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Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 12:55 am: |       |
After reading up on this incident, I'm convinced Millwood was an early attack by JTR. Other serial killers have been known to graduate from less severe crimes to murder in the course of their careers. Could Jack have done the same? I would guess that JTR attacked Millwood and then left her expecting her to bleed to death, especially if he thought he'd cut her femoral arteries in her legs.
Does anyone know if such violent attacks by random strangers was common in Whitechapel during this period? If not, I think that would strengthen the case for Millwood being a JTR victim. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
Hi Eric
I can't see anything much against her being an early victim, except for the time - if she was attacked in the afternoon, isn't that a bit early for JTR?
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 327
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 11:04 am: | |
Eric,
Annies attacker is very similar description wise to the Blotchy face man seen with Kelly.
Am I wrong ?
Monty
 |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 104
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hi Eric
I've always felt that Annie was attacked by the same man as Martha Tabram, so it depends on how you feel about that one being a Ripper job.
Cheers
Alan |
Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 12:17 am: | |
Robert,
Maybe the Ripper had the day off? Wouldn't it be cool to find a company that let it's workers go early that day and find a worker with acne? Maybe we'd find the Ripper after long last. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1026
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 4:41 pm: | |
Hi Eric, everyone
Can someone point me to the description of Annie's attacker, for I'm jiggered if I can find it.
Robert |
Chuk Homer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 4:31 pm: | |
It is interesting that the Annie's residence and Mary Jane Kelly's residence were only a block apart. I think that the murder of Polly Nichols may have been an attempt to spread things out by Jack The Ripper, in order to not centralize his operations too close to his residence. I have always been sceptical of the "double-event" involving Liz Stride.
The Grafito left on the wall, and the only for sure evidence he ever left, a piece of clothing definetely from Kate Eddows, combined with the murders of Kelly; Eddows; Chapman; Tabrum; and the stabbings of Annie Millwood, all point to a very small vicinity; look at it on a map, and consider that Jack was on his way home from Mitre Square and Eddows when he left the piece of clothing. It is natural for a Serial Killer to comit his first attempt close to home. After the scare started it would behove him to keep his killing fields as close to home as possible.
Also, I believe that Jack had to know Mary Jane Kelly rather well to know that she lived in a appartment, and to plan the murder of her at that very location. |
Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:42 am: | |
Robert,
If you look, you will notice that Annie was attacked on a Saturday. This lines up with Ripper practices. Perhaps, JTR pulled this attack, then got started by someone and decided night operations would be safer. I wonder how long it was after the attack that Annie was found. |
Chris Michetti
Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
Hi all,
This is pretty interesting, actually. Did any of our current suspects have acne? It probably wouldn't be that hard to check.
Chris 
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Paul Jackson
Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 8:45 pm: | |
Hi everyone
Man Im all for Annie Milwood being attacked by Saucy Jack. As for it being in the daytime...
I have no good explanation for that, unless as
Eric said..just figured would be much safer for him. Hey, ya gotta start somewhere.
Paul |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 200
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 9:04 am: | |
Hi all,
Because there are too many similarities between this case and the other canonical cases, I also think Annie Millwood might have been an early Ripper victim. Like Eric suggested, with Annie being an early victim and Jack still learning, he might have decided after this that it would be better to try and kill during the night. The fact that it seems to have taken relatively long before he tried again, very possibly with Martha Tabram, might have been caused by the fact that Annie Millwood didn’t die as a result of his attack, something that must have left the Ripper unsure and perhaps even scared.
And Monty, perhaps on a minor note and in case you hadn’t discovered it yet, you’re confusing Annie’s attack with that of Ada Wilson. She was the one who was attacked by a man with a sunburnt face in her home at Maidman Street, Mile End.
Take care,
Frank
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1206
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 9:20 am: | |
I can agree with Frank and others here that the attack on Annie Millwood is a good candidate for being an early test run by the Ripper. Still, we must not forget that the Ripper probably wasn't the only one in East End operating with knives at the time.
But I must admit I think her role in connection with the Ripper business is valid and interesting. I am even less sure of Tabram, though.
