| Author |
Message |
    
SPEARS
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 12:57 pm: | 
|
Hi
I have recently seen for the first time a photograph of Rippers Corner - the very spot where Catherine Eddowes was murdered.
I didnt realize that this photograph existed. I had only ever seen photographs looking towards the square through Church Passage.
It is interesting that there are still more pieces of the jigsaw to be found.
Kind Regards
SPEARS |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 857
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 3:09 pm: |
|
Hi Spears
For any who haven't seen the picture you mention, I presume this is the one you mean
regards
Chris
 |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 466
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 3:50 pm: |
|
Hi all
Wow that's quite a photograph! Where did you get this from Spears?? Interesting .... The thing that worries me is the background to the gates looks 1930's to 1950's to me..come on chaps!! help me out here!
suzi |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1074
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 5:13 pm: |
|
Hi all,
Once again, thank you, Chris, for delivering an interesting picture -- and thank you for bringing it up, Spears. I must say, I have never seen it before. I agree with Suzi; it feels rather unique with such a close-up.
Does anybody know when the picture is dated? As far as I know, there exists a number of photographs from Mitre Square taken in the 1920s, when the place still looked like it did during the Ripper murders. But it could very well be from the late 19th century as well, as I see it.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 203
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 6:02 pm: |
|
Hi all
The picture was taken in the mid sixties, possibly by Tom Cullen as it was reproduced in his book 'Autumn of Terror'
All the best
Rob |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 259
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 10:04 pm: |
|
Right in front of a gate, just like Nichols, and Stride. I've commented on this before. I just can't figure out why. Did prostitutes service their clients in front of gates for some reason?
Is there some reason Jack was drawn to gates? Maybe his childhood abuse at female hands happened in front of a gate? |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 1:24 am: |
|
Hi all,
Shouldn't there be those "empty houses" to the immediate right of that wooden gate? Have they been demolished by then and the brick wall errected?
regards
confused Christian
|
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 477
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 3:42 am: |
|
Diana,
The gate thing is interesting isn't it..Hmmmmmmmmm Strangely Fred West had a thing about gates too..off thread I know but interesting..Suppose gates could prove a useful escape route if needed..if open at the time!
Going to think about this..
Cheers
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1970
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 4:27 am: |
|
Hi all
Re gates, perhaps it's more a question of yards.
Monty/Ivor Edwards say that both the Buck's Row and Mitre Square gates were locked at the time (hope I'm remembering this right). In Berner St and Hanbury St the gates/front door were not locked, and the murders occurred in the yards.
Robert |
SPEARS
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 6:43 pm: |
|
Hi all.
Yes this is the picture I was referring too. I have recently purchased a 1976 edition of 'The Complete JTR' in which this photo appears. In the book there is also a photo of Buck's Row that I have never seen before.
Chris - Thanks for posting the photo
It just goes to show that just when you think you have seen all there is to see.......you haven't.
Regards
SPEARS |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2946
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 11:29 am: |
|
Conversation moved to Victims: Catherine Eddowes
(Message edited by admin on January 30, 2004)
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
|
Neale Carter
Sergeant
Username: Ncarter
Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
|
and the murders occurred in the yards
Robert,
I agree; the salient point here is yards not gates. This should give us some insight in JtR's approach to risk of detection. Yards per se are enclosed so no traffic passing through, however there is only one obvious way to escape. Or did he use a less obvious means of egress.
Though not directly linked to JtR, Rose Mylett also was found in a yard, ie. Clarke's Yard.
The presence of gates is part and parcel of a Whitechapel "yard". Unless they are viewed as some sort of portal for these wretched from this this miseable life to somewhere else.
Regards
Neale |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 7:22 am: |
|
Hi all,
same question again (the first one seemed to be invisible): What happened to the houses that should be to the immediate right of that gate, where we only see a brick wall?
Were they demolished and replaced by that wall?
