Camden Yards? (The Babe is buried in New York).
Andy S.
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1384
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
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Hi Andrew
Yes, indeed, Babe Ruth's birthplace is a few streets west of Camden Yards at 216 Emory Street. His father kept a saloon that stood on the site of the present ballyard. I believe some part of St. Mary’s Industrial School for Boys, a reformatory and orphanage in which the Babe was placed is still standing as well in West Baltimore, incorporated into Cardinal Gibbons High School.
I agree with you that the alleged photo of Poe in his coffin appears tricked up, the image of a younger man, either a corpse or an actor, simply placed in an old-looking frame to make it appear like a period photograph. I am not sure though about the quality of the photograph being much less in 1849 as I have seen a number of good, sharp looking photographs from that period, including ones of Poe, John Quincy Adams (who died in 1850), etc.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 591
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
John Quincy Adams died close to 1850, but it was 1848. He suffered a stroke while seated in the House of Representatives (where he was a Congressman from Massachusetts). In fact, if you tour the Capitol Building in Washington, the spot he was at when stricken is marked by a brass marker.
Actually every U.S. President from J.Q.Adams has been photographed (though he, Jackson, and Van Buren were photographed after their Presidencies. William Henry Harrison was photographed before his brief Presidency, and John Tyler was photographed probably after his Presidency. I think the first one whose picture was taken while in the White House is Polk. In at least one, his leading social friend Dolley Madison appears (but Dolley had the habit of moving just before her picture was taken, so her head is always out of focus.
The first President whose photo in a coffin is known to exist is that of Abraham Lincoln. It is a shot showing his head at an angle. There are about a dozen other pictures supposedly of Lincoln in his coffin besides this one, but this is the only one that looks legitimate.
Swiching topics a bit, when that monument to Poe was dedicated in 1875 only one poet attended the event: Walt Whitman.
John Wilkes Booth's body is in the Booth Memorial plot, but it's location is not marked.
The family got the remains back in 1869.
Where, by the way, is H.L.Mencken's body laid to rest?
Re: The burial of hanged criminals.
Naturally it varies from one country or jurisdiction to another. The notorious wife poisoner, Carlyle Harris, was hanged in 1893 for killing his wife Helen Potts two years earlier. He is buried in the family gravesite in Albany. I believe the cemetery happens to be the same one that is the last resting place for President Chester Alan Arthur.
Chester Gillette (the original for the killer Clyde Griffiths in Dreiser's "An American Tragedy") is also in a regular cemetery in upstate New York. I refer you to that interesting website, "Find-a-grave", which also gives the sites for Mary Kelly, Annie Chapman, and one or two other Ripper victims.
Jesse James is buried in a family grave in Missouri, I believe. I don't know where "that dirty, little coward", Mr. Bob Ford is buried.
I have one interesting story. Dr. Crippen was hanged at Pentonville prison in 1910, and six years later Sir Roger Casement was hanged there. Both men were buried in a small cemetery for executed felons on the prison's grounds. Casement's remains were eventually returned to the Republic of Eire around 1960 as a good will gesture. They are in an imposing tomb there. However, an English friend of mine has suggested that they dug up the wrong remains and sent the Irish Crippen's not Casement's. My friend may have been joking about that.
Another poisoner, Dr. Edward William Pritchard, was buried on the precincts of Judiciary Building of Glasgow, Scotland in July 1865. In 1910 this building was torn down and Pritchard's body dug up (with several others). An article on the condition of his skull by a Dr. George H. Edington appeared int he Glasgow Medical Journal in February 1912 (I get this site from an essay, "Poison in the Pantry" by William Roughead, in his book "Malice Domestic" (Edinburgh, W.Green & Sons, 1928)). His boots were found to be in a good state of preservation.
Somebody eventually stole the boots and sold them!
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 286
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:38 pm: |
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Sir Rob...
When Ivor and Tyler went to Islington,they were told [ or Ivor was..] that the owner of the plot allowed RDS to be interred there. Since RDS died first,he went first into the ground..
Not to sound morbid....but a corpse buried that far down may be preserved more than one closer to the surface,wouldn't you think?
Does anyone know? Not that I am gonna go dig him up. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 274
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:01 pm: |
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Hey Howie - what was the relationship between the owner of the plot and RDS?
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 288
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 8:54 am: |
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Senor Roberto....
People from the poor house or those with no money or without any living relations who couldn't pay for a grave on their behalf were buried in what is known as paupers graves. D'onston wasn't buried in a paupers grave. His friend William Taylor bought a private plot for his friends...one being D'onston. As D'onston was the first to pass away he was interred first at 11 feet. Then the second person, Alex Sinton, died in 1927 and he was then placed in the grave at 9ft....right on top of RDS.
People are still digging [ no pun intended ] into finding out more about the relationship between Taylor and RDS...
Question....If Sinton was pushing up daisies...what was D'onston pushing up ?
I almost forgot....Thanks very much Chris for the mention of Poe.
Poe wrote a story, "MORNING ON THE WISSAHICCON" which is about my neighborhood and in fact,my back yard,so to speak. I live on the edge of Fairmount Park [ Phila.] the world's biggest municipal park. Poe describes the Wissahickon Creek, as it is called now, based upon a visit to the area 165 years ago....it hasn't changed that much yet...this story is a departure from the macabre.
(Message edited by howard on March 25, 2005) |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1394
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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Hi Jeff, Howard, et al.
Jeff, thanks for your clarification about John Quincy Adams's death and photograph, and also the interesting information you told about presidential photography generally. 
Jeff, H. L. Mencken is buried at Loudon Park Cemetery, 3801 Frederick Avenue, Baltimore, MD. If you look at the following URL, you will find a number of other interesting locales associated with Mencken, the Sage of Baltimore-- Mencken Localities.
Howard, I have been a student of the mystery of Poe's death for a number of years and one of the bits of information is that when he was passing through Philadelphia shortly before his death he told publisher John Sartain a wild tale about two men who were following him on the train. He told of being thrown in Moyamensing Prison and asked Sartain to cut off his moustache so no one could recognize him. There's more about this episode on this on a webpage about John Sartain.
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on March 25, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 276
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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"If Sinton was pushing up daisies... what was D'onston pushing up ?"
A very obscene and very outre image comes to mind...
I did visit H.P. Lovecraft's grave a few days ago (daughter's college tour) and I'm sure he could have written something appropriate. Or inappropriate as the case may be.
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 592
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 11:10 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
While you were so interested in the Poe's demise, have you read John Evangelist Walsh's account of Poe's last days. If not I recommend it. He tends to believe that Poe was not lying about those two men who were chasing him from his train. They may have been the brothers of a woman in Richmond that Poe may have planned to marry for financial reasons.
Jeff |
