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David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 42
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 1:11 pm: |       |
Ok. Lets see how far we can go with this idea.
Monty is not only Eddys double, but, it is actually Eddy who is found drowned in the Thames, having been murdered, by a rent-boy, at 'The Osiers'. Monty assumes Eddys identity but his cover is blown on the eve of his wedding to May. His death is faked and he is shipped quietly off to Glamis castle where he is kept in confinement for the rest of his life.
I dont believe a word of it but could it just be?
Regards
David |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
Hi David...well erm..stranger things have happened?
Did Dr Stowell see something in Gull"s papers that convinced him that Gull or Prince Albert Victor was the ripper[see Paul Begg-The Definitive History].If he did what could he have seen?What was it he refers to having discussed with Caroline Acland Gull"s Daughter?
Is there a kernel of truth in the "cover Up" stories and yes was Montague Druitt a convenient scapegoat?There is indeed a story that they all had one hell of a time at Osiers[and I think this is where the poet JK Stephens,tutor to PAV,comes in because he was one of the leaders of this little gay club and poetry/debauchery society .Trouble is no one can link Druitt with the group-with the Prince yes via Stephens but with Druitt?Still it seems old Monty was heading that way that fateful day-with his ticket[return]
Off the top of my head I could make a guess that after losing his job and fearful of losing his mind too the antics of this lot might just have gotten a bit much for him.Maybe he had been willing in the past to "double" for the Prince over one or two dubious ventures/romantic liaisons even but maybe when it came to doubling as the ripper this really took the biscuit!Or maybe not.Possibly he assisted with some medical knowledge gleaned from Daddy"s big medical books and also thought it a bit of a lark to visit Whitechapel and "have some fun" with such high ranking company-after all he did get invited to the same Ball[but for one reason or another didnt quite make it]-oh Dear think I"ve lost the plot somehow!But why on earth did Machnaghten pick out Druitt to point the finger at if there wasnt just a teeny weeny bit more to it?Was Machnaghten too
trying to deflect from who he knew/guessed to be the culprit and didnt dare say?
Its always looked to me like it was the Cutbush name that was being so fiercely protected -but maybe it wasnt maybe it was Prince Albert Victor.A thought[even if it seems so ridiculous.
Natalie
to Hammersmith. |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 43
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 4:03 pm: | |
The antics of the 'Oserierians' is of some personal interest to me. I was born in the building next door.
There doesn't appear to be anything, so far, to link Monty with either 'The Osiers' or the Prince, except for Montys body having been found a hundred, or so, yards from 'The Osiers' front door - but I guess that is what you might expect.
Check the thread on 'Montys last days'for an alternative suggestion.
On the 'double' question. What might have been the scenario had Monty made it to the ball?
Regards
David |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 6:28 pm: | |
Hi David.It sounds fascinating this.Few people seem to have heard of the Osierians.Seems a very likely place for Monty to have called in that day
[return ticket in pocket].He may or may not have moved in the same circles as these Oxbridge graduates but it looks as though he did what with theinvite to the Ball and his neighbours[some titled]in Kings Bench Walk.
I will go now to the thread you recommend
Best Natalie |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 10:13 pm: | |
Sorry about that I appear to have misdirected you.
The posting I mentioned doesn't appear to exist.
Regards
David |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 428
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 10:33 pm: | |
Hi Natalie and David,
I liked David's scenario, particularly exiling poor Monty to Glamis Castle. Perhaps he spent his remaining days solving that mystery.
It is almost as good as my "sample" conspiracy theory in which the key to the crimes was Elizabeth Stride being Swedish, and that it was all a plot to assassinate the King of Sweden when he was visiting London in 1888. I threw that one out on the old message board. I even got the attempted murder of the French novelist Jules Verne (in 1886, by an insane nephew who was a diplomat) into that theory.
The resemblance between Monty and Eddy is not a great one. They both have thin looking faces with heavily bagged eyes. Also their expressions look somewhat lost (in Eddy's case he looks positively vapid in a pompous way). But I can suggest another person who is worth looking into regarding resembling Monty.