The area where the Ripper operated is quite a small one, it's true, but many of them are scattered all over the place and it is quite hard as far as I am concerned to see a real pattern; it is small in geography but not that concentrated -- I think that becomes more obvious when you walk the routes yourself.
Mitre Square is actually situated quite a distance from the other murder sites, and
the Buck's Row murder site's very off location is a puzzle to me. It is actually quite far away, and believe me, it is even more far off in reality than what one can interpret from the maps.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 813
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 4:13 am: | |
Frank,
I figured that out on Saturday 18th October after Robert Charles had posted his post....
.....I'd have gotten away with it too if it wasnt for you, you pesky kid !!
Glenn,
I disagree. I feel Mitre square and Bucks Row are reasonably close to the other sites. 20 mins walk max between the two (unless you cant hack the pace Papa ! )Its just that they are on the opposite limits of what is supposed to be the Rippers area (which I disagree...again) and therefore seem out of the way.
Do you agree they are not far from main thoroughfares ?
Monty
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Carl Burrows
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 6:44 am: | |
Intersesting post and kind of ties in with an idea I had regarding possible JTR description!
Annie Millwood was attacked on the 25th Feb and admitted to Whitechapel infirmary with stab wounds to the legs and lower parts of the body, by a man with a clasp knife and died on the 25th of march from a heart attack.On the 28th march Ada Wilson was attacked at the front door to her home and was stabbed twice in the throat.The description (according to Bob Hinton's book), the police had is of a man 5'6 and with a sunburnt face,for both attacks..This description also tallies with Mrs Long's evidence at the Annie Chapman inquest.
I definitly believe these attacks to be Jacks test runs for want of a better phrase,kinda of testing his knife and nerve before he reached his full M.O.
The hieght of 5'6 seems very consistant throughout the case,also 30-35 age, and on a few occasions the suntan has also been given as part of the description,as far as I am aware the blotchy type complexion was only mentioned in reference to a possible punter Mary Kelly took back to millars court before she came to grief.
So on that basis would it be possible to maybe narrow the field of suspects down a bit,although I know this could be difficult as there is a lot of grey areas regarding certain suspects descriptions,but using this method suspects like Tumblety for instance would not make the cut as he was too old and too tall!.
I dont want to lead too much on this,but perhaps the sunburnt face was mistaken for an Arab type skin and would tie in nicely with Arbie Le Bruckman,presuming his Algerian origin to be true.
Please feel free to shoot me down in flames
All the best |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 8:30 am: | |
Hi Monty,
It's true that they lay close to the main thoroughfares, but some of them still seem out of the way from one another. 20 minutes sounds correct, but when I walked the routes I felt no pattern whatsoever. My only feeling was that the murder sites were scattered all over the place. To draw up lines on the map is one thing, walk the distance yourself is totally another matter, old boy.
But of course, I have naturally taken into account that I am unfamiliar with the area, something that of course influences my perception of things. But nevertheless.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 814
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Howdy Glenn,
But of course, I have naturally taken into account that I am unfamiliar with the area, something that of course influences my perception of things. But nevertheless. True...also the fact that some routes have slightly altered since 1888.
Did you manage Old Montague st ? I have a feeling this is a crux area. Smith (no I do not include her attack but...), Tabram, Nichols Graffito/Apron all close to Old Montague St. But thats just me.
I agree about the randomness. I mean, is Ivors idea that off beat ? The coincedence does make me uncomfortable....though I do need more.
That said, Millwood is still a contender Charlie...instead of a bum, which is what I am.
Monty
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 1:25 pm: | |
Howdy, Monty, my lad
"Did you manage Old Montague st..."?
Only part of it, I'm afraid. Rats, I was so short of time!
On the south side of Whitechapel High Street, I managed to turn off into Commercial Street and Henrique Street, but as far as the northern areas above Whitechapel High Street are concerned, I never got that far east of Brick Lane; after Goulston Street, and then the City Darts and Gunthorpe Street along Wentworth Street, I only passed Brick Lane and walked a bit on Old Montague Street -- then I unfortunately had to turn back after half the distance; Durward Street (former Buck's Row) seemed to far away and I was stressed for time.
