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Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 524
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 9:36 am: |       |
Hi,
sorry to start a new thread but I didn't want to get my question lost in everything else thats going on in 'diary world'.
Now my question is this - I know James Maybrick was probably addicted to arsenic. What were the physical affects of this addiction?
Now I have here a book called 'The Encyclopedia of Forensic Science' by Brian Lane (which I have dusted off for this occasion), and on page 48 it states the symptoms of arsenic poisoning include irritation, faintness, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain aggravated by touch, diarrhoea... and i don't think there's any need to go on. Did any of symptoms occur in those who took arsenic in non lethal quantities, what were the cumulative effects of the arsenic taking? How long did James take arsenic for?
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 801
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:57 am: | |
Hi, Jennifer
The symptoms of arsenic poisoning are as those you describe in the quote which shows how hard it was for the doctors to determine if the victim, in this case James Maybrick, simply had some other type of stomach complaint, food poisoning, a bug such as cholera or typhus, etc. One of the things I have been thinking about is that the same symptoms might have manifested themselves if the addict was deprived of his daily dose of arsenic. In other words, he might be fine if he took the dose, but if he didn't then he might become ill. This could explain why little arsenic was found in Maybrick's system, perhaps. According to the testimony at Florie's trial, Jim had been taking arsenic and strychnine since he had suffered an attack of malaria in Norfolk, Virginia in the early 1880's.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 525
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 2:46 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
thanks for the info. I was just wondering if James' habit might in fact render him physical incapable at any time, if you catch my drift?
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 802
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 8:17 am: | |
Hi, Jennifer
Supposedly among those who dose themselves with arsenic it acts as an aphrodisiac (don't try this at home, kiddies) or at least that is why the gents at the Cotton Exchange in Liverpool slipped into the chemist's to get their daily pick-me-up of a diluted arsenic potion known as Fowler's solution. A number of nineteenth century texts maintain that arsenic was put in the feed of racing horses to improve their coats and was used by Hungarian mountain climbers to give them extra energy. I thus don't think that the arsenic would necessarily make Maybrick ill as such but rather if he was an addict, a change in his dose, or not getting it, might cause symptoms. This points up one of the fallacies of the Maybrick case: how do you poison an arsenic addict with arsenic?
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 536
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 9:55 am: | |
Chris
thanks once again for the info. i guess this means that Mr Maybrick would in theory at least have been physically capable of carrying out the crimes
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 803
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:24 am: | |
Hi, Jennifer
Yes, perhaps the daily doses of arsenic might have helped give Maybrick strength or the illusion of strength. On the other hand, his age is against him if he is to be seriously considered as a suspect, leaving aside the problems with the Diary which remains the major thing that puts him in the frame, give or take the supposed "Maybrick watch."
I think most authorities agree that the crimes probably would have had to have been done by a strong, agile individual. The fact that the murderer escaped quickly after each of the crimes, and he was not seen escaping, indicates he must have been moving swiftly, presumably on foot. Would the middle-aged James Maybrick, a hypochondriac drug addict, have been able to move that quickly?
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 539
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:32 am: | |
Hi Chris,
I don't know - thats what I'm trying to figure out. doubtful but possible one might argue!
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 804
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:43 am: | |
Hi, Jennifer
I think in truth Maybrick fits more the stereotype of the tophatted, caped gent that is often pictured as the Ripper, than the working class sailor-capped man that a number of the suspect descriptions appear to describe, and which to my mind might have in reality have been the murderer. 
So in other words the hoaxer who fabricated the "diary" gave the public the common conception of "Jack" which might or might not match the actual murderer.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Would you then rule Tumblety out as a credible suspect because (I believe) he was nearly ten years older than Maybrick, and wasn't known to take pick-me-ups like arsenic?
Love,
Caz
X |
John V. Omlor
Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 447
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 7:42 am: | |
Of course, unlike the real James Maybrick, there's actually a historical document that links Tumblety to the case.
You know, like "evidence" and "the record" and stuff?
Funny how that works.
--John
PS: At EPCOT there's this ride dedicated to Imagination, and a cute little dragon guides you through it. The dragon's name?
Figment.
You can see him here: http://http://www.figmentsimagination.com/
Figment, it seems to me, should be the new, Official Mascot of DiTA day and Diary World.
PPS: If anyone can find me a little usable clipart of Figment, they will receive my eternal thanks.