Check out the now forgotten English Naturalistic short story writer, Hubert M. Crackethorpe. Crackenthorpe (who died in 1896, at a very young age), was a contributor to THE YELLOW BOOK and other fin-de-siec literary journals. He was an English disciple of Zola, and his stories dealt with lower class lives in the slums, many involving prostitutes.
In 1888, Hubert's father (a notable Victorian legal scholar) inherited a huge estate from a relative. However, to do this the family had to change it's name from "Cookson" to "Crackenthorpe". Since it was a matter of about 20,000 acres of estate in England, "Cookson" was replaced.
Hubert's brother Darryl was a career diplomat, and the family is continued through Darryl's descendants. You see, Hubert died prematurely in Paris in 1896. He drowned in the Seine River in November of that year. His marriage had failed, and there was a scandal involving him and Richard Le Gallienne's sister. Darryl Crackenthorpe handled the entire matter as quietly as possible, for the general belief was that Hubert committed suicide. However, it might have been an accident (heavy rains had swollen the Seine that year) and it could have been a robbery murder.
If you look at a photograph of Hubert Crackenthorpe, he looks like he could have been the younger brother of Monty Druitt. Oh, Hubert's middle name was "Montague".
I have tried to see if the Cookson family were connected to the Druitts, but I have never found any connection.
Darryl Crackenthorpe is interesting too. He married a young lady named Ena (or Ina) Sickles. Ena was the daughter of a notorious man - General Daniel Sickles, "hero" (?) of the battle of the Peach Orchard at Gettysburg in the American Civil War, U.S. Congressman in the Buchanan Administration (and later again in the second Cleveland Administration) from New York, a diplomat to Britain, U.S. Minister to Spain (1869 - 1873), and murderer of Philip Barton Key, the District Attorney of Washington, D.C. in 1859. Key (the son of Francis Scott Key, author of "The Star Spangled Banner")was having an affair with Sickles first wife, and somebody finally told Sickles. He shot Key down in Lafayette Square in broad daylight. Sickels (defended by Edwin M. Stanton, Lincoln's future Secretary of War) was acquitted - his trial set up the "unwritten" law about the right of a spouse (usually a husband) being allowed to kill an adulterer threatening his home.
Sickles career is a fascinating one of personal pluck, brains, and bravado that was frequently crooked and questionable, but never to be dismissed. His behavior at Gettysburg still is subject to debate (did he bungle things by getting into a bloody, meaningless fight in the Orchard, or did he pull valuable Confederate strength by his actions away from more critically important sites in the battle). His career in Spain was a comedy that almost ended in tragedy. He had an affair with the reigning monarch, Queen Isabella II (and Sickles became known as "The Yankee King of Spain"). In 1873 an incident involving the massacre of a ship of American fillibuster adventurers in Havana (they were plotting to overthrow the Spanish Government there) almost caused a war between the U.S. and Spain. Sickles was very belicose about it, apparently hoping to cause a war and use it to further his political hopes (he dreamed of being President). Secretary of State Hamilton Fish and the British Ambassador to Spain managed to calm things down, and settle the crisis with arbitration. Sickles resigned at one point (thinking his resignation would not be taken). Fish took it quickly, and replaced him with a more peaceful Minister. The British Ambassador was Sir Austin Henry Layard, who was related by marriage to Lord Wimborne and to Lord Randolph Churchill. Interesting how these little connections keep popping up.
Anyway, Sickles was quite notorious in 1897, and yet Darryl Crackenthorpe saw nothing odd in marrying Ena Sickles while he was trying to keep his own career in the British Foreign Office going. And this was after quickly covering up the odd, sudden death of his brother Hubert. I have never been able to understand that.
Darryl and Ena did marry, and remained so until her death in 1918. Darryl ended his career as British Ambassador to the Central American Republics.
