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  | Archive through March 29, 2004 | CB | 25 | 1 | 3-29-04 6:50 am |
| Archive through March 30, 2004 | Jeff Hamm | 25 | 1 | 3-30-04 11:10 pm |
| Archive through April 01, 2004 | Shannon Christopher | 25 | 1 | 4-01-04 3:03 pm |
| Archive through April 02, 2004 | Shannon Christopher | 25 | 1 | 4-02-04 6:21 am |
| Archive through April 04, 2004 | Frank van Oploo | 25 | 1 | 4-04-04 5:05 am |
| Archive through April 08, 2004 | Richard Brian Nunwee | 25 | 1 | 4-08-04 4:28 am |
| Archive through April 10, 2004 | Glenn L Andersson | 25 | 1 | 4-10-04 8:11 am |
| Archive through April 12, 2004 | Glenn L Andersson | 25 | 1 | 4-12-04 6:59 pm |
| Archive through April 14, 2004 | CB | 25 | 1 | 4-14-04 6:02 am |
| Archive through April 16, 2004 | Jeff Hamm | 25 | 1 | 4-16-04 5:06 pm |
| Archive through April 19, 2004 | Ally | 25 | 1 | 4-19-04 4:15 pm |
| Archive through April 20, 2004 | Brian W. Schoeneman | 25 | 1 | 4-20-04 2:52 pm |
| Archive through April 22, 2004 | Leanne Perry | 25 | 1 | 4-22-04 8:49 am |
| Archive through April 23, 2004 | Leanne Perry | 25 | 1 | 4-23-04 4:04 am |
| Archive through April 24, 2004 | Harry Mann | 25 | 1 | 4-24-04 4:24 am |
| Archive through April 26, 2004 | Richard Brian Nunwee | 25 | 1 | 4-26-04 3:26 pm |
| Archive through April 28, 2004 | Sarah Long | 25 | 1 | 4-28-04 5:15 am |
| Archive through May 02, 2004 | Jeff Hamm | 25 | 1 | 5-02-04 4:51 pm |
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| Author |
Message |
    
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 9:27 pm: |       |
Hi Richard,
Thanks for takeing the time to respond to my post. I dont know why Cox is believed over some of the other wittnesses. I suspect that it is because of her being a neighbor of the vitum. She would have known Kelly and would not have made a misidentification. Her story seemed to be backed up by other people who heard Mary singing that night. I believe that Mary was described as a loud drunk. I believe I read that there was a Catherine Prichet who wanted to complain about Kelly's singing. So I imagine that she was really going off. This was about 12:30.
I have never read about the story that Cox told her neice. I imagine it originated from her neice? I guess the question is should we believe the neice? I have my own ripper suspect that I support. The problem is he doese not match the describtion given by any of the witnesses. So in order to cling to this possibility I have often thought that the police may have withheld on purpose certain details that they did not want leaked to the press. An example of this may be the fact that Inspector Dew claimed the man that Cox saw Kelly with had a beard.
I tend to believe Cox. I am not sure if the man that she saw Kelly with was the ripper. I have a hard time believeing that the ripper would of hung out with her for an Hour and a halve before killing her. Assumeing the ripper was not interested in sex. What was holding him back? She must have been one hell of a dancer or she gave great shoulder rubs. I dont believe she was that great of a singer.
ALL THE BEST,CB |
Busy Beaver
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 4:45 am: | |
In the Michael Cane, Lewis Collins Ripper TV show, Mary's singer was portrayed as being nice but rather loud- in fact loud enough to wake up the entire neighbourhood. considering how small Miller's court would have been, I find it rather surprising that all of the neighbours who were home on the night/morning of the murder didn't get up and complain. I think Jeff is on to something as by this time "ole blotchy" would be getting quite bored by the whole show. I do think Mary entertained this chap and then went out into the streets again, where she unfortunatley met up with Jack. |
Nina Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:49 am: | |
Hi Jeff,
Just thought I'd clear up the question about the chemise that mjk wore. It was commonly worn as an undergarment. As mjk probably had very little clothing.I believe that she would sleep either fully clothed which would not be very comfortable or in the chemise.
I found this link that has an excellent example.
http://www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/testdb1.php?index=187020
Nina |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 376
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:20 am: | |
Hi Nina,
Thanks for that info. That corrects my previous assumption that a chemise was a nightgown type thing. That could change things a bit. I'll have to review some of my previous posts to see if some of the arguments place too much emphasis on the idea that the chemise would not have been something she was already wearing.
I know of at least one argument I've made which is greatly weakened by this. And that's the idea that she would have had to get naked and then redressed in front of Joe. If she only had to remove her outer clothes, then if they were not in an antagonistic relationship at this point, she might not be as adverse to doing that.
- Jeff |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1095
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 5:06 am: | |
Leanne,
By 'comfortable' I mean, with each other. I think they argues like every couple but on the whole were happy together until Joe lost his job. Mary was probably happy until Joe's money drained away.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to 
Smile too much and the world will guess  |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Busy,
There has been a lot of discussion about the folding of Mary Kelly's clothes- Jack may well have folded them as a "good deed" just as he neatly laid out the posessions of Annie Chapman.
