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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 101
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |       |
Mary Ann Nichols had five children Edward John, Percy George, Alice Esther, Eliza Sarah, and Henry Alfred.
I thought it would be interesting to post any details found about what happened to them.
Percy George Nichols died in 1948, this is an account from the Islington Gazette of Friday October 22, 1948.
HOLLOWAY ROAD
MISHAP
_____
INQUEST ON AGED MAN
An accident in Holloway-road in August, when an 80-year-old Islington man was injured by a van was recalled at a St Pancras inquest yesterday (Thursday).
The man, Percy George Nichols, of Kingsdown-road, N.19, was found dead at home on Saturday.
His widow, Mrs Elizabeth Nichols of the same address said that after the accident in August he was brought home by the policeman and the driver of the van which had hit him. He seemed to get well gradually and was able to get about, but he was later taken bad and on Saturday she went for the doctor. Her husband died before the doctor came.
PC J. Craven said that on August 6 he was called to Holloway-road at the junction of Tollington-way and Tavistock-terrace. The man was sitting on a chair and said, “I was going to cross the road. I did not see the van. My eyesight is bad and being deaf I cannot hear them come.” The man refused to go to hospital.
Dr Florence Louis, pathologist, said that death was due to haemorrhage due to the rupture of an aneurism. The damage to the aneurim was consistent with being struck by a vehicle.
Henry Lukins, the van driver, of Garfield-road, Battersea, said that it was raining hard at the time of the accident and that his speed along Holloway-road was about 25 m.p.h.
He added: “I saw him step off the pavement and I sounded my horn. As he paid no attention I applied my brakes.”
Because the vehicle was on the tramlines it started skidding and the man was still “wandering across the road.” As soon as the van struck the man it stopped, the man falling over the radiator.
“There seems no doubt that his death is due to this event,” said the Coroner (Mr W. Bentley Purchase) to the jury.
“Verdict: “Accidental death.”
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 102
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 2:46 pm: | |
The first wife of Percy George Nichols was Ada Amelia Crombleholme. I do not believe the couple had any children?
They lived in Camberwell until the 1901 census, then between then and the 1920's left to live in Islington, North London.
They appear on the 1923 electoral register at 45 Richmond Road, Islington, until 1926 when Ada died.
By 1929, Percy George moved to 5 Kingsdown Road, Islington. He was living there when he remarried Elizabeth Maud Gell at Islington Register Office on 3rd October 1936. He was 68 and she was 59, both widowed. Elizabeth's maiden name had been Warden, and she lived at 5 Beversbrook Road.
They lived together at Kingsdown Road until Percy's death in 1948. |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2926
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 2:46 pm: | |
Hi Neal -
Glad to see you're making some headway on Polly's descendants! Let's hope this avenue of research is just as fruitful as your previous excursions into the families of Annie Chapman and Catherine Eddowes.
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 103
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
Hi Stephen,
In many ways Polly's descendants are turning out to be few and far between, compared to Annie and Kate's as I hope to point out on this thread.
Following is an account of Percy's first wife's inquest report from the Islington Gazette of the 24th September 1926:
COLLAPSED IN THE STREET
______
Barnsbury Women’s Sudden
Death
Sir Walter Schroder held an inquest at St Pancras Coroner’s Court concerning the death of Ada Amelia Nichols, aged 54, who resided at Richmond Road, Barnsbury.
Percy George Nichols, a printer’s machine manager, the husband, stated that deceased had enjoyed very good health. On Tuesday week she partook of some mussels, after which she complained of having pains all over the body. She took some medicine, and recovered, and went on quite well till Sunday afternoon, when she complained of the intense heat.
She went for a walk, and in Matilda-street, Barnsbury, they went into a public-house, where deceased had two drops of whisky. As they were returning home the deceased stopped to talk to two female friends, whilst witness went home. A quarter of an hour later he returned to Matilda-street, and then found she had been taken ill, and was unconscious. She was placed in an ambulance and removed to the Royal Free Hospital. He followed, and on arriving at the hospital he was informed that she was dead.
Other evidence was given that the deceased, in conversation with her two female friends, complained of feeling the heat very much. Leaving her friends she was seen to be running along, when she suddenly clutched the railings, after which she collapsed and fell to the pavement. On assistance going to her she was found to be unconscious. Police-constable Waugh, 1065Y, called an ambulance, and had her removed to the Royal Free Hospital, where life was found to be extinct.