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 814
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 9:50 am: | |
Hi, Caz
Although Littlechild believed Tumblety to be a "very likely" suspect, yes, I do think his age is against him. However, I continue to look on Tumblety and D'Onston as interesting suspects despite the fact that both are older and taller than the suspect sightings.
Dr. T certainly was a shady character and was up to a number of things that might have put him under suspicion, not the least the homosexual behavior for which he was booked during the time of the Whitechapel murders. It seems that the police of the day viewed sexual deviancy as a motivating factor for the types of crimes committed by the Ripper, whereas, as we have seen, many students of the case today tend to discount Tumblety, rightly or wrongly, because of his homosexuality.
Obviously, Caz, Dr. T does have a leg up over Maybrick having been provably in London at the time of the murders and being mentioned in a letter by a Scotland Yard official. Maybrick's supposed suspect candidacy has neither advantage.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1147
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 4:30 am: | |
Hi Chris,
My original point was, and remains, that no one can logically and objectively use Maybrick's age to support their case against him killing those weak and vulnerable women - if they consider Tumblety a viable suspect on any grounds despite his age.
I'm not including you here, but it beats me why anyone else would tout this rather tenuous age argument (unless they are also ruling out Tumblety as too old, in which case it would help their credibility to say so) if their defence of Maybrick is watertight without it.
Love,
Caz
X
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 823
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
Hi, Caz
Aye, well, of course, age is against both Tumblety and Maybrick. My point though is that Maybrick just makes a rather convenient suspect, an apparently not too likable but somewhat typical Victorian family man and merchant with a shady side.
The dark aspect to Mr. Maybrick probably makes it that much easier to peg him as the shadiest of Victorians because it seems just a step toward the ultimate in bloodiness. But, however, possibly a bit too good to be true, Diary or no Diary, eh? 
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by chrisg on July 29, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1148
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Yeah, very convenient, living 200 miles away from ripper territory. 
Anyone picking a shady character who was apparently so far from the actual crime scenes that Middlesex Street lodgings had to be dragged in to assist, and choosing one who was also in the habit of consulting various chemists and doctors near and far, morning, noon and night, must have had a damned good reason for still making Maybrick their number one choice; a reason that, for them, outweighed all the headaches of a suspect too far, whose own headaches and recorded searches for relief must not, on any account, be found to coincide with any of the murder times - in short, a reason that made Maybrick, for them, good enough to be true.
Too good to be true must have been an unexpected bonus, no?
Love,
Caz
X
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John V. Omlor
Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 492
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 5:54 pm: | |
"A damned good reason..."
Or just a timely one.
--John |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 5:05 am: | |
Yeah, how could I have forgotten? Time and time again, Mike Barrett's concept of dates and sense of timing has proved second to none - I can quite see how some people might have fallen completely under the man's spell. 
Love,
Caz
X
|
John V. Omlor
Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 495
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 7:25 am: | |
And as for that "damned good reason..."
Not just time, of course, but place, too.
Incidentally, since we're speaking of things "too good to be true" for our forgers, we should not fail to list the most impressive break they've received.
We should not hesitate to make explicit the single thing that really was the most "too good to be true" for them, out of all their lucky moments.
What I'm sure they still, even now, find simply and utterly "too good to be true" is the stunningly prodigious capacity among a few people for the willing suspension of disbelief.
Surely that is all that ever allowed this book ever to be offered publicly as anything other than a bad fake full of ahistoricisms, written in the wrong handwriting, without a shed of verifiable provenance, and even containing words from a document the supposed author could never have seen, in the first place.
At least I hope it was just that.
And that same capacity for the willing suspension of disbelief, for the integration of pure desire into acts of reading, remains with us here and keeps hope alive in the Loyal Order of Denial, even now.
If I was a forger, that's what I would find, at the end of the day, the week, the month, the year, the past decade, truly too good be true.
People who want (or need) to believe.  Ya' gotta' love 'em.
Still enjoying Diary World, that magical place where things can be made real just by wishing,
--John
(Message edited by omlor on August 01, 2004) |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 616
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 7:37 am: | |
Hi everyone,
I'm so glad I started this thread. Quite possibly it was one of my best decisions of that week.
I still don't know if I believe that Maybrick for want of a better expression, being out of his head on arsenic, could have walked in a straight line let alone murdered anyone. But hang in I think Chris T-G told me the answer to that once (thanks Chris I found it useful) James wouldn't have been off his head unless he was not on the arsenic. And thats where it should have ended ......................................
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
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