| Author |
Message |
    
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1328
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 4:07 pm: |       |
Hi all
Having had a think about this length of bed thing..As one cursed by the short bed syndrome! Id guess that the 'average' bed has to be about 5'10" and that a 6' one is a luxury..that bed and palliasse in Millers Ct appears(!) be be shorter than that and I would guess at about 5'8".
Now although we cant see the bottom of it ..it appears that the body's feet although drawn up dont reach anywhere near the foot of the bed..With all these very tenuous and 'fact-free' facts I would suggest the body to be no more than 5'2"-3" tall as the head appears to be pretty close to the headboard...Just a thought...
Cheers
Suzi |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
G'day,
I s'pose the police had no doubts who the body on the bed belonged to, and trusted her aquaintences who said she was 5ft 7ins tall! They had no reason to lie.
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3085
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
Hi Suzi
I think they could have taken a description from Barnett and published that.
The only way I can think of to try and estimate her height would be to re-enact the photo - in a room of the same dimensions, with the original photgraphic equipment. Not with a murdered woman, of course. Who knows, it might tell us something.
Robert |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 302
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 5:24 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
"Not with a murdered woman, of course."
OK, now I question if you are truly dedicated to the cause of Ripperology...
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3086
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 5:35 pm: | |
Well Dan, on that one the ball's in Suzi's court!
Robert |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 55
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 5:36 pm: | |
Suzi,
I don't think that a 6' bed would have been considered a luxury.
crib size is 27" x 50"
twin bed size 39" x 75"
Robert,
What was the exact size of Kelly's room?
Nina
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3087
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 6:01 pm: | |
Nina, Sugden says it was about 12 or 15 ft square. But I seem to remember that Bob Hinton tried to work out some measurements concerning the window, the door and the bricks. Maybe we can get some idea of the dimensions by counting the bricks in the window photo?
Robert |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 12:38 am: | |
Robert,
Count the bricks! 
I did a little searching and found
"The Whitechapel Dossier: Dorset Street and Miller's Court" as reported by The Viper
The room is described as being 12' x 10'.
I'm considering the project you mentioned. I have a few empty, spare rooms one of which may be small enough. I guess I have some measuring to do. My husbands going to think I'm insane.
Nina  |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1461
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 2:35 am: | |
G'day,
Author Bruce Paley said that Mary's room was 12ft square, that's 12x12.
If I remember correctly, Bob Hinton was trying to work out if Mary was capable of reaching the door's lock from the window, (taking into consideration her height).
LEANNE
Q: Why do men like computers so much?
A: No matter what mood they're in, they can still get a floppy in!
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1463
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 5:43 am: | |
G'day,
The 'Daily Telegraph' of Saturday November 10 said that Kelly's room was about 15ft square and that Mary was 'twenty-four years of age, tall, slim, fair, of fresh complexion, and of attractive appearance.'
LEANNE |
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 92
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 1:42 pm: | |
Found this:
" A recent study conducted at Ohio State University, based on skeletal data from 30 previous studies, reveals that men living during the 9th to 11th centuries had an average height of about 5 feet 8 inches. Average height then steadily declined until it reached a low point of 5 feet 5.5 inches in the 17th and 18th centuries, rising again through the 19th century and only reaching prior heights in the first half of the 20th century. An article on the study by Richard Steckel appears in the Social Science History journal.
Today, average height in American men is about 5 feet 9 inches and in American women 5 feet 4 inches. According to a study completed in 2002 (see the article by John Carvel at the Guardian), Britons have similar average heights, while most Europeans are an inch or two shorter. The exception is the Dutch, who are about an inch taller than Brits and Americans."
So, all you scientists can extrapolate from it.
I remember visting an historic home from the 1870's and being surprised by how short the beds were.
I think a height of 5'7" would have made Mary extremely tall for a woman of her time
Mags |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 4:37 pm: | |
Hi Leanne and Maria
Well we've got em off on one eh!!?
I to be honest how long that bed was in Millers Ct but suspect it to be shorter than the average so to speak!
