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Ronald James Russo Jr.
Sergeant
Username: Vladimir
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 8:16 am: |       |
Leanne,
I work in as a technican in a first level helpdesk/point of contact for major corporations. I have to get on conference calls on average once a week, with Vice presidents of these corporations. I speak fluently and consisely when giving reports. I have no stutter, stammering or any other verbal disability. (The company I work for would not put me in the position I have if I could not get my point accross to the customer easily, stammering just makes the customer think you do not know exactly what you are speaking about) That being said, you get me to talk about my Mother and the night she passed into a coma and I stutter horribly. It gets to the point where I give up trying to tell people what happened. So according to you, it is my unknown stuttering problem that causes me to have stress only when I talk about my Mother. It would not be the memory of that day and the stress it causes that makes me stutter? And why does it only happen when talking about my Mom?
And Leanne, Do a search on Yahoo or google and look for Stress and Stuttering, you will find just as many pages that say that stress does affect stuttering.
Vlad |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 3:47 pm: | |
G'day Ally and James,
I must be a unique case!!! I should report myself to the medical profession, because I have never stuttered under stress! The only place I have seen that happen is on a cartoon. If I've hesitated before a word, I don't say anything!
LEANNE |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 3:54 pm: | |
Ally,
Thank-you! I've been trying to get the exact same point across and thought I was just being completely unclear. However, you've presented the information nicely and still Leanne won't let go of the speech impediment thing and even admit the possibility that Joe was simply nervous. She needs to prove he had some sort of speech impediment so she can make the claim he was schizophrenic. It used to be "echolalia" that Joe had, but nobody would buy that. Now it's stuttering she's pushing for. Since any speech impediment argument is based upon the same data that the "echolalia claim" was, one would think she'd realise that these claims are not going to be accepted any more than the first try.
Leanne, research is not about what you believe. We know you believe that Barnett is the one and we all accept that.
Research is not even about what is true because just because something is true doesn't mean we can recognise it as being true as apposed to being false.
Research is about what you can prove to be true, or prove to be false.
Simply being true isn't enough, and simply believing it to be true does not prove it to be true.
You must have evidence which supports your claims, and you must also present any evidence which does not support your claims. Simply presenting a few confirmatory statements from the web is not research. This is demonstrated by the very fact you are presenting statements which, as you've presented them, are refuted by example.
I've presented cases of students during public speaking, Dan and Vlad have each revealed very personal events, and each of these statements refute what you are claiming. And, as such, these prove your statements to be false. Each demonstrate that stress can and does produce errors of speech that resemble those made by people who stutter.
In other words Leanne, you can keep repeating in bold the same incorrect statements all you want, but that simple repetition does not make those statements any less false. They are wrong. And if you based your conclusion that Joe had a stutter on these statements, you are figuring that you can prove truth with falsehoods. I hope you can see that is not possible?
If you think Joe had some sort of speech impediment, then find some evidence that he stuttered, stammered, or repeated words from questions, at any other time other than his testimony at the inquest and of course, it would be best if the situation is one that would be hard pressed to call stressful. If he had a speech impediment, then this means under times of no stress he would still have this problem. So either prove that he did stutter/stammer/repeat outside of the inquest, or stop expecting people to suddenly accept an argument they've already told you they don't accept.
- Jeff
(Message edited by jeffhamm on March 22, 2004) |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Jeff,
Barnett's possible speech immpediment DOESN'T GEVEN GET A MENTION in mine and Richard's book!!!!
By saying that stress 'IS NOT THE CAUSE OF SPEECH DISORDERS', Ally was saying the exact same thing that I was!!!! If stress causes speech 'difluencies in regular speeking people', can you give us some examples? Because even the experts in this field say: 'THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE...'!!!!
LEANNE |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 393
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 4:44 pm: | |
Leanne.
I am not saying the same thing that you are. I have refuted everything that you have said.
YOu are saying that stress does not cause stuttering. You are wrong. You are using "speech disorder" websites to support your position and this is incorrect and not applicable. Stress does not cause "speech disorders". Stuttering is not limited specifically to "speech disordered" just as coughing is not limited to people with pneumonia. People who do not suffer from "speech disorders" can stutter under stress. People who stutter because of stress do not have a speech disorder, they have a stress reaction.
One more time in very simple English.
Stress can cause stuttering in the non-speech disordered.
Stress does not CAUSE SPEECH DISORDERS.
Barnett could very well have stuttered under the stress of having to give inquest testimony and not suffered from a speech disorder.
 |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 394
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 5:00 pm: | |
Jeff,
I swear it's like walking through glue.
