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Geeper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 3:28 pm: |       |
My question for this thread is a simple one, did John Montague Druitt commit suicide.
By all acounts this seems to be an unquestioned thing.
Did he plan to commit suicide? IF his letter is authentic and to be believed then yes, but planning and doing are 2 separate things.
Not looking for any sympathy (so please don't give it) but I have tried overdosing, hanging, jumping, cutting, dosing with gasoline and lighting it on fire and drowning amung many other things in my past and was never able to commit suicide. I have also been in treatment with people who have tried many things and it is simply not that easy to kill yourself without owning a gun. Druitt's own mother and aunt (I believe) had tried and failed to take their own lives.
I simply can not believe that a strong man (apparently a strong swimmer from some accounts) could possibly down himself by simply putting rocks in his pockets. Without the use of some intoxicant, natural instincts to survive kick in, and whether or not your mind wants to kill yourself, many times your body won't let you. It's a natural defence mechanism.
I also believe that rocks big enough to hold a strong man's body down... wait a minute... the rocks were not big enough to hold him down, he was found floating. I was going to say they would have to be big enough that they would have ripped his pockets open when his body went into it's own death struggle, but the body was found floating, so the rocks can not be blamed for his drowning. They obviously were not heavy enough to hold him down under the water.
Once again the question of intoxicants comes up, it would seem if the rocks were not heavy enough to hold the body down some type of intoxicant (or wound) would have to be blamed for the drowning.
The coroner's papers apparently no longer exist so any other signs, wounds or forensic evidence is completely lost. It can be assumed that after seeing the rocks and hearing of the note a good autopsy was probably not done as suicide by downing was the conclusion.
Were there any wounds on the body? Could they possibly be made out after a month in the water? (I believe most of you saw the posts in the old message board as to what a body looks like after a month in water) Were any bones broken? Were these simply attributed to his jump? Was there anything in his stomach? Was he drunk? Drugged or on drugs?
I don't believe he committed suicide from the evidence I posted above and some I haven't. (Com'on, I can't make it too easy, it's all in the Casebook somewhere anyway) I believe many a suicide, up till modern forensics, was actually a hidden or unsolved murder that was easily explained with a suicide. |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Police Constable
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 7:29 pm: | |
Whatho Geeper,
This is a very interesting question. There is something suspicious about the whole affair but perhaps I am fallng into the conspiracy trap.
But Montague was carrying a return ticket about his person so he was expecting to return home therefore if he did commit sucidice, it must have been at the spur of the moment. From what you write above, you are in a better position than most to judge the situation.
As for the weight of the stones; I believe a decomposing dead body forms gases within and these gases would have made the body more buoyant and thus it would overcome the added weight. I expact one of the medical experts can either confirm or put me right.
Cheers, Mark |
Kydon
Police Constable
Username: Kydon
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 12:17 am: | |
Hello,
I too have wondered about the return ticket indicating that he expected to go home, but then if it was his custom to buy 'round trip' he may have just done this out of habit not thinking about whether or not he would actually use it.
just a thought.
Ky |
John Ruffels
Police Constable
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 6:32 pm: | |
Firstly, hello New Discussion World!
Geeper raises some valid points about Montague Druitt's suicide.
The stones in his overcoat pockets.Would have been a rather cumbersome device for arranging your death.And on a cold December night, few fishermen or boatmen would have been around to ask for assistance!
I know this is disrespectful to MJD, but, his last moments must have looked hilarious : with him dressed up to the nines, in his best bib and tucker, waddling along the pier/bank of the Thames like some kind of large penguin.Perhaps he died of LAUGHTER!
But ,to return to the point:Geeper and Mark Andrew Pardoe are correct: gasses and decomposition of Druitt's overcoat material, after being immersed for a whole month, would have combined to force the corpse to the surface.
Though some stones must have remained 'in situ'.