Durward Street is as I see it completely far off anything else, and that is in my view even clearly evident on the maps, which disturbs me a bit -- even more off than Mitre Square (look at the map in the A--Z). And it nearly finished off my old ticker for good (pouh!)...
However, I agree that there is a clear and concentrated route following Goulston Street and the places along Wenthworth Street and the streets in the vicinity. These seem rather concentrated and not that scattered at all. So you are absolutely right there.
However, we can't assume that all of them were Ripper victims anyway -- I prefer to keep an open mind about Tabram (and I definitely exclude Smith), which makes it hard to legitimate a true movement pattern in the first place.
Annie Millwood's location on White's Row not far from Dorset Street is interesting, I think. However, much depends whether Tabram was a Ripper victim or not, since Millwood's stab wounds seems more similar to hers than the canonical Ripper victims.
So, you're a bum, eh?
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 203
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 4:25 pm: | |
“.....I'd have gotten away with it too if it wasnt for you, you pesky kid !!”
You’re welcome, Monty me ol’ lad!  |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 818
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 3:47 am: | |
Glenn, Frank,
Glenn,
Strange, I always think of Berner st as the odd one out. Not because of Stride but because of its location.
I do see what you mean. Its all ifs and buts regarding the other victims. But the apron doesnt lie. Goulston St was part of Jacks domain.
Tabram yeah or nay ? Stab wounds ? What about the slash ??? Starting of the mutilations ????? Disturbed in the act ????? (How many ?????? can Monty get in ???????????)
I guess you're not a Brando fan....therefore not a contender.
Monty
Frank,
Revenge will be so sweet my friend...Im watching....and waiting !!! |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1216
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 9:56 am: | |
Monty,
Of course, Berner Street's location is quite odd, but then we don't know if she was a Ripper victim either. I think we can say with certainty that at least Polly Nichols, Annie Chapman and Kate Eddowes were, though. And among those Durward Street is surprisingly out of the way.
Yes Tabram. Well, I mean... stab wounds, not really mutilations in the mould of the Ripper. I don't think there is enough much information that points at her being a Ripper victim if we look at the MO. And throat-cutting doesen't seem to have been that uncommon in the area anyway. What is interesting, is the relative similarities of Annie Millwood's wounds compared to Tabram's, although I believe Tabram were inflicted with a larger number of stabs.
Oh yes, I have never disputed Goulston street as Ripper territory, especially considering the apron. The writing on the wall, however, I think was already there and wasn't the Ripper's work, but that is just my personal hunch.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 824
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 10:50 am: | |
Glenn,
Relax, I never said you disputed Goulston St. I was just stating the bleedin obvious and refering to the apron. Like you, I doubt the graffito.
So you consider a 3 inch cut to be a stab wound? Me, I see a slash. But you are right..not a la Jack. Then again, early days. He may have been interupted with Martha.
Later,
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 795
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 10:55 am: | |
Ok, ok, I'm going to have to chime in before my head explodes and that would be pretty messy!!
What is the possibility that Jack just happened to drop the piece of apron by a message about the Jews? I don't see this as likely at all. I think that he left the apron there to prove that the Kate's killer wrote the message.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 825
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 11:07 am: | |
Right Sarah,
The question should be "What is the possibility that Jack just happened to drop the piece of apron by an ambibuous, nothing message about the Jews?"
Why be that cryptic ? If you want to claim you killed Eddowes and or Stride why dont you incorporate a place name, personal item or specific mutilation ('clip the ladys ears' springs to mind) into the graffito, "PS Here is her apron". Or keep the apron and post it off like the Zodiac with Stines shirt.
The Graffito is a nothing statement and therefore its questionable if Kates killer wrote.
Ive said it once, I'll say it again...just to be boring...if Jack had time to nick Kates eyes he had time to leave the graffito right above her body.
Then we wouldnt be here.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 799
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 12:29 pm: | |
I doubt that the walls were just filled with messages. I still think it's more likely that the killer wrote the message rather then just happening to leave it by a message that seems to implicate or not implicate the Jews (depending on how good his english was).
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 829
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 12:41 pm: | |
Sarah,
Graffiti is graffito. Today as back then.
So tell me, what does the graffito mean ?
Monty
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