Leanne,
One more point, one more time. Your experts are all experts who deal with the speech disordered. They are not talking about regular non-disordered people and the habits of speech that the non-disordered exhibit.
|
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 279
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 6:10 pm: | |
Leanne,
I have given you examples.
Dan has given you an example.
Vlad has given you an example.
You have been given examples of stress and/or nervousness causing normally fluent speakers to talk exactly as Barnett is reported to have talked while in a circumstance that would induce both stress and nervousness. I'm not going to repeat them only to have you apparently not read them yet again.
I have also pointed out that these instances are not "speech impediments" because they only occur under these specific emotional circumstances. Ally has gone to great lengths to try and present this very point in an understandable way. She's done a much better job that I, but you still seem to be missing the point.
I have also pointed out, as has Ally, that to be considered a "speech impediment" in the clinical sense (which is what your websites are talking about), that these speech errors have to occur under non-stressed, non-nervous, situations.
All your websites are saying, which nobody here is disputing, is that if you are put under a highly stressful situation you will not develop a "long lasting speech impediment" that will continue to disrupt your speech for the rest of your life.
That means just because someone has a speech impediment you should not conclude they are likely to have experienced some major traumatic event in their past history. Stuttering or stammering doesn't indicate some horrible past stressful event must have occurred. It does not mean what you want it to mean. It does not mean that stress/nervousness will not cause speech disruptions temporarily in normal speakers.
And, I don't care if Barnett's speech impediment is or is not in your book. But, you are continuing to push this point here, and here is where I'm addressing it. You are one of the most prolific posters on the site, and you present your arguments strongly. Nothing wrong with that by itself. But it's important not to push incorrect information because it would be nice if people who visited this site to find out about the case aren't overwhelmed with even more invalid conclusions being pushed as "proven facts". And that's what you are doing on this occasion. You've proven nothing, you're completely misinterpreting the information you have. You are ignoring the information in the posts that demonstrate your claim to be false (you ask me to give examples when you've already been given examples from at least 3 separate posters). And, despite Ally's very clear posts, you continue to interpret them completely opposite to what they actually say.
Barnett is worth investigating. But that doesn't give us the liberty to force the evidence through misinterpretation to try and make the case look more supported than it is. If the evidence is just not there, then it's just not there.
- Jeff |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:51 am: | |
Leanne,
First of all, let's get with the program here, we are no talking about stuttering, according to your article we are talking about STAMMERING. My first impression of STAMMERING is that it is exactly what happens when you try to ask a cute girl out or a give a speech in front of class.
STAMMERING is generally accepted as exactly what I just stated. STAMMERING is not a speech disorder and I believe it is always associated with streess and nervousness. STAMMERING is what your source said that Barnett was doing.
So stop talking about stuttering, because that is not what the article said. I know it would make a great point for your case, but it does not say stuttering, so stop changing it to make your FBI profile work.
Tim |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 396
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 8:13 pm: | |
Hi Tim,
Stammering and stuttering are used interchangeably. I believe that stammering is the official UK word for stuttering.
Cheers,
Ally
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:20 am: | |
G'day Ripperhistorian,
STUTTERING and STAMMERING are the same thing! "STUTTERING" is a term used in America and Australia that means exactly the same as "STAMMERING" does in the UK and Europe! What did you think the differences were?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:32 am: | |
G'day Jeff,
When I asked for examples, I meant Websites or a reference to books that state what you are trying to say! Or could I perhaps have an example like:
CONRONER: "Did she express fear of anyone in particular?"
BARNETT:"Ffffear of aaaaanyone in particular?......Nnnnno sir!"
JEFF: "Stuttering or stammering doesn't indicate some horrible past stressful event must have occured." Yet I thought you were arguing that Barnett was so stressed that he stuttered?????
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 966
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 4:42 am: | |
I don't know who this helps, if anyone, but I found the following web site on stuttering and stammering (which are one and the same).
http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&con=101#q1
Hope that helps with something, anything.
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 5:19 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
Thanks for that link. I have been looking at links about 'Stammering', Stress', 'Post Traumatic Stress' and 'Schizophrenia', as I did yesterday, to show Alley that I am not stuck on 'speech impediment'. NICE TRY THOUGH! (But not as good as telling me to do a comprehension course!)
I have yet to find evidence that stuttering is experienced by healthy people under stress. Can anyone point me to a Website that states this?