Dr (Miss) Cadle, house physician at the Royal Free Hospital, who made a post mortem examination of the body, said that death resulted from the rupture of the left coronary artery. With disease of the coronary arteries, and an enlarged fatty heart, deceased was liable to die suddenly at any moment, and hurrying was one of the worst things for her to do.
The Coroner recorded a verdict in accordance with the medical evidence.
The death certificate records her death on the 19th September as "Ruptured Coronary Artery. Atheroma of vessels."
(Message edited by neal on January 19, 2004) |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 104
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 3:53 pm: | |
As with Percy George Nichols, I believe his youngest brother Henry Alfred Nichols and his wife Alice Ada, did not have children after their marriage in 1910.
Alice Ada Nichols died in 1957.
Henry Alfred Nichols died on the 13th November 1967 at Wilkinson House, Dewar Street, Peckham, South London.
He was 88, and a retired printers machine minder. His cause of death was (1) Bronchopneumonia (2) Chronic Bronchitis. George H.Berriman, nephew of 7 Arodene Road, SW2, was the informant.
I think people will agree that it's hard to believe that a son of a Jack the Ripper victim was still alive in 1967!
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Brad McGinnis
Detective Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 94
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 8:40 am: | |
Great work Neal! As always.
|
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 105
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 2:58 pm: | |
Thanks Brad,
I've also managed to follow up the family of Alice Esther Nichols, Mary Ann Nichols eldest daughter, with slightly more success.
Alice Esther married William Samuel Edwards. They had two children and were still living in Camberwell on the 1901 census. Up until 1923, the family lived at 23 Ashbourne Grove.
I am reliably informed that the second child remained single all her life and did not have children.
The first child was named Iris Alice Edwards. Her father William Samuel Edwards of Ashbourne Ruskin Road, Carshalton, Surrey, died on 6th December 1925. His probate read effects of over £700.
Iris Alice married in her 30's at Lambeth, and the couple had one child. Her husband died in the early 1950's at Epsom, Surrey. This left mother, daughter and granddaughter together.
Alice Esther Edwards (nee Nichols) died at the grand old age of 92 on 21st August 1962 at Epsom District Hospital, Surrey. She had been living at Tadworth with Iris Alice, and left effects of £2748 6s.
Iris Alice died in the 1980's.
I am in contact with her daughter who informs me that despite spending many years in the company of her grandmother Alice Esther Edwards, she never gave her any details about her mother Mary Ann Nichols. In fact, she told her nothing much about the Nichols family, only scraps of info like having a brother Percy. Again it looks like a case of a daughter of a Ripper victim keeping quite about the fate of her mother. The same happened with the family of Annie Chapman and Kate Eddowes.
The relative has also informed me that there are no photographs of Mary Ann Nichols, but she does have some of her grandmother Alice Esther that I hope will be first seen on this thread when she sends them on to me. |
Michael Blayne Raney
Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 16
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
Well done Neal! You are once again, a great source of information. Quite interesting that the children of the deceased seemed never to mention the demise of their mothers, even to family members. In this day and age I think it would be something a little more freely shared.
Mikey |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 239
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:22 pm: | |
Hi Mikey,
Perhaps Polly's descendants were frightened by her fate, and did not like to speak or speculate about the crime and who committed it. They may even have known who was the killer, but did not want to tempt fate in sharing her fate.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 106
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 2:21 pm: | |
Thanks Michael,
I think your right that nowadays it would be different.
There are still two of Mary's children to search for Edward John Nichols and sister Eliza Sarah. The latter is a bit of a mystery after 1901, and Edward and his wife and children could have left the country after that date?
All the best
Neal |
Kris Law
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 82
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 2:31 pm: | |
Jeff,
That's an idea . . . I was also thinking that if you were the great grandchild of one of Jack the Ripper's victims the whole idea might be a little close to home. It's one thing for us to dabble in this mystery, but if the vicitim was your great grandmother it might be a lot more disturbing. I know I wouldn't want to be reading about my reletive's womb being taken out in the dark of night.
And I would imagine if you heard about it from the time you were a tiny child you might be a bit sick of the whole topic.
Just a thought. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 240
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 9:13 pm: | |
Hi Kris,
There is always a special sense of horror when a relative or friend is the victim of a dreadful crime. I know a young woman, who I knew years ago as a child, who got shot by bandits in Los Angeles and took a number of years to recover (she seems to be doing well now). It stands to reason that if the victim dies (and in the case of the Whitechapel victims, they died horribly) the descendants would have been badly affected.