I know a pic from the 1930ies (I think) where Ripper's corner still was intact (meaning with those "empty houses"). So when about was the pic above taken?
regards
Christian
|
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 174
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 7:59 am: |
|
Hi Christian,
This is what Rob Clack said on the 29 January: "The picture was taken in the mid sixties, possibly by Tom Cullen as it was reproduced in his book 'Autumn of Terror'"
So I guess the empty houses must have been demolished somewhere between the 1930's picture and when the above picture was taken.
All the best,
Frank |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 869
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 8:15 am: |
|
Hi Christian
If we compare the pic with this well known drawing of the square in 1888
we can see that you are right in that the layout is different and that in 1888 the wall (or fence, as it looks to me) carried straight on to the back of the empty houses. the buildings visible in the right background of the photo are not the "empty houses" of 1888. They are too far away, too tall, and the sign visible on the front of the buildings suggests we are looking at the front of the buildings, not the back. My best guess would be that these are in fact the building on the west side of Mitre Street. For these to be visible from the spot where the photograph was taken, the "empty houses" must by that time have been demolished. This would fit in with a date for the photo of some time in the sixties. Therefore, the right hand section of wall in the photo that returns back towards the viewer must be an addition after 1888 but certainly from the photograph it does not look recent so I would suggest it was built some considerable time prior to the photo being taken.
regards
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 870
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 8:30 am: |
|
Christian
For comparison here is a photo when the "empty houses" were still standing. This shows the road from Mitre Square into Mitre Street.
Chris
 |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 205
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 9:49 am: |
|
Hi Chris, Christian
Chris, That last picture of Mitre Square you posted, is actually the entrance to Church Passage. Did you find that photo in the 'Murder Casebook' Who was Jack the Ripper? as it was wrongly identified in there.
Christian, William Stewart took a photo of Rippers corner in 1938/39 and the empty houses were still standing. As Chris pointed out, the wall doesn't look like it was built recently. Now this is speculation, but the bottom of the wall looks similar to the building in William Stewarts photo, so I wonder if the building was damaged or partly destroyed during the War, and what remained on that side was used to build a wall(some of the bricks don't even match).
All the best
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 206
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 10:23 am: |
|
This is the photo from William Stewarts book. The quality is't that great, but you can see the similarities between the wall and the building.
 |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 11:20 am: |
|
Hi Frank, Chris, Robert
thank you very very muchfor the effort and the explanations.
You know, after all those experiences with photos here I only wanted to be carefull ;-)
best wishes
Christian
|
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 514
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 6:12 pm: |
|
Hi all
Better see you all on the CATHARINE Eddowes site then!! odd how that first photo that got us all going had the usual typo on Kate's name at the top of the photo!!
See you on Eddowes!..
Presume it'll still be called 'Mitre Square .Rippers Corner photograph etc.' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1993
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 6:19 pm: |
|
Hi all
Re bomb damage to Mitre Square, I seem to remember seeing a reference on a Jewish genealogy website to "the man burned in Mitre Street".
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 515
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 6:20 pm: |
|
Wow ! am verrry impressed!!! There we all are moved to the Kate site!! Excellent chaps...right..where were we... Carry on chaps.. still think that the ubiquitous gate is over where the flowerbed/seating is now and that it's far further into the square than at first look.
Cheers
suzi |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 710
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
|
Robert,
Just to clarify. Browns stables and the lumber yard were locked.
Below is an extract from private mail received from Ivor.
