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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1239
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 1:35 pm: | 
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I have long been vexed by uncle Charles’ - Executive Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbush - hatred for all things Catholic and now do believe I might have found the connection… and also why our dear little Tom-Tom was named ‘Thomas Hayne Cutbush’ for I reckon he was supposed to be the red rag to the Catholic bulls in the Home Office and Scotland Yard.
There is something in a name.
Enjoy a little known piece of extremist anti-Catholicism:
Preterist Eschatology in the Sixteenth Through Eighteenth Centuries
With Afterword By Melvig.org
By Timothy James
Preterist Eschatology in the 16th - 18th Centuries | Rejection of the Non-Occurrence Theory |
Around 1520, Luther had discovered the 'true' identity of the 'Antichrist and his damnation', namely, Papal Rome as the end-time fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. On February 24, 1520, Luther wrote a letter to a friend Spalatin stating,
"I am practically cornered, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist, whom the world expects according to a general belief, because everything so excactly corresponds to the way of life, action, words, and commandments." (Luther, Schriften, vol. 21a, col. 234; translated in Waddington's 'History of the Reformation', vol. 1)
During this time of change there arose a small group of scholars who were caught in the middle of this twofold tension, the Preterists. They held vigorously to the first principle of a literal, historical sense of Biblical interpretation and entered into conflict with the Catholic Church because of their stance. Yet, they also disagreed with the Protestants on the identity of the Catholic Church as the "Antichrist" and were considered the worst of traitors and "papist compromisers" for advocating a different interpretation.
The Preterist scholars contended that the primary message of the NT prophecies were directed to the peoples contemporary with its writing and not sixteen centuries later. Christ himself taught that "This generation" to whom he was presently speaking "would not pass till all be fulfilled." Lk. 21:32. In the same manner, Revelation opens and closes with the express purpose that it must "shew unto his servants what things must shortly come to pass." Rev. 1:1; 22:6,10,12,20
The Preterist acknowledged that an application by principal could be made that the Pope was antichristian on a grand scale, yet clearly not the Antichrist of Biblical prophecy. Most Preterists understood the true Antichrist to have been either Nero or the Hebraic personification of the Jewish leadership before A.D. 70.
Likewise, the identity of the Great Harlot was seen by some preterists to be pagan Rome, yet many saw Rev. 11:8 as an indisputable proof that it had to be apostate Jerusalem, "the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified." See also Rev. 17:18 and 18:24. The preterist view was not popular among the early Reformers, since it didn't provide the ammunition they needed against the Catholics.
Catholic Preterists
A Spanish Jesuit of Seville named, Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) invested forty years of his life to this study which culminated in his 900 page commentary, "Vestigatio Arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi (Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse). In this work which was published posthumously in 1614, Alcazar made a new attempt irrespective of both Catholic and Protestant views to interpret the Apocalypse through the use of critical-historical methods. He concluded that the Apocalypse describes the two-fold war of the Church in the first century; one with the Jewish synagogue, and the other with paganism, which resulted in victory over both adversaries. Frrom makes an intersting note regarding Alcazar:
Alcazar was fully aware that he contradicted certain of the fathers, differed from the Futurists Ribera and Viegas, and was in conflict with Malvenda. While approving of the concept of spiritual resurrection held by Augustine, he contended against his view of the binding of Satan, as well as that of Ribera and Viegas. (Froom, LeRoy Edwin. The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers, 3 vols. (Wash. D.C.: Review and Herald, 1948), vol 2, p.509)
Within the Catholic tradition, the only other scholar of note was Bossuet, bishop of Meaux. Bossuet saw the Preterist position more as a new weapon to antagonize the Protestants with than a discovery of new truths forgotten as Alcazar did. Educated in the Jesuit tradition, Bossuet (1627-1704) held that since pagan Rome and Judaism had long since fulfilled the predictions, the Protestants were besieging the New Jerusalem. (Froom, Prophetic Faith, vol. 2, p.636). Bossuet sadly lacked the insight to see that the first century fulfilments were divine examples to all ages of any system that raises itself above God's truth; whether Protestant or Catholic.
Protestant Preterists
Hugo Grotius, or van Groot, (1583-1645) is credited as being the first scholar to openly adopt the Preterist view.... Grotius' avowed aim was to bring peace out of the horrible conflict between the Catholics and Protestants which was devastating Europe (it was the time of the Thirty Years' War), and he used his diplomacy to that end while serving as the Sweedish ambassador to Paris. His at first anonymous "Commentatio ad Loca Quae de Antichristo Argunt (1640) (Commentary on Certain Texts Which Deal with Antichrist) sought to remove the great prophetic stumbling-block to reunion. Yet when Grotius' authorship of the book was detected, it turned "orthodox" theologians against him. Therefore, in 1644 Grotius came out with his last great work, Anotationes, by which he applied the historical-philogical methods from a Preterist perspective.