Like so much else in the Whitechapel story and it's offshoots, more research is needed. There is only one book on Hubert Montague Crackenthorpe, by Daryl Crackenthorpe (the grandson of Hubert's brother). But Hubert's face does look a lot like Monty Druitt.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 4:55 am: | |
Hi Jeff,I really really enjoyed reading this-its what is so brilliant about this site-all the fascinating bits of history and so on that get thrown up.
You do not say though in what way this might lead us to JtR.Perhaps by inference?Do you think that it was Hubert rather than Monty who should have been the Prime Suspect?If so what other evidence might there be?I would love to see a photo of him.
Do you know if he had any connection with Whitechapel[after all we still know of none connecting Druitt to Whitechapel-none at all.]
Please tell us some more when you can.
Natalie |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 429
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
Once I thought of writing a book of essays regarding the Ripper, and a section would have dealt with the leading suspects. Several of the essays were individually published (THE RIPPEROLOGIST published the second half of my Deeming essay a number of months ago). One of the essays, which I never wrote down, was to be on Monty and the bizaare coincidence regarding Hubert Montague Crackenthorpe. The problems were two: was it just a bizaare coincidence that Hubert and Monty looked alike and had such similar fates in two famous European rivers, and even if there was a connection (which I never found - hence my not writing and publishing the essay), what does it do to connect the subject matter with the Whitechapel murders?
Let us organize this a little more:
1) Is Monty a cousin of Hubert and Darryl Crackenthorpe?
I am not a genealogist. A good one might be able to solve this. And keep in mind, when studying the family trees involved, Hubert's last name was "Cookson" up to 1888 (to me a happier name than "Crackenthorpe", but there was that large inheritance involved).
2. For the sake of argument, if Hubie was Monty's cousin - would word of Monty's demise and the suspicions attached to it have drifted over to the Cookson/Crackenthorpe family? This becomes more likely when given that Hubie's father was a leading Victorian legal scholar (who in 1896 went with Sir Frank Lockwood and Chief Justice Sir Charles Russell (Florence Maybrick's barrister in 1889) on a visit to the U.S. as guests of the American Bar Association - The older Crackenthorpe was widely respected indeed).
The older Mr. Crackenthorpe (if we assume correctly that there is a family connection) would have known of Monty as a relative who was a barrister, and through legal/police contacts might have been aware of official suspicions.
3)If the connection is there, if the knowledge of Monty's death and official suspicions is there, could it have affected Hubie?
First it might have stimulated his taste in writing, a la Emile Zola, about lower class lives - including prostitutes.
Secondly, if his death was suicide, he may have decided "What's good for cousin Monty is a good enough method for me!"
4) Still assuming the initial premise is right (my use of premises in this attempt at logic resembles someone else on these boards, even now defending his idea against all parties) would this connection between Monty (a possible Ripper suspect) and Hubie (a possible copycat suicide) have led to Darryl to do everything possible to cover up the death of his brother as quickly as he could? Darryl did not hide the suicide verdict, but left it open. But instead of trying to slide the death into death by accident (the Seine had been flooding heavily that November of 1896) he just buried his brother and walked away from any further questions at the time. Darryl did not want a first class scandal (the bust-up of his brother's marriage, and the business with Richard Le Gallienne's sister) to muddy up his own reputation as a coming figure in England's diplomatic corp. And if his brother's suicide should have reopened a family connection and model from an even worse scandal, that career might have collapsed.
[But before jumping up and yelling "Eureka" look at the following:
1) Within a year of Hubie's demise, Darryl marries
Ena Sickels. It is a love match, which is a powerful excuse for what is incongruous to our earlier supposition: If Darryl was so career oriented as to hide the Hubie suicide scandal (and maybe the older Monty suicide scandal and background), why would he marry so soon after the daughter of a notorious figure like Dan Sickels?