I did find this about 'stuttering': 'It is very rare for it to occur in an adolescent or adult who has no history, even a brief one, of childhood stuttering. Except for cases where it results from brain damage, no physical basis can normally be found for the disorder'.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2602/0005/2602000510/p1/article.jhtml
LEANNE |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 397
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 6:34 am: | |
Leanne,
If you had taken that remedial comprehension course, you might have picked up on the word "disorder" in that sentence which once again proves that they are talking about people suffering from a fluency disorder and not the normal patterns of regular speakers.
From http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/stuttering.htm
"What differentiates stutterers from non stutterers is the frequency of their disfluency and/or the severity of their disfluency."
This indicates that all people stutter from time to time, what marks a stutterer is the frequency. As I have pointed out to you time and time again.
From ASHA, http://www.asha.org/public/speech/disorders/stuttering.htm
"Stuttering is a disorder of speech fluency that interrupts the forward flow of speech. All individuals are disfluent at times, but what differentiates the person who stutters from someone with normal speech disfluencies is the kind and amount of the disfluencies."
|
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 398
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 6:53 am: | |
From several Public Speaking websites:
"Without a clear idea about where they were going in their speeches, they were afraid of stammering or freezing or rambling or repeating or frantically shuffling through disorganized notecards."
"Ten Benefits of Stress Management
1. Reduce Tension (e.g. stammering) in Public Speaking "
"Stop expecting hiccups like stammering, fumbling or speechlessness"
Every website I went to about effective public speaking has something to say about stammering. Now considering everyone who gives a speech doesn't have a disfluency disorder, why in the world would all these websites discuss stammering/stuttering as a particular fear? Probably because at least one person in every class develops a stammer when having to give a speech.
Of course Leanne lives in Australia where apparently they have never heard of fear of public speaking or a spontaneous stutter under stress.
I could find more but I am bored.
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 968
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 7:22 am: | |
Ally/Leanne,
From http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1030998a.html I found the following:-
Stuttering (or stammering) is of two types, developmental and acquired. Acquired stuttering may follow a head injury or other brain lesion, such as a stroke. Developmental stuttering is much more common, and does seem to be influenced -- but probably not caused -- by stress or anxiety.
So it suggests that stuttering is influenced by such things as stress or anxiety but "probably" not caused by either. There is a difference here and I think personally that you are both right to an extent.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I have interpreted both your ideas as follows:-
Leanne is saying that stress does not cause stuttering which appears to be correct, judging from the above quote.
Yet, Ally says that stuttering can appear when someone is stressed, which is also correct because, as the above quote says, stress can influence it.
Please forgive me if I got any of that wrong.
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 8:02 am: | |
Ally,
The first quote you gave does NOT indicate or prove that ALL people stutter from time to time. I have never sssstuttered, nor have any of my friends or family. I am assuming that we fit into the category of "all people".
Your second quote tells me that all people at times are DISFLUENT, (not graceful, hesitant, too-fast), in their speech. Stuttering is just one example of speech disfluency. Then it says that the difference between someone who stutters and someone who doesn't, (like me), is the KIND and frequency of the speech errors, (ie they use a fluency error other that stuttering).
This argument is really starting to frustrate me, so I'll back-away and think of the holiday I am going on next week. This DOES NOT mean that you have won the argument.
LEANNE |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 399
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 8:23 am: | |
Sarah,
No. You have misunderstood just like Leanne has misunderstood. There are people who have speech disorders. They either acquire these at the onset of language acquisition or they acquire them through trauma later in life but in both those cases you are referring to people with language disorders.
People without any type of language disorder CAN STUTTER UNDER STRESS. There doesn't need to be a medical study to show it because simpy living in the world will show you that on occasion, people will stammer when they are stressed.
Leanne,
If you cannot see that "all people" is what is referred to as a generalization of language, then there is absolutely no hope whatsoever that anyone could ever hope to have a logical conversation with you and expect you to get anything out of it.
I have taken hours upon boring hours of speech/language disorders courses. I have explained to you what disfluency is. The disfluency of a stutterer (someone who stutters all the time) compared to the disfluecncy of someone who is not a stutterer (has a low incidence of frequency of stuttering) is what the second quote is talking about. You are simply clinging to your false beliefs and stubborn insistence that you are right despite all evidence to the contrary and there is no rational argument that will sway you because you are not acting rationally.
Thank you for informing me that I haven't won the argument. Once again, you are wrong, but as I said, the irrational can't be convince by logic so do go on thinking that.
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 8:43 am: | |
Ally,
I said I wouldn't respond anymore, but I haven't gone to bed yet!
I know that "all people" refers to a everyone who can speak! But aren't I one? It seems to me that YOU are confused by what we are arguing here! In an earlier post I threw a fact at you, and you then threw the exact same fact back at me, claiming it was yours. ie: "Stress does not cause speech disorders."