Another important scholar during this period was Henry Hammond (1605-1660). Not only is he the first English Protestant Preterist, but has also been called the "Father of English Biblical Criticism". Hammond was a royal chaplain of Charles I and wrote fifty-eight works, his Paraphrase and Annotations (1653) being the best known. In this work, Hammond contended for the Preterist view and was the first English cleric to visibly take a preterist stance.
Prior to Hammond's Paraphrase, similar ideas could be found in the English schoolmaster, Thomas Hayne's (Hayne, Thomas, Christs Kingdom on Earth, (1645).) writings. In 1645, Hayne wrote that Daniel's prophecies had been entirely fulfilled in the history of Israel up through the time of Christ. Joseph Hall (Hall, Joseph, The Revelation Unrevealed, (1650).) concurred, yet noticeably declined to make any similar pronouncement concerning the Revelation of John (1650). Needless to say, these were days of intense revolution regarding the intellectuals and commons alike.
The years 1640-60 witnessed the most complete and drastic revolution which the Church of England has ever undergone. Its whole structure was ruthlessly demolished. . . so wrote William Shaw (Shaw, William A., A History of the English Church during the Civil Wars and under the Commonwealth, Vol. 2, 1900.). In the place of Anglican government under Charles I, the divided reformers provided "a shadowy form of Presbyterianism" with the Directory of Public Worship. During this time Hammond was given a living at Penshurst, Kent, and was a frequent preacher at Paul's Cross. In 1643 he was made archdeacon of Chichester and member of the Westminster Assembly, yet never sat with them. In 1645 he was made canon of Christ Church, and it was through this period that he realized the theological inconsistency of those coming into power and wrote his Paraphrase (1653). |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2820
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 2:00 pm: |
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Hi AP
I thought he was called Thomas after his father and Hayne after his mother's maiden name, or after his maternal grandfather's surname.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1241
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 3:33 pm: |
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Quite right Robert.
I was just intrigued to find a Catholic hating Thomas Hayne 200 years before the events - a very famous one at that - and then my imagination conspired with my brandy to make me see double.
I suppose the rub is that Thomas Hayne could be Thomas Hayne, well wearing his genes at least, and that the family found it fun to name the bastard son of an ill-gotten union with the name of a misbegotten Catholic hating schoolteacher from two hundred years before who thought the Pope was the Antichrist and that the Great Jezebel was amongst us now, well in 1880 anyway.
If nobody else likes this tale I just know uncle Charles would.
All his dreams come true really.
Scuse my wild imagination, Robert, it is the blessed pop that does it.
Lord Grimthorpe would have enjoyed the situation.
But yes, you are right, the logical explanation is as you propose.
I shall continue to explore the illogical as it amuses me greatly. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2822
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 4:28 pm: |
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Hi AP
You could try and argue it the other way round - Catholic-hating Uncle Charles notices the name coincidence and starts thinking symbolically. Barnardo would have clued him up with the theology.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 437
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 9:12 pm: |
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Hi A.P.
I found a fascinating discovery - and it does have some logic to it. I only have two questions.
1) How did you happen to come across the religious writer Thomas Hayne? Are you interested in theological discussions or history?
2) What is the brand of brandy? It seems to stimulate one's thought processes.
Actually, given the anti-Catholic sentiments of Thomas Cutbush's uncle, this name connection sounds very plausible. It is not unusual for people to be named for famous individuals. Diamond Jim Brady was born on election eve (I think) in 1856. His father, a good Democrat, named him for the newly elected President, JAMES BUCHANAN Brady. And 16 years later, in Vermont, the parents of our 30th President named him(originally) JOHN CALVIN Coolidge.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 4:15 pm: |
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Yes Jeff
I follow all historical and theological discussion with an abiding interest and a glass of Safeway's Spanish Brandy in my hand.
The 'Preterist Eschatology' is much like crack cocaine, once you get a sniff you want to buy the whole shipment.
Just like you I find it plausible, although almost downright impossible, and still cling to a stubborn belief that an anti-Catholic attitude does play a role in the case of JtR - be it that might be on the part of the investigating officers or the killer's family.
Stuff I am tinkering with now shows me that said Thomas Hayne, religious writer, possibly even had connections to devil-worshipping cults of that time period; and certainly the Hayne clan of America during the Colony years were anti-Catholic, anti-black, anti-Jew and just about anti-everything else that wasn't good English protestant stock.
Now cut to Lord Grimthorpe.
And Charles Henry Cutbush, and letters from Thomas Hayne Cutbush to Lord Grimthorpe.
Connections, connections.
Uncle Charles believed the Catholics were poisoning the drinking water of London,and he certainly believed that the Pope was the 'anti-Christ'.