An example that comes to mind (although the victim did not die) were the daughter and wife of Secretary of State William Seward. The young lady
(Fanny Seward) was never physically strong. When
Seward was attacked on his sick bed by Lewis Payne
(John Wilkes Booth's co-conspirator)on April 14, 1865, Payne stabbed the Secretary, and his two sons (as well as a male assistant). The horror of the attack killed Mrs. Seward within two months, and Fanny died in a year - and Seward himself survived the attack (although he died seven year later).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 110
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
I believe it is likely that Mary Ann Nichols husband could be the following entry from the death registers:
WILLIAM NICHOLS. DIED AGED 77. CAMBERWELL. (SEP book) 1917 |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
A newly found photograph of Alice Esther Edwards (nee Nichols), aged 36. She was Mary Ann Nichols eldest daughter.  |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 557
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 10:28 am: | |
Hi Neal
Great work as always. Perhaps it's my imagination but there seems to be a similarity in the shape of the face.
All The Best
Gary |
Belinda Pearce
Police Constable
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 11:58 am: | |
You are amazing!Polly's daughter looks so sad in that photograph but also very pretty.I am trying to track down a copy of your book on Annie Chapman but am not having much luck.If anyone has a copy they would like to sell email me |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 121
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
Thanks Gary and Belinda,
I think there was a likeness with the shape of her face, she probably looks less like her mother than the picture of her brother Edward John in Andy and Sue Parlour's book. But in saying that it is of course difficult to tell considering all that we have of Polly is a mortuary photograph where she's lying down.
The photograph of Alice is part of a larger one that also has her husband William and two daughters included. My computer finds it difficult to upload whole pictures to the boards but I hope to send it through in time.
All the best
Neal |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 398
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Neal Many Thanks for posting the lovely photo of Polly Nichols Daughter.
Best Wishes Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 6:24 am: | |
Great work, Neal. I love this kind of stuff, and a very interesting photo indeed. Keep on digging!
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 9:48 pm: | |
Mary Ann's eldest son, Edward, and his wife, Lilian, had a daughter named Lilian (born 1896). She is pictured to the left. She also had a daughter named Lilian, who is pictured to the right. I believe this photo was taken in the 1940s. |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 146
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 4:25 pm: | |
Thank you Maureen for posting the photograph. It is wonderful to see the two Lilian's. I hope you don't mind me saying, but I feel that there is a likeness between Lilian and her aunt Alice posted above.
I hope that Andy Parlour will be able to post the picture of Lilian's father Edward John Nichols.
Neal
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 800
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 5:33 pm: | |
Maureen,thankyou from me too.The photos are brilliant.
Regards Natalie |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 12:33 am: | |
Thanks Neal and Natalie, for the positive comments on the photo. Mary Ann Nichols' second child, Florence Elizabeth, married Thomas Clarence Tate. I believe Florence died in August 1965. The following refers to one of Florence's sons and is online at the Commonwealth War Graves website.
Name: TATE, HERBERT GEORGE
Initials: H G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Leading Stoker
Regiment: Royal Navy
Unit Text: H.M.S. Marigold
Age: 23
Date of Death: 09/12/1942
Service No: C/KX 96953
Additional information: Son of Thomas Clarence and Florence Elizabeth Tate, of Canvey Island, Essex.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 61, 2.
Cemetery: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL
Cemetery: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL
Country: United Kingdom
Locality: Kent |
Neal Shelden
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 154
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 3:38 pm: | |
Hi Maureen,
Thank you for the information about Florence and her family. I'm from Essex myself, so it's interesting that Florence came this way.
Did her descendants remain in Essex?
Do you also think it's unlikely that any of Florence's family knew much about the Nichols family history or were passed down anything from the family?
Information that can be added from the internet to your details on Herbert are that the Corvette HMS Marigold was torpedoed and sunk by Italian aircraft off Algiers.
Neal |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 878
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
Thankyou Maureen.It makes sad reading-so young at 23.But so interesting that you have this information.
Natalie. |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 1:58 am: | |
Hi Neal,
Thanks for the additional info on the sinking of George's boat. Yes, I know his name is Herbert George, but they called him George! Using a second name seems common in this family.
Florence had a total of 6 children, 4 girls and 2 boys. 2 died in childhood, 1 as a young man, 1 in 1964 and the 2 youngest are still alive.
I believe the daughter who remained in England would have received most of her mother's photos, etc., so I will try to find out her married name and children's names and whether they remained in Essex, as she died approx. 1964.