I too have wondered if Druitt was addicted to drugs.Cocaine or a derivative.After all, several witnesses spoke of The Ripper as having "brilliant shining eyes".Did this drug enhance the Ripper's sense of hearing and sight
during his/her nefarious forays?
Was this the reason for his dismissal from Valentine's school?
I agree with a poster on the Old Boards, that Montague Druitt was seeking emotional support when he went to Chiswick.Either that 'cry for help' was not answered -perhaps,the person approached refused support, gave insufficient support, or was just not home- thereby prompting a desperate and discombobulated Druitt to end it all..
Finally, on the Old Boards, I called for a list of all encountered press reports of Montague Druitt's suicide.It appears there are twelve.The vast majority are syndicated repeats of the Wimborne version.Only the ACTON, CHISWICK & TURNHAM GREEN GAZETTE seems to provide additional information.Hopefully,some clever sleuth will turn up others which give further details.As it appears (and I am assuming here)that the Inquest papers for Montague John Druitt no longer exist.
Is that definite???
Or if they have been destroyed, someone might discover some subsidiary official records, (like discussions between Scotland Yard and the Treasury Solicitor's office concerning the propriety of revealing the identity of Jack The Ripper if he has suicided before he could be found guilty in a court of law...). |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Police Constable
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:58 pm: | |
Regarding the round trip ticket, although I think
it most likely force of habit, Monty might have
been in a happier or more hopeful state of mind
when he went to his destination, only to find the
rug pulled from underneath him by whatever happened when he got there. This could have been
some final blow to his mental health or a realization that he was going to be exposed in
some way (perhaps not as the Ripper, but as a
sexual deviant). In any case, his suicide may have been a sudden decision. Since we do not know
how heavy those stones were, we can never tell
if they did pull him under. Nor, unless the
actual coroner's papers turn up can we judge if
there were any particular blows to his body suggesting a possible act of violence before his
body was put into the Thames.
Jeff |
Geeper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
Regarding the round trip ticket...
If he bought the ticket and his suicide was a sudden decision, then his suicide letter has to be discounted. If you discount that there this is no evidence of a suicide at all. Just a weighed down body trown in the river, one of the first ways I'd consider getting rid of a body if I murdered someone.
Then again if he was heading to commit suicide then he might have bought the round trip ticket to avert suspision. People who knew him, or familiar people at the satation might have thought it was funny he was buying a one way ticket. Knowing he was about to commit suicide he wouldn't have cared about spending he extra money to hide why he was travelling.
Does the ticket really prove or disprove anything? |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Police Constable
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 10:53 pm: | |
The ticket does not prove or disprove anything,
unless you can trace the exact last movements of
Monty on the day he used the ticket, and committed
suicide. Moreover, we don't know what is actually
in the suicide note - we only have a report that
it referred to Monty feeling he was losing his
mind (referring to his mother's current condition). I don't think the actual suicide note
has ever been seen since 1889 (presumably William
Druitt offered it at the inquest). Actually, like
so much else in the Whitechapel Murders, the
evidence is murkier than we think.
Jeff |
Neil Howard
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
I think it's too much of a coincidance that Druit left a suicide note and was then found dead.
If his death was either accident,murder or a last minute decision to end his life,how could a note posibilly have been left?
I have never heard of the return ticket (i'm new to this),but I think it is reasonable to assume that it was bought out of habit.Also if it was a journey he made on a regular basis the ticket seller out of habit may have issued the ticket automatically on seeing him. |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 5:24 pm: | |
Whatho Neil,
In the past there have been theories the suicide note was not actually written by Montague but by his brother. After all, his brother was a bit cagey about the trust of Montague's relations so was he trying to hide something?
If Montague did not write the letter, his suicide could well have been a spontaneous act; Hammersmith has that affect on people  .
Cheers, Mark |
John Ruffels
Police Constable
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 7:39 pm: | |
Regarding the Return ticket to Hammersmith found on the long-immersed corpse of Montague Druitt.