Leanne- I usually trust the 'Telegraph' but think that room size to be a tad on the large size!! 12' x 10' is my idea c/o the A-Z etc etc Bob's your lock man for sure but whether he's worked out the bed to lock thing is anyones guess!....wouldn't be surprised if he had though! eh Bob?
Mags-Im 5'10 and thats tall now!!! 5'7" would have made Mary a positive Amazon!!!and certainly more than noticable in and around Dorset St and its' environs!
Good one though 'eh?
Cheers!!
Suzi
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 4:40 pm: | |
Hi Leanne and Maria
Well we've got em off on one eh!!?
I to be honest dont have a clue how long that bed was in Millers Ct but suspect it to be shorter than the average so to speak!
Leanne- I usually trust the 'Telegraph' but think that room size to be a tad on the large size!! 12' x 10' is my idea c/o the A-Z etc etc Bob's your lock man for sure but whether he's worked out the bed to lock thing is anyones guess!....wouldn't be surprised if he had though! eh Bob?
Mags-Im 5'10 and thats tall now!!! 5'7" would have made Mary a positive Amazon!!!and certainly more than noticable in and around Dorset St and its' environs!
Good one though 'eh?
Cheers!!
Suzi
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 4:47 pm: | |
ROBERT!!!
Cant help but laugh at the advent of the Dorset Street Bed Re-enactment Society..otherwise known as the D.S.B.R.S. armed with a variable bed and a saw marching into what passes for Dorset St these days and meeting the Ripper Tour coming the other way!!!
What a DELIGHTFUL image....right 'down a bit' 'up a bit' ok 'assume the position'....saw saw saw 'oooooooooooops sorry madam!!!!'
hehehehe
Suzi (DSBRS) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Mary was described by several people as "tall fair and fresh complexioned" and by Walter Dew as "pretty and tall and buxom".
Most beds are standard size ie 6 feet long.
The police saw her corpse after all and Walter Dew was one of those police and as he saw her in life too he would surely have commented on it if he thought she looked a totally different height on the bed?
Nats |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1337
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 5:08 pm: | |
Hi Nats!
Gonna join the DSBRS then???
Beds in my experience are never 6' long!!!
God that sounds awful but mine isnt and I sort of trail over the bottom....and my legs hang over the end too!
HmmmmmmmStill despite all this think that MJK looks that tall
Cheers
see you SHORTLY!!!!
Suzi
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1464
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 6:11 pm: | |
G'day,
Ummmmm, I am 5ft 11ins tall, (I don't resemble an 'Amazon'), and have never had a problem fitting into a bed. At some hotels in other countries, (including the U.S.), my feet have come close to the bottom edge, but I always fit! Most beds ARE 6ft long, some just a bit longer, to cater for tallies! Suzi you need to buy another bed!
SUZI: I don't trust the 'Telegraph' either in guessing that the room was 15ft square. Someone could have told the reporter quickly, and it wasn't an important enough detail to verify.
Mary's room wasn't a standard Miller's Court room! It was partitioned from McCarthy's shed, remember!
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 6:14 pm: | |
Hi Suzi
Well, it won't be me taking the photo because my photographic abilities are zero (I have in the past taken a photo of my finger and also my foot).
Robert |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 61
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 7:55 pm: | |
Hi Suzi and Leanne,
You two make me feel like a midget at 5'2". 
Just found this!
In 1865, the journal The Lancet reported on the state of medical provision in the workhouse:
"The bedsteads were partly wood, and in some wards iron, on an average six feet in length and two feet six inches in width"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Southwark/Southwark.html
Took measurements and the smallest room I have is 11 x 12.
Nina
Dedicated DSBRS member
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1340
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:18 am: | |
Hi all DSBRS members!!!
Leanne-
Us Amazons must stick together and keep our heads down eh?!!! (LOL!) Think that room must have been about 12' by 11' ish at the most tho!
Nina- Gosh!! a 6' bed!!! LUXURY!!!!
Robert-EVERY photo as some people will tell you has a lurking finger/thumb in it!!!!
As to Bob and his prowess on the subject of rooms and locks etc...I'm sure he'll be back on this soon!!!...Nobody does it better!