All jokes aside, I think there is an awful lot of religious history involved here that we do yet understand.
The sooner we do the better. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1319
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 4:35 pm: |
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This little snippet from a prison record in the LVP does I think illustrate how and why Thomas Taylor Cutbush might have firstly deserted the family home and then found himself adrift in the colonies:
'On Monday last, a man and a woman from the workhouse in Bury were married with the view to emigrate to Australia, we understand several inmates have been accepted for free passage to the land of promise.' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2908
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 4:48 pm: |
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Hi AP
I can't help thinking that TTC jumped before he could have his collar felt. As far as I can see, he was set up very nicely here, as his wife's parents seem to have been fairly well off, and he at least had a job. Why go to New Zealand and get hitched again?
Maybe it had something to do with that 1867 court case "R v Cutbush and another".
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1322
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 6:35 pm: |
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Robert
this may well link to the court case you discuss, as this 'down-under' poster does use the term 'for years' in his post about this legal battle over properties in whitechapel:
'John Thomas Haynes was the son of Thomas Haynes a silk merchant - i think. He was sent in chains to Tasmania 1822, possibly leaving behind a wife Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte. He was highly educated, literate and a bit of scoundrel. Think he fiddled some books, but not sure. Anyway, he died in a shipwreck 1844, and his wife fought off a legal claim by the London Haynes for his property for years. Mile End, Spitalfields are mentioned. I have most of the Haynes story on a website and if you think he might be yours I would be more than happy if you downloaded what I have. Other family ties in UK appears to be BIRD Sadly JT Haynes, a suspected smuggler died in a shipwreck 1844, and while not actually 'his' son, Charles Haynes, his step-son continued the family name in South Australia. The Haynes were publicans, JT was a whaler, a sealer and a business man with hotels. He was part of the colour of Port Adelaide and sadly there does not appear to be any family left in Australia at all. The grandchildren did not produce offspring and the grand daughter, Cecelia who went to USA, produced family who are not interested. Her husband was Alfed B. Davis, I think he was a Londoner too, son of a solicitor maybe. It is there if you want it. www.geocities.com/courtoy2001 '
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2924
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/overview/microchip/names2c31.html
Thomas Hayne Cutbush - what's in the sky?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 1:50 pm: |
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'Ground control to Major Tom...'
Or rather Uncle Charles.
Nice little find, Robert.
Must see if I can't better that.
Perhaps TTC threw a message in a bottle off his transport ship and it landed in Papua New Guinea and started the 'Cargo Cult'? |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 463
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 8:30 pm: |
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Hi A.P.
I'll have to try Safeway's Spanish Brandy then.
I wonder, given the Haynes' family's anti-black
sentiments, is it possible that the American
side of the family includes Senator Robert Haynes of South Carolina, an able lieutenant of then Vice
President John C. Calhoun, and supporter of the latter's theory of nullification. Haynes was the
individual who debated Senator Daniel Webster in the famous debates over nullification that led to Webster's final famous outburst: "Liberty and Union, one and inseperable, now and forever!"
Jeff |
Marianne Hobby
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
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Hi all,
My husband's mother is a Cutbush (by birth) and I have been doing a lot of work on the family tree for her and the possible connection to the Thomas Cutbush branch.
The genealogy sites are wonderful but.....
taking the information from hand written census sheets means that there are loads of mis-spellings.One must look under not only Cutbush but Catbash,Catbush and Culbush.
I found Thomas Taylor under Culbush in the 1861 census.
Rightly, Thomas Taylor was named after his mother as Thomas Hayne was named after his mother.
Supt.Charles Cutbush's mother Amelia is listed in 1861 under Catbash! If you look at the original census form it has been quite clearly mis-copied.
I am suspicious that Thomas Taylor Cutbush and Kate Hayne were not actually married ? Kate Hayne still calls herself Hayne in the 1871 census and a Kate Hayne is listed in the Civil Registration Index 1837-1983 as marrying in 1878 to either John Ridgewell or John Thomas Twigg ?
According to others, Thomas Taylor was in Australia by 1867 when young Thomas Hayne would have been 1 year old.Kate did call
herself "Cutbush" on the 1881 census ?
Well, back to the web sites for more checking. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4697
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
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Hi Marianne
I assure you that TTC and Kate were married. I have a copy of their marriage certificate.
Good luck with your Cutbush research.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:11 am: |
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Hi Marianne
other versions you can try in your search which turn up Cutbushes are Outbush and Cutbrush
Happy hunting!
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4700
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:58 am: |
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Hi Debra
I think there were also a Cathcart, a Cutbirth, and even a Cusburby! I think one of the Cutbushes was listed as Whitechapel, Mexico!
Trying to outwit the Ancestry transcribers is half the fun.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 63
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 9:12 am: |
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...in fact Robert they appear as everything and anything except Cutbush! |
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