Man, dont start that again !
Monty
Our little group has always been and always will until the end... |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1320
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 3:17 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
If Mary and Joe lived together harmoniously, their relationship was punctuated by frequent and sometimes heated rows, most likely started by Mary Kellys drinking habits.
JULIA VENTURNEY: 'I have frequently seen her the worse for drink, but when she was cross Joe Barnett would go out and leave her to quarrel alone.'
ELIZABETH PHEONIX: when she was drunk she was: 'very quarrelsome and abusive.'
JOHN MCCARTHY: 'when in drink she had more to say.'
LEANNE
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1321
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 3:54 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
I'd pay any price to have a list of the nights/mornings Barnett left a drunk Mary, where he went and how he released his frustration.
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 9:27 am: | |
Leanne,
I agree that they had arguments but it doesn't say that they were arguing all the time. Julia Venturney said she was frequently drunk but that doesn't mean that every time she was drunk she argued with Joe.
I would also love to know if had any sort of alibi's for all the other murders. Of course, if asked after Mary's murder he could easily say that he had been with Mary now that she was dead.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
cb
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 4:32 pm: | |
HI Sarsha and Leanne,
I am sorry to inform you but Mary Kelly was a prostitute just like any ohter She would hve dressed in front of a snake if she had to.
All the bset cb |
Harry Mann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 5:48 am: | |
In the photograph of Kelly,we see her lying atop of bedclothes.Bond states she was probably stabbed through the corner of the sheet.Now would this be the sheet she was lying on,and therefor part of the under bed clothes,or a sheet that one would naturally expext to find as an over cover.
The outer,or covering bed clothes are not in evidence in the photo,unless it is rhe bundle barely visible at the left foot of the bed.Surely even Kelly would have had under and over coverings,so wearing just a chemise to bed was quite logical.
So if she was in bed at the time of the initial attack,isn,t it more likely that she would have been stabbed through the covering sheet,and not the under sheet.Where is the covering sheet?. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1322
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
G'day Sarah,
An argument every night is not what I'm thinking of. (especially not during the month of October).
We can never know if Joe had solid, rock-hard alibis for the nights of all the murders because we lack a transcript of his interrogation, but think, what could they have been to completely eliminate him as a killer?....."I was at Spitalfields Market", "I was at St. James fruit market", "I was looking for work."? All such excuses could have put him near all murder sights, at the appropriate times.
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 5:32 am: | |
CB,
And your proof of this is?
I'm sorry, but just because you think of prostitutes as one type of person, it doesn't mean that all of them were exactly the same. Anyway, I agree with Leanne that, maybe if Joe had come back bringing with him money then she may have undressed, but if he was peniless then I just don't see it. He had left her and she was sick of him. He also hated prostitution and so I doubt he would have enticed her to remove her clothing for him in a "business" type way.
Maybe that's what pushed him over the edge finally, he offered her money and she became willing to strip off in front of him and he felt enraged by the fact that even he had to resort to offering her money.
I don't know, I feel like I'm wittering on here. Hope any of that makes sense.
Leanne,
I doubt he would have given excuses that placed him near the murder sites, but I would find it strange for him to exactly remember where he was on a particular night though. If he had an excuse ready and gave it instantly when the police asked then I found find that suspect. I wish we just had the transcript. It's a shame. Of course he could have always said that he had been with Mary on those nights.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1323
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:14 pm: | |
Sarah,
The best days for street-sellers to be out making money fell on the weekend and the Ripper victims were all murdered on weekends.
A Victorian London Website said of COVENT GARDEN MARKET ('The great fruit, vegetable, and herb market of London'): 'Saturday is the best day' (Peter Cunningham 1850).
Of PETTICOAT LANE (A Victorian London street market): 'Petticoat Lane on a Sunday morning will give the most vivid idea of the greed of gain, or the hard struggle to make a living...' (Richard Rowe 1881).
If Barnett was with Mary in the early morning hours on weekends, it's no wonder he couldn't earn alot of money!
LEANNE |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 863
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 2:46 pm: | |
Hi,
Refering to Mary kelly, she according to Walter Dew, never wore a bonnet/hat, during the daytime sightings.
I have noticed a report, that Elizabeth Prater, spoke to kelly on the evening of the 8th november, she was wearing her normal black velvet jacket, and a hat.
Clearly this was night time attire only, this may give further credence to Maxwell sightings in daylight hours , even though it was raining she was hatless.
Richard. |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Hi Richard,
I believe that Cox stated at the inquest that Kelly was not wearing a hat and that was around 12:30 at night.
Just another quote from Dew,
" The doctors were unable to because of the terrible mutilations, to say with any certainty just when death took place but they were very emphatic that the girl could not have been alive at eight o'clock that morning.
All the best,CB |
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