Cheers
Suzi (next time I go upstairs kit!)
|
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 65
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:04 am: | |
Hi Suzi,
Thats some kit!
I've been thinking!!! If a reconstruction of the room was made, it wouldn't help to figure out her height. Legs and torsos come in all sizes. Even if the right size bed was used, a difference of 4" could easily be miscalculated.
Nina
Former DSBRS member 
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 2:11 pm: | |
Hi Nina!
Actually as one of the sadder members of society I do recall making a little scale dolls house thing of Millers Court and having it in the back of my car with sundry detritus for some time!!!!
Sadly (or maybe happily!) I dont have it anymore but as you say a diffrerence of 4" makes all the difference!
Seriously(!!!!!) tho I reckon our Mary (if twas she) to be about 5'4" tops!
 stitches out tomorrow!
Suzi DSBRS (founder member!)new hat!
new hat!
 |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 70
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 9:00 pm: | |
Hi Suzi,
I still Mary as 5'7" and wearing a chemise.
Good luck with those stitches and keep that hat on!
Nina |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 3:30 am: | |
Hi,
If only the picture [ supposed in existance] of Barnett/Kelly/ brother Dan, showed up, that would be obviously to much to ask, we not only would have a true likeness of these people but as we know Barnetts height would be able to gauge Marys height approx, as she and Barnett were according to some identical in height.
Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1466
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 4:19 am: | |
G'day Rich,
Bruce Paley gave Josephs, Johns, Daniels and Denis's height as per their Billingsgate Porters licences, in his book 'The Simple Truth'. They were '5ft 7ins, 5ft 4ins, 5ft 6ins and 5ft 6ins' respectively.
Their first licences were issued on the 1st of July 1878, Joseph was 19 or 20 years old, and I don't think he would have shrunk much in 10 years to 1888.
LEANNE |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 3:24 pm: | |
Hi Leanne,Richard et al
RIGHT! theres not a great deal oif difference in being 5'7" and 6" etc but there is a difference between that and 5'4"!! oooooooooh god maybe Mary was just a bit tall for her time 'eh....5'7" lets close on that then!!!! This would seem to suggest that Mary was well nourished at some point in her life then at least..at least in childhood wherever that may have been!
Looking again (and again) at the picture tho she doesn't appear to be that tall,although it all depends on that bed tho again!!! Like those midgets they get to advertise sleeping bags these days!!!!
Cheers
Suzi
|
Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad
Post Number: 191
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 9:35 pm: | |
Hi All. All this bed talk has me wondering. Im 5'11 and if I put my heels even with the bottom of the be I easily have 5 or 6 inches beyond my head to the upper edge of the bed.
I have to believe its atleast 5 foot wide. When I was younger I had a water bed that was 7 foot by 6'3. If we have this much disparagement now, I can only surmise that beds were all sizes in 1888.
Yours Brad |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1374
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:13 pm: | |
Hi Brad!!!!!
Gosh we'll all be going to bed with a tape measure tonight I reckon! Most beds (single) these days are 2'6" by about 5'10" and most doubles are around ....if youre lucky about 5' x somewhere short of 6' ....guess it depends on how high you sleep up the bed though!
God water bed eh?!
Make sure youve got that Cure-C -Cure
outfit at hand I say!!!!!
Cheers
Suzix |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 666
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Brad
Perhaps beds are longer in the States than they are here. I'm six foot, and I don't remember the last time I slept in a proper bed when my feet were not sticking over the end.
(ps. proper in that I normally sleep on a futon, which is plenty long enough!)
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise." |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 5:22 pm: | |
Alan!
Thank god I'm not the only person who sleeps from the ankles down.. over the edge!!!!!or the end maybe!
Tell you what the only 'decent 'sized beds...hate to say it have been in TRAVELODGES!! they're 5'5" wide by 6'5" WOW!!!!!!! Made in Denmark allegedly!!!!
Not sure if this has anything to do with poor old Mary and her bed but as am off to mine soon it's a subject close to my heart!
Nite!
Suzi |
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