Love is blind, that is all I can say. Moreover, the murder of Philip Key led to an acquittal. But there was a lot of other "colorful" details regarding Sickels and his career (including trying to force a war between the U.S. and Spain over Cuba) which made him a dubious relation at best. I am glad that Ena and Darryl had a happy marriage, despite General Sickels.
2) You may notice something (which made me hesitate before pressing on with my researches here): Except for a series of assumptions based on "What if" scenarios, there is nothing tying anything I have said that definitely connects Hubie and Monty, and certainly nothing connecting Hubie and his death to Whitechapel! It is all interesting, in it's way - but is it constructive interesting or merely colorful? At this point I might opt for colorful.]
I wish I could suggest more than a bizaare pair of nearly identical victims of watery deaths, who look alike and died within a decade of each other. There is nothing else to go on.
As for a photograph of Hubie, I found one in the reference room of the local library in 1990 - in a book entitled EUROPEAN AUTHORS. But if you find a book about Hubert Montague Crackenthorpe by his brother's grandson (also named Darryl Crackenthorpe) there are two photos of him in that book.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 7:05 pm: | |
Hi Jeff I really must look out for some of these articles.
There are coicidences I agree but we would need to know if they were related before any thing else.Enjoyable read though
Natalie |
J. Whyman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 10:35 am: | |
Jeff,
Can I suggest that if Hubert and Monty were distant cousins it might be that they were related through some connection to the Montague family. For example Hubert's father was Montague Hughes Cookson (later Crackanthorpe) and Monty's father had a first cousin Edward Montague Hare (whoms mother Barbara Mayo was the sister of William Druitt's mother Jane). Also, Edward Montague Hare's brother Hugh James Hare had a son called John Hugh Montague Hare which leads me to suspect that there was some sort of connection to the Montague family in the Mayo family tree.
I myself have never been particually impressed by the so-called 'likeness' between Monty and Prince Eddy. Black and white photographs are always problamatic: I've seen paintings of Eddy where he is shown to have light brown hair, which in his photos of course appears dark. I also heard somewhere that there was a considerable difference in height between the two: can anybody verify this?
J. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 432
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 9:16 pm: | |
Hi J.
You are right about the likeness between Monty and Eddy (this is cosy isn't it, calling the trio by nicknames). Actually Eddy has a heavier, rounder chin (which he inherited from his mother Alexandra - compare her face with his). Monty's face seems more triangular, and (though this is somewhat subjective on my part - and somewhat partisan too) more thoughful. Monty looks like he went to Winchester and Oxford, and if he did not perform at Oxford as well as he could have he still got mentally stimulated there. Eddy looks like he went through Cambridge, knowing James Kenneth Stephen and the Dons would get him through, so that he could concentrate on whether his hand was properly placed on the pommel of his sword while posing for his portrait. The vacuity of his face just is not in Monty's.
Oddly enough, his Hanovarian inheritance (the poached eyes) do look like someone else's eyes. Compare Eddy's eyes with his brother George V's and with the eyes of Lord Randolph Churchill. I don't know of any actual blood connection between the Churchill's and the Hanovarians (even one with a bar sinister), but those eyes do look alike. But that (again) is just my opinion.
Is the Mayo Family tree connected to the family of Richard Bourke, Earl of Mayo, and Viceroy of India until his untimely death in 1872 (he was assassinated by a prisoner while visiting the prison on the Andaman Islands)?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 273
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 8:01 am: | |
No I don't think the Druitt-linked Mayo family had any connection with the family of Richard Bourke, Earl of Mayo; (Quite culinary this discussion, what with "mayo" and "poached eyes"!)..
I am not sure we can compare the height of Monty and Eddy, unless we can track down photos of them both standing next to the same unchanged, inanimate structure.
As for other similarities, I notice Monty has a pronounced cleft chin and an extraordinarily low hair line on his forehead. And a rather egg shaped (here we go again..!)head. The width of the centre part in his hair style is also rather pronounced.
Repeating an earlier question: is the photo of Monty with head-on-hand-reading-a-book, as shown in the picture bar at the head of a Case-book page, reversed? The handkerchief in his top coat pocket appears to be on the right, when, normally, it is on the left?