LEANNE |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1349
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 8:57 am: | |
Ally,
Breath, breath, inhale... count to ten.... there you go, good girl 
Carry on, all; this is incredibly entertaining.
Leanne, et al:
I myself have never stuttered under stress, but I know people who have done so in certain situations, and they do not have a speech impediment or some sort of disorder. We are all individuals and are coping with stress in different ways, without necessarily having a disorder.
I, for example, bite my finger-nails (Yes, Ally, it's true!)
"Thank you, that is all."
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 402
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 9:09 am: | |
Leanne,
When you were in school, did they teach you reading comprehension? Did they teach you about generalities of language? People constantly say, "everyone does so and so", "everyone has experienced so and so" when of course not everyone will have done so and so. This is a generalization. The above generalization that everyone has speech disfluency is meant to point out that people who do not have a speech disorder will stammer under stress but for people who do have speech disorders that present as daily stammering, STRESS IS NOT THE CAUSE.
BUT
STRESS CAN CAUSE STUTTERING IN THE NON-DISORDERED
Let me repeat that for you and then go back and read Vlad's account, which you have skippped right on over and Glenn's and everyone else here who has posted an example of how stress caused them to stutter when they do not have a speech disorder.
STRESS CAN CAUSE STUTTERING IN THE NON-DISORDERED
STRESS CAN CAUSE STUTTERING IN THE NON-DISORDERED
STRESS CAN CAUSE STUTTERING IN THE NON-DISORDERED
I don't know why I think that if I keep repeating myself something will penetrate the bone.
STRESS CAN CAUSE STUTTERING IN THE NON-DISORDERED
STRESS CAN CAUSE STUTTERING IN THE NON-DISORDERED
And I still don't like squash so there.
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 970
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 9:27 am: | |
Ally,
I don't see how I have misunderstood. You basically repeated what I said when I said that you were right. That above quote that I used says that stress can influence stuttering but stress doesn't cause stuttering. I am agreeing with you. Stress does not CAUSE it but it does INFLUENCE it.
There is a difference in the words "cause" and "influence".
I was only quoting from a page about stuttering, not as a disorder.
Sarah
P.S I've never stuttered. I do say "um" a lot though when under stress.
(Message edited by Sarah on March 23, 2004) |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 404
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 9:47 am: | |
Sarah,
Any web page that is devoted to stuttering is talking about stuttering as a disorder. Trust me when I say this. You will find that the page is either sponsered by a psych association, a medical association, or a community of people who live with stuttering on a daily basis. Therefore, any information you get from a "stuttering website" page is about people who suffer from stuttering on an ongoing basis and have done so from childhood or a precipitating event. These websites will always emphasize that stress does not cause stuttering because for them, it does not. Their stuttering has a medical cause. Stress aggrevates a condition that they already have.
In the past, because it was widely known that regular speaking people stutter when stressed and only when stressed, it was assumed that anyone who suffered from a stuttering disorder were simply high-strung/nervous people who were stressed out all the time. So now, all websites on stuttering indicate that stress does not cause stuttering--but they are all referring only to the medical condition of stuttering, not what occurs in regular people when they are stressed.
|
Ronald James Russo Jr.
Sergeant
Username: Vladimir
Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 10:23 am: | |
Ally,
Goos Fraba, Goos Fraba, Goos Fraba.
Keep saying that and count backwards from ten. In the nose out the mouth.
Leanne,
To put it simply, Barnett could have stuttered/stammered and not had any kind of disorder. He could have been an average Joe (Pun intended) caught up in a stressful situation and that was the only time he stuttered/Stammered. We have absolutely NO evidence that he ever stuttered or stammered ever, before or after his testimony.
Sarah,
Saying umm alot when stressed is not far from stuttering and is considered stammering where I come from.
So until we have proof that Barnett stuttered/stammered or repeated the last thing said to him on a regular basis, we can not say he had ANY disorder what-so-ever.
Goos Fraba Goos Fraba Goos Fraba.
Just some thoughts from a very relaxed and non stuttering Vlad
<edited for clarity>
(Message edited by vladimir on March 23, 2004) |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 972
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 10:58 am: | |
Ally/Vlad,
Stammering is the same as stuttering.
I'm not saying he had a disorder, I'm just trying to find examples of people stuttering under stress.
In my mind, and this may seem to contradict other things I have said because I've had another look and re-thought some stuff, I think people do occasionally stutter when under stress, although this doesn't mean that they have the disorder of stuttering because stress doesn't cause the disorder but it can make a normal speaking person stutter under stress.
Hope that made sense.
Sarah |
|
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