More investigation needs to be made into the links
Druitt possibly had with that district.Did he have friends or relatives residing there?
At this stage, we do not have enough information to assess the logic of his possessing a Return ticket.If his visit to that locality was a "cry-for-help",it is possible he thought the person/persons he intended confiding in would provide some moral support, thereby meaning he would be using the Return ticket to go back to his new (?) accommodation in a more positive frame of mind.
Has anyone read anything definite about whether Druitt's Inquest papers were destroyed? |
John Ruffels
Police Constable
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 5:58 am: | |
Readers interested in the state of Montague Druitt's mind at the time he threw himself into The Thames ,(especially for those afficionados who still believe he WAS Jack The Ripper), might care to turn to the "Press Reports" section of the Casebook Website and read the entry for the (London,U.K.) SUNDAY TIMES of 28 December, 1888.
There they will see a curious symmetry of emotions
being experienced by a young German-born school teacher who believed he was, himself, Jack The Ripper, and who,also, threw himself into The Thames! |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 4:35 pm: | |
John
Finding a parallel in reported emotions may be a red herring.
Unfortunately we have no word on the mental condition of MJD from anyone in good authority.
Most of what we know about MJD comes from his brother, William Druitt, and it was even suggested that this same brother may have been Macnaghtens "private sources" also.
I would think a man as well educated as William Druitt would be well enough aquainted with the symptoms to make a 'story' believable.
Like "All roads lead to Rome", as the saying goes, in this case, "All our sources 'may' lead back to William".
There may be absolutely nothing in this, William may be a perfectly honest and upstanding individual, but, much of what we know about the state of mind of MJD comes either from William or from the letter, said to be "found" by William, or from Macnaghtens "private sources", which could also have been William.
If (and I really mean, "IF") there could be found to have been some animosity between the brothers (would that be so strange?), then the suicide note becomes worthless the value of the suicide note is sorely diminished due to the circumstances in which it was found.
Regards, Jon |
John Ruffels
Police Constable
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 4:52 am: | |
Greetings Jon Smyth.I found your reasoning refreshing and logical.I had not considered a Cain and Able situation between the two brothers.
It would be quite easy to build up such a picture on the available evidence:Elder brother stuck in a (comparative) backwater as a senior partner in
a Christchurch/Bournemouth legal practice.Also a keen cricketer.Whilst his London-based brother dazzles on the cricket pitch;appears in cases sent up to him by his provincial brother's practise....London brother mentioned in THE TIMES.
Invitation to Prince of Wales ball at Canford...
But, to date, no documentary evidence, or family
legend points that way.
Although there IS the puzzling question of why William seemed unperturbed by his brother's absence from his chambers.At first anyway.
What was Montague Druitt going to do at Christmas?
was he going to carve the Christmas turkey as usual? (I made that bit up...sorry).
I alluded to the German school teacher's suicide
because of the parallels with Druitt school master, The Thames, unsound mind, believed he was JTR..)Other posters too wondered about Montague Druitt's state of mind at the time of his suicide.
In the absence of genuine material we must examine
similar cases.The Inquest files appear to be no more.
Sure, Montague Druitt's brother did utter a couple of "untruths" at the Inquest.But with respectability and family reputation a big consideration.Police even claimed "nothing more can be said on the matter as to do so would only bring further upset to the family of the deceased". |
Neil K. MacMillan
Police Constable
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 8:53 pm: | |
Good evening everybody:
Without proof, which at this stage would be suspect, we simply don't know. However, please allow me to play the devil's advocate.
Druitt left the note. That doesn't mean that he didn't flip flop with the decision. Let's face it,suicide is the biggest choice a person can make. If they actually go through with it, it's also their last. that in and of it self could account for the return ticket. As Geeper rightly pointed out, saying isn't doing. He may have bought the return ticket in a moment of indecision and later steeled himself for the act. He may well have drank or used laudnum to gather courage for the task at hand. (I'm not sure but I don't believe cocaine was readily available then. I may be wrong on that.)