It is interesting that you are from Essex, so you would be familiar with the places. I have never been to England, so I look at maps and try to comprehend what it really looks like, distances, travelling times, etc. I had hoped to visit England this year, but circumstances have made that unlikely. Perhaps next year I'll get to see it for myself.
Maureen
maurdam at yahoo dot com |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 12:06 am: | |
Hi Natalie. Yes it is sad that Florence lost her son in WW2. Her brother, Eric, died in WW1 at the age of 17. She had another son, Tommy who died in childhood and a daughter who died in infancy (possibly named Elizabeth). |
Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 155
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 3:44 pm: | |
Hi Maureen,
Sorry I didn't see your latest post, I've only just noticed it.
Thanks again for the information. I did check for Florence's death for 1965 but she wasn't there, it must have been one of the other years?
Bit of a mystery with Lilian Saunders death though, couldn't find her death in the Herne Bay area, must have missed it?
Neal
To all,
I've decided to change my surname back from my adopted surname "Shelden" to my original surname "Stubbings", and will be using that name in future  |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 6:17 am: | |
Hi Neal,
I will try to remember your new name. Old name, actually, but new to us here!
Thanks for checking Lilian and Florence for death records. It's odd that you could not find anything and I'm wondering if I made a mistake on the year. I am away from home for a few days and can't access my family tree database until I return.
If you can think of some good questions I should be asking my cousins when they visit in a couple of weeks, please feel free to email me at mauradam at yahoo dot com
Thanks.
Maureen
|
M.S.N.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 8:43 pm: | |
hello everyone, if it helps there Neal I'm actually a decendant of Mary Anne Nichols, she was my great great great aunt, my name is Matthew Scott Nichols and I live across the ocean in Kitchener Ontario Canada. Now I know most of you wont believe me, everyone that knows me does but uh...as we all know, none of you know me but ya I thought I would help and post and just tell all of you, if u need to know anything else just ask. |
James V. Bianco
Police Constable
Username: Jamesvbianco
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 9:08 am: | |
Neal, amazing photograph! I was wondering if at the very least, the grandaughter you were in contact with knew her great grandmother was a Ripper Victim or not.
Thanks
James |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 8:40 pm: | |
Hello all,
For copies of all of Neal Shelden's amazing works (he's good for more than just photos, by the way, his research into the history of the victims has become a cornerstone of our knowledge of them), you might want to check out the following sites as one or more may have copies:
www.abe.com
www.laybooks.com
www.rupert-books.co.uk
(once there, look for and click the 'Jack the Ripper' link. Dixon Smith, who runs this business, used to contribute to Ripperologist magazine. I've done business with both Mr. Smith and Loretta Lay for years and have yet to be disappointed.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
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Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 4:08 am: | |
Hi Matthew. Which of Mary Nichols' siblings are you descended from? From what you say, it sounds like we are cousins.
Maureen |
Richard Bailey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 3:22 pm: | |
I am doing some genealogy on my family and did a search on "Samuel Edwards and Birminhgam" (my great-great grandfather). I came (to my surprise) across this site and found that (according to a post by Chris Scott on 5/11/2003) it was my great-grandmother's brother William Samuel Edwards who married Alice Esther Nichols, making Alice, in essence, a great-great aunt (I think) of mine.
Alas, I don't think I have any photos, but when I am home for Christmas I will see if thee are some. My mother, I think, could well have known Alice.
First I've heard of any of this. |
Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 182
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 3:02 pm: | |
Hi Richard,
I've been in contact with Alice and William Edwards only remaining direct relative and she couldn't tell me a lot about them. Good to hear that you are related to William's family. She certainly didn't know about her connection to the Jack the Ripper victim even though she was with Alice for a good deal of her old age.
To all,
I've managed to find the death certificate for Mary's eldest son Edward John Nichols from the burial date provided by Maureen.
Edward John died aged 40 (was probably older) on the 15th September 1908 at Edmonton Union Workhouse. He was described as a tool maker journeyman of 99 South Street, Ponders End, Enfield. Cause of death was a Carcinoma of the submaxillary gland, exhaustion, certified by William Magill mb. His wife Lilian M. Nichols registered the death.
Neal |
M.S.N.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 12:11 am: | |
BAH I dont know...lol I'll go ask my dad...well tommorow seeing that is christmas day and hes sleeping(its 12 in the morning) but I thought id check this before I go to bed since I havent in awhile...ok well Ill check back later and tell you. Wait one of them were a cop I think...so whichever one of them were a cop...AH that might not help at all and im pretty tired lol Ill just ask my dad in the morning lol ok well, talk to you soon. |
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