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brad kelley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 11:44 am: | 
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hi all new to subject and this board,while reading suspects section bury while not a glamorous suspect really did jump out at me, he doesn't really seem to get that much "play" on this site, apart from the fact that abberline interviewed him and evidently didn't pursue him as suspect (which certainly hasn't persuaded people hutchinson is innocent)is there any other evidence that makes him a bad suspect, because as a newbie with no realy preconceived notions as to the rippers identity he sure seems move viable than say sickert or maybrick. any thought welcome. btw that picture of george chapman sure looks evil he sure seems to fit description, and lived at george yard... |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 7:05 am: |
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I kind of like Bury. He definitely seems more likely then a whole host of supposed suspects given a lot of play time on these boards. I'd put him above D'Onston, Barnett, Tumblety, Cutbush and so forth. I don't know if he'd make my top ten but he'd have to be up there somewhere. The main thing, to me, that counts against him is the distance away from Whitechapel. |
Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 6:04 am: |
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I too like Bury, except one has to explain the 'de-escalation' after MJK. Of course he may have felt differently about his wife. He'd certainly have had plenty of reasons to be out at all hours and probably fits 'shabby-genteel'.
I think though, with Hutchinson, while the police may have believed him for a time, they soon dropped him. They seemed pretty convinced that Bury was not their man and they don't seem to have changed that opinion.
Regards
Pete |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:59 am: |
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I agree; I kinda like Bury as well. The mutilation, the "Jack the Ripper scrabble" outside his home, Abberline's interest in him etc.
But like Dan says, he resided outside of Whitechapel and I can't say I find Beadle's explanation (or rather ignorance) of that fact especially convincing. And as Pete points out, after a while the police seem to have discounted him anyway (although that of course doesen't automatically have to indicate anything).
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 9:58 pm: |
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Did Bury live in Scotland? He was hanged there, but did he live there? If he did live in Scotland at the times of the murders, then I would find it hard pressed to think that he came all the way to whitechapel just to hack up a few hookers. Best Regards.
Paul |
Jim DiPalma
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jimd
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 1:18 pm: |
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Hi Paul,
It's been years since I read the Beadle's book on Bury, but as I recall he resided in Bow at the time of the murders. I'm not 100% familiar with the geography of the area, but I think Bow was just outside walking distance from Whitechapel, but easily reached if one had access to a pony and cart, as Bury reportedly did.
Personally, while Bury is a believable suspect, the biggest problem I had with Beadle's theory is the pony and cart business. As I recall, according to Beadle, Bury used the pony and cart to conduct his business as a sawdust salesman in Whitechapel, stabled the pony in George Yard while committing the murders (no evidence given to support that point), and sold the pony and cart after the murder of MJK. It was even used to explain the lull in October - too foggy to drive, dontcha know? :-)
Best to all,
Jim |
Laura Sage
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 9:50 am: |
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Dear All,
I've a few ideas on this area which are slightly radical but are within the bounds of probabilty. Bury killed his wife Ellen in Dundee as we know, but if you look at a map of 1888 London you can see Whitechapel Road leading to Bow, most likely his route into Whitechapel.
Now here comes the radical bit. What if MJK wasn't killed by Jack but was killed by Barnett or Hutchinson. The amount of facial mutilation suggests the victim was known to her attacker and the fact that after he had killed her the face was hidden by a sheet (This was in a coroners report in one of Wilson's books I think). The fright Bury would have got that someone else had killed and he was being blamed for it would have been enough for him to cease for a while, then he tries to move away after getting the rest of his wife's money. When she is of no more 'use' to him he isolates her and disposes of her. What does anyone else think? |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2309
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 9:28 am: |
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Laura,
I think your ideas are quite worth considering and very interesting.
I would put Bury there up the among the top five suspects, and I myself am very doubtful about Mary Kelly being a Ripper victim -- yes, it's radical, but also very much plausible.
As I said, ideas quite well worth considering.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Tim
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
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i also like Bury alot, in fact. as of right now, i consider him the most likely of all the suspects i know. everything fits with him. and as for the argument "the police at the time didn't consider him a suspect" this is a VERY common mistake police do, even in these modern times. jeff dahmer, gacy, possibly the zodiac...all have been questioned and realesed.
just one thing i'd like to know...
where exactly was this supposed sawdust shop and or cat meat shop? i understand it was in the east end, but what street? |
Steve Turner
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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Hi all, One of the strongest points in favour of
Bury as the Ripper, IMHO are the mutilations he
inflicts upon Ellen Bury,almost identical to Eddowes, and the same mutilation of the sex organs, as both Eddowes, and Chapman.We have in Bury, a real life Psychopatic woman killer/hater,
who lived in Whitechapel at the time of the murders, left shortly after MJK murder,and lied
about his reasons for leaving. so much more persuasive than any Royal, or mad Doctor. |
Matfelon
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 7:30 am: |
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Tim,
you've forgot Peter Sutcliffe, they questioned him twice, if I remember it correctly.
Mr Turner,
I totally agree with you. 