Also, that he committed suicide doen't mean he was Jack the Ripper. His mother reputedly went insane and he had recently been let go from a teaching position at the school where he was employed. The inference was that he was somehow involved with a student but I have seen no documentation on that. Just a few points to ponder. A good evening to all. Neil |
Alice Looking
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 3:54 pm: | |
I'm of the ilk that the ticket was force of habit (when traveling, you purchase a return). This doesn't mean, necessarily that the suicide was spur of the moment. He might have planned it for years for all we know, but always managed to walk away from it.
I've never had much confidence in Druitt as a suspect just because of the shoddy work of Farson on this one. I think he's a fascinating character, but I don't think he had anything to do with the murders and his death is merely coincidental to the whole. |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 94
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 11:42 am: | |
I know this may be considered off topic but I found this strange precursor which brought to mind MJD's death. It is from News of the World (UK paper) dated 19 September 1886 and the suicide in question is of the assistant to Dr Sequeira, who we know well from the Whitehcapel case:
 |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 3:10 pm: | |
Hi, Chris:
I don't consider your posting off topic. In fact, I think most strange events of the era have some lessons to give us about the case. Certainly the mysterious 1886 drowning death of Dr. Everard Wood, assistant to Dr Sequeira, has a number of aspects about it that might bear upon the death of Montague Druitt, in wondering whether Druitt similarly might have been murdered or committed suicide.
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 101
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 6:16 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Many thanks for the comments.
I have found Francis Mason who took over as Sequeira's assistant in 1881 census. He was then living at 5 Brook Street. He is listed as Surgeon FRCSE
He is older than I imagined, born in 1838 in Islington.
Can't trace Everard Woods as yet but will persevere
Regards
Chris S |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 113
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 2:30 pm: | |
Hi all
I have found an intriguing newspaper report from 1927.
This report refers to the Ripper being a young student of surgery who died in the Thames. Unusually, this article names him. And that name is NOT Montague Druitt.
I am doing some more research on this individual and will post as soon as I have found anything, including the article in question
Chris |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 3:05 pm: | |
Sounds intriguing, Chris. I will await with interest your posting with the 1927 newspaper report.
Chris |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 53
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 3:50 pm: | |
Yes, it certainly does sound interesting. I'll be on the edge of my seat.
Wouldn't it be funny if, after all these years, Anderson's suspect was someone (not called Kosminski) who was committed to Broadmoor, and the "drowned doctor" was someone else (not called Druitt) who was really a surgeon himself, not the son of a surgeon!
Chris Phillips
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Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 114
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
Well guys I'm attaching the article but I'm still doing some work on the name. It's not one I've encountered before so I'm going to see what I can find out.
Decatur Review (Illinois) 26 December 1927
In an article about the kidnap and killing of Marian Parker by Hickman:
The fact that Hickman named one Andrew Cramer as the murderer of Marian Parker and the fact that the girl's body was mutilated and dismembered, were connected and given significance today by Milton Carlson, handwriting and expert criminologist.
Carlson pointed out that the youthful kidnapper of the slain girl admitted familiarity with the details of the life of Jesse james and the Loeb Leopold case. He suggested that possibly Hickman also had read of the Whitechapel murders in London in 1888. Several women were murdered and mutilated and the suspected murderer, a young student of surgery, although never caught, was found dead in the Thames river. His name was Andrew Kramer.
The criminologist declared it a trait of the criminal mind to unhesitatingly use an incident or name out of a case or report of which he had read much.
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Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 115
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 4:08 pm: | |
Here's the article in full in case you want to read the first bit:
 |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 116
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 4:12 pm: | |
Chris G and Chris P
Please have a look at the thread I have started under Suspects for Schulse and let me know if you know anything about him
Many thanks
Chris
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Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 4:33 pm: | |
I'm afraid I know nothing about Schulse.
Chris P |
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