Eddy was a hooded-eyelidded, chain smoker.
And, unlike every one of the (three) photos of Monty I have seen, Eddy appears to look straight towards the camera in his photos. |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 426
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 8:24 am: | |
John
Yes, I think Stephen confirmed previously that the photo had been reversed, so it fitted in with the composition.
That's an interesting point about the handkerchief. Having mused over this photo previously for a clue about whether Druitt was right- or left-handed, I had missed the handkerchief. If it was for use rather than ornament, does that confirm Druitt was right-handed?
Chris Phillips
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David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 48
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:49 am: | |
Montys school records, from Winchester, show that he not only played 'fives' but was the school champion at that game. Its a game rather like tennis except it is played without bats, or raquets, using only the hands. The best players of this game are usually ambidextorous.
Regards
David |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:23 am: | |
I think it was a fashion feature the handkerchief.Itwas and still is at some functions in England [masonic functions for example that arent "black tie"and others where a semi-formal dress code is required for men.Its usually made of silk.My Fathers were always red or maroon.
Natalie |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 316
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 1:56 pm: | |
Prince Eddy's always been excused from the running because he was at some kind of function in Scotland. But if Monty was in Scotland and Prince Eddy was killing women in Whitechapel, then Monty found out what he was covering for, he might well have drowned himself. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 434
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:30 pm: | |
Hi Diana,
If Monty was willing to do a "great impersonation" deal with Eddy, and took over his duty in Scotland while Eddy ran amuck in Whitechapel, Monty would be a good candidate for being murdered, as he knew too much. Also, his numerous absences from Mr. Valentine's school (in order to parade around in costume as Eddy at Sandringham or Balmoral or whatever) would have caused his dismissal from his job in September 1888, not November 1888.
I just don't it was very likely.
Jeff |
David Andersen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 51
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:45 pm: | |
Aha there you have it you see. It was actually Eddy who was sacked by Valentine. Impersonating a schoolmaster was a serious offence especially if you are really the heir presumptive to the throne of England.
Regards
David |
Simon Owen
Police Constable
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:11 am: | |
Joke for World War 2 buffs :
Eddy : I Was Monty's Double
yuk yuk !  |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 274
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 3:12 am: | |
Thanks Chris Phillips for drawing my attention to Stephen P Ryder's deliberate reversal of Monty's image at the top of the page.
And thanks David Andersen for starting this thread
I too was interested to learn you grew up next to Mr Wilson's "chummery" -THE OSIERS on The Thames at Chiswick. Do you know where "Lock Hospital" was/ is?
Because this is the likely first repository of Monty's Inquest papers prior to being forwarded(?)
to the Greater London Records Office. Since bombed.
I too really enjoyed the scenario of Monty being Eddy's double. If he actually was, he would have been able to chat up the chicks -or blokes- in pubs like a Rock Star's double. Monty should have been a right raver!!
Thanks Simon Owen for waking us up to the title of that great Readers Digest Story: "I was Monty's Double". I missed the joke first up.
As for decorative handkerchiefs in men's top pockets. In the Edwardian era this was an emerging fad, presumeably replacing the handkerchief stuffed up ones shirt sleeve and protruding at the wrist!
I much prefer the current mode: a clashing coloured silk handkerchief billowing copiously from the top pocket.
Ah fashion! Where would we be without it?
A device invented by parents to ensure their teenage children have hours and hours of hilarity every time they thumb through old photo albums. |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:53 am: | |
Now where does Evelyn Ruggles-Brise fit into all this??
Evelyn is clearly a woman's name, and he/she was well placed to manipulate the case, having Druitt killed off at just the right time. dying in 1935 R-B was clearly killed by George V (shortly before the latter's death) to prevent the secret getting out. Queen Mary had George V killed (we KNOW HE was killed and by whom) in a final act of vengeance, as she had of course always loved Monty!!
Phil |
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