...and there's this new book coming out in August:
The Case of William Bury
by Euan Macpherson
Was Jack the Ripper put on trial for murder in Dundee in March, 1889? A shocking and brutal murder had taken place in the city on 5 February that year, and the words 'Jack Ripper is at the back of this door' were found written in chalk on a door at the scene of the crime. When he was arrested, the accused admitted that he was 'afraid he would be arrested as Jack the Ripper'. The police investigation uncovered some disturbing details. The accused was a small dark-haired man who was known to have been violent towards women. He had been born and brought up in the Midlands but had moved to the East End of London in the late autumn of 1887. On 21 January 1889, he and his wife travelled by boat to Dundee. This meant that he had arrived in London before the start of the Jack the Ripper murders and had left around the same time that they ceased. Could this be coincidence, people wondered? Could it also be a coincidence that the murder in Dundee carried all the hallmarks of a 'ripper' murder? In the month before the trial, the local newspapers in Dundee began to run sensational stories linking the accused with the notorious Whitechapel murders. When the trial opened to a packed courtroom, many in the public gallery were wondering if the man standing in the dock was none other than Jack the Ripper himself. In this sensational and groundbreaking book, Euan Macpherson presents the evidence that the long arm of the law really did catch up with Jack the Ripper... in a dingy basement flat in Dundee in the cold winter months of early 1889.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/
1845960114/qid=1120389886/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_11_4/
202-4222411-3651808
Sounds interesting! |
steve turner
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
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Mr Matfelon.Thanks for the endorsment. I am currently presenting a seminar paper on Mr Bury at educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.phpAny contribution from yourself, or other casebook members would be very welcome. Regards Steve. |
Martin Anderson
Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Dear Dan,
I appreciate your comment was made quite a while ago but I had to reply. You say you would put Bury above Cutbush, Tumblety and D'Onsten and yet he wouldn't make your top 10 - what does he have to do?
OK I see that you base all your suspects on circumstantial evidence and rightly so. But did you realise that Bury lived in Whitechapel at the time of the murders and moved out immediately when they stopped?
I admit they I really am intrigued by this man although little evidence appears to have survived to connect him directly. Oh well. Welcome to the world of ripperology.
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 827
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
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Hi Martin,
Well, it's more that I don't have a top ten thought up and am really trying not to make one. I've seen lots of people stop being rational about things when they switched from thinking about the case in general to supporting one or more suspects. (Of course there are some people who never even had the "thinking about the case in general" stage and hopped straight to picking a suspect without knowing anything. Like, say... No, I shouldn't name anyone. Cough-cough-Cornwell-cough. Ahem.)
Regarding the distances thing, I'm not sure where I got that. Somewhere (I think here on this site somewhere, but with all the pages and past posts it might be hard to pull up again if it was here) someone said Bury had lived somewhere where it would have taken him and his cart several hours to get from his home to the appropriate part of town. Of course the more I read through various sources the more I find lots of other things presented as true elsewhere that just aren't. It's like a minefield out there.
My main thing is that I really haven't seen any reason to dismiss him out of hand, like so many people seem to do. I'm planning on reading up more on Bury at some point. Hopefully I'll be getting that new book that's supposed to be coming out this month.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Martin Anderson
Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:10 am: |
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Hi Dan,
Agreed totally - most people who jumped straight to one suspect live in a world of fantasy and display a total lack of knowledge of the case as a whole.
Bury however interests me after initially being brushed aside.
Apparently there's a good book out by William Beadle 'Anatomy of a Myth' and another by Euan Macpherson on the subject. To which book do you refer or is it another one? Hopefully it will reveal some new evidence.
Regards
Martin
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3898
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:35 am: |
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Hi dan and Martin,
Although I try to be a bit cautious about jumping into the 'suspect hunt', I as well see no real reason to dismiss Bury; in my view he is one of the more relevant suspects out there, for what it's worth.
Unfortunately I have only read Beadle's book - which is excellent, and although it, like all suspect-oriented literature, is quite biased, it is also contains very good analyses of the case as a whole and very well researched. Not to mention that it is a very entertaining read.
The only criticism I have of his book, is that the typeface is terrible and that it contains no pictures.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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David G Burns
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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I will be recieving my advance copy of the forthcoming book the trial of jack the ripper
tommorrow.
I drew the illustrations for the book, anyone requiring info about the illutrations contact me through my website www.freewebs.com/burnsartwork |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
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Hi everyone, I have just finished reading the MacPherson-Bury book. For anyone thinking of obtaining a copy, this is an excellent book, well written and researched. Anyone who has read any of my own Ripper books will be aware that Bury has always been my favoured Ripper suspect. I was a little disappointed there was not a photo of Bury in the book, only a sketch from the Dundee Courier. Some photos of Bury are reported to exist, and it would interesting to see what he actually looked like. When I first saw the photo on the cover, I assumed that it was one of Bury, unfortunately it turned out to be Lieutenant James Parr. Without wishing to spoil this book for anyone, there is an unintentionally funny chapter where MacPherson suggests to us that Elizabeth Long simply mistook the accent of the man in the company of Annie Chapman shortly before she was murdered, as not that of a foreigner, but instead that of a person from the midlands. Why does MacPherson suggest this? because Bury spoke with a midlands accent. Has this book however convinced me that Bury was Jack the Ripper - unfortunately not. |
lavaughn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
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Hello all.