The following article is from the DAILY TELEGRAPH of
Monday, October 1, 1888, page 5 -
"The south-west corner is the one which is on the right hand when the square is entered from Mitre-street. On this side, separated from the open public space by a low wall and fence, there is a private yard, which is for the most part roofed in, and is used as a lumber room. This yard, which is some 40 ft. to 50 ft. in depth, and about 30 ft. wide, intervenes between a tall pile of warehouses, six stories high, occupied by Messrs. Horner and Sons, drug merchants, and a block of dwelling houses, with shops on the ground floor, the backs of which look upon the square, and the fronts face Mitre-street. The corner house only is occupied, the tenant being Mr. Taylor, a picture-frame maker, who was absent from home. Therefore the premises, together with those adjoining, were quite empty. In the fence above mentioned there is a door, which opens into the private yard, but it was locked. Near to the door is a coal shoot, and at a distance a couple of arched gratings, giving light to the cellars of the corner houses in Mitre-street. Above these gratings there are two windows, provided with green shutters, which were closed. The woman was lying on the pavement, with her head about eighteen inches from the door in the fence and the coal shoot, and with her legs toward the roadway."
Ive alway seen a significance in the yards or enclosed spaces (such as Marys room). Its a privacy thing. It also shows Jacks confidence in his 'abilities'.
Monty
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1999
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 3:55 pm: |
|
Thanks Monty. Of course, there's AP's notion of someone who was able to scale walls and climb fences, too.
I wish I could read what's on the notice next to the gates in the photo at the top of the thread!
Robert |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 9:10 am: |
|
The pallings to the left of Cullens photo, i.e. erected on top of the small wall and stone capping, are also replacements.
For if you look at Stewarts photo then the original pallings run left to right.
If you again look at Cullens photo you will see that the pallings run up and down, thus they must be replacements.
The gate however, looks to me, to be original.
Cludgy |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 9:00 am: |
|
All,
If you look at the first picture in this thread,(Cullens)the one with the gate and wall, you will notice that the bottom stone section of it, bottom right of picture has a black vertical section running down it.
Now go to Stewarts 1930's photo and you wiil see a drainpipe exactly where the black mark is, in Cullens photo.
I think they are one and the same,i.e. the mark is where the drainpipe has marked the stone
It looks as though the buildings were knocked down but their lower section was used to make a wall.
Look again to Cullens photo, and you will see where the widow in Stewarts photo has been, it has been filled in with new bricks
To confirm it, if you look at Cullens photo lower left, you will see that the small section of wall is identical to the wall in Stewarts photo, i.e. 6 layers of brick with a stone topping sloping up at an angle.
Cludgy |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 8:46 am: |
|
Don't know if anybodys interested but had a word with an old east End friend of mine and asked him about the area to the rear of the locked gate in Cullens 1960's photo of Rippers corner.
If you look, you can notice that there is quite a large area demolished behind the gates, you can see the buildings of the other side of Mitre Street in the background.
My friend tells me that back in the sixties this area was used as a parking space for a second hand car buissness, hence the lock on the gates in Cullens photo.
As far as he remembers the wall to the right of cullens photo, only went as far as the end of where the rear of the last house in the square ended.
There was then a six foot high chain link fence going from there into mitre Street, it then continued left down Mitre street and ended at a building on the corner of Aldate High street.
The idea for the chain link fence was so you could view at all times the cars that were for sale inside the compound.
Cludgy |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 7:42 am: |
|
I first visited the Ripper sites (Durward St/Bucks Row; Hanbury St and Mitre Sq) in 1976. Alas I didn't have a camera then and took no pictures. When I returned to Mitre Sq in 1984 (and took pics) I was shocked at the change.
I had, of course, seen some of the photographs of Mitre Square before my 1976 visit (in books such as Matters') and my recollection is that in 1976 the square was still very much as it had been, and that I thought the corner, and the gates in front of which, Eddowes body lay was very similar to the old photographs.
Memory can play some strange tricks. Is my recollection possible? When did the demolitions occur and when did the gates vanish for good? last time I was there, iron railings had taken their place.
Phil |
Sarah Osbourne
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 9:56 pm: |
|
does anyone have a diagram of Mary Kellys room. I found one on the net yesturday but cant find it again. Its for a school project. Thank You |
Sarah Osbourne
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 9:56 pm: |
|
does anyone have a diagram of Mary Kellys room. I found one on the net yesturday but cant find it again. Its for a school project. Thank You |