I thought the same thing, Christopher. The book is well-written, argues the case very cogently and MacPherson admits it when he is "supposing" rather than just attempting to twist the facts to support his suspect. However, the chapter about Elizabeth Long bothered me as well. What constituted a "foreigner" in the East End? Wasn't it merely code for "Jewish" at this time? If so, Long mistook a Midlands accent for a Jewish/German one. Is this very likely? I think the book is better than Beadle's as it actually attempts to prove that Bury was in Whitechapel at the time of the murders.
Still, why the move to Dundee? I know Kurten moved around a bit and his wife went along--the idea of moving for a job would sit well with most spouses at the time. But Beadle as well as MacPherson argue for the use of the cart in the crimes. Yet MacPherson states over and over that Bury hardly worked and drank most of his wife's savings away. Did he just walk around with the cart? MacPherson also states that Bury would drop off a load of sawdust, then stand and drink all day--explaining the possession of the cart. I know that Dahmer could drink a lot and still commit the crimes, but someone out in public, with a great deal of risk, to perform the mutilations he did and still have enough sense to get away quickly--I think this argues against an intoxicated individual. Dahmer had time and ample opportunity in his own apartment, something the Ripper did not. Oh well, doesn't mean he committed the crimes on the nights he drank, does it? Still, he was known as an inveterate boozer.
Bury is one of those suspects I've never heard completely or thoroughly refuted. The police didn't seem too interested in him, but why not? After picking up all the suspects they did, why did Bury miss being scrutinized? Especially if he was in the area at the time?
Oh, and please save us from the message-writers. "Jack Ripper lives at this door" and so on. I believe you'd be hard-pressed not to find graffiti relating to the Ripper anywhere in the UK at this time when murder was suspected/perpetrated. MacPherson says that Bury wrote it...what? Why? Because he was too lazy to mail a letter? |
steve turner
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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Hi iavaughn lest we forget most of the East End residents were more or less drunk most nights of the week, another drunken cart driver would have caused no suspicion at all, I see alcohol abuse as the "driver" to these crimes,(1)It lowers inhibition, (2)it helps to set free the rage inside the man. lets also not forget that Bury was infected(and had infected Ellen in turn) with venerial disease,almost certainly picked up from a prositute. Add in his chronic low self esteem, and pathological hatred of women, and I believe we have a real suspect. |
john lockett
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 11:02 am: |
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Hi lavaughn.
I think that Bury's move up to Dundee (which always struck me as odd) is explained in the MacPherson book by the fact that London and Dundee were prominent centres in the Jute trade and that maybe Bury knew people in London in that trade and hence picked up on the idea of moving to Dundee. Makes sense on some levels I suppose.
After having not long completed MacPherson's book I'm still convinced that Bury is a very worthy JtR candidate.
I like the idea that a Londoner would take a Midlands accent as foreign too. People think my particular Midlands drawl is "alien" anyway.
Did regional accents in the 19th century sound very different from nowadays? |
Ken Proctor
Detective Sergeant
Username: Gizmo
Post Number: 119
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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Hello All, The graffiti "Jack Ripper is at the back of this door" was evidently found on the inside door of William and Ellens flat, after he had been taken in to custody.According to Euan Macpherson, no-one, other than William and the police had access to the flat. The signifigance of this can hardly be equated to prankster graffiti assosciated with the times. William's use of a wheelbarrow to ply his trade surely opens a lot of scenarios, the Pinchin Street torso comes to mind. 
" Don't be reckless with other people's hearts. Don't put up with people who are reckless wih yours." Baz Luhrman
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Eddie Grayson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |
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This is purely conjecture, im no expert, but I cant help but see a likeness with Bury's sketch and what Im led to believe is Abberline's retirement present!
../4924/13776.html"#C6C6B5"> |
Eddie Grayson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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more conjecture,
Ive just compared the handwriting from the 'from hell' letter with the graffitti in Burys basement and it looks strikingly simular to me a layman. (the slanting and single letters and small words look almost identical, The 'thes' in particular are very simular). Im now approaching handwriting experts for a professional opinion.
Why Euan Macpherson has not investigated this area and covered it in his book is beyond me however possibly because he's done a good job avoiding all speculation and sticking to the facts. The letters are all thought to be fakes, with the possible exeception of the 'from hell letter'
I recognise Bury is a suspect that should be taken seriously with the already convincing weight of evidence for him as the ripper, but I hope you dont mind my observations anyway! |
puffmummy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
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Mr Grayson, I agree with your observations. You must also consider that Bury was known to be a heavy drinker and his handwriting would have changed as a result. This leads me to believe that other disregarded Ripper letters should be looked at more closely. |
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