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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 511
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 8:39 am: | 
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OK Folks,
Where to start ?……
Right a brief sum up for those that don’t know.
Young girl by the name of Coles was found with her throat cut by a young PC on a morning in February 1891.
Now this murder may or may not have been one of Jacks work. Personally I think not. But I do not want to discuss that here…go and make a new thread if you want to talk about Francis being one of Jacks.
What I want to talk about is the search by Insp Flanagan (?? Who he, can anyone help me on that?,,cheers) and his finding behind a water pump of 2 bob wrapped in two pieces of the Daily News (date no included).
Its presumed that it’s the earnings of Francis. So here goes with some of Montys infamous pointless questions :-
1) 2 Shillings? Bit steep for a Dollymop from Bermondsey eh ? Saddlers money ?
2) Is/was it common practice to hide such items in public ? I think its highly probable that this was done. What with muggings and thieving ect. Is this the reason Coles was in that area ?
3) The wrapping of items in newspapers. We have seen it with Chapman…again, common practice ?
4) Why hide it next to perhaps one of the most commonly used pieces of equipment in that area ?
Now these questions aint going to set this case on fire…but it may just start, a flame in…..
Just pondering !!
PS Yes, yes, I know its FrancEs....and No, no I wasnt thinking of Franny Lee !...more Howard...ohh, no, shut your face !!
(Message edited by monty on December 15, 2003)
Monty
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 753
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 10:03 am: |
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Hi Monty
Well hopefully I can fill in one of the answers to your questions. Inspector Flanagan was one James Flanagan and in the 1891 census his details are given as follows:
Address:
407 Commercial Road, Mile End Old Town
Head:
James Flanagan aged 38 born Ireland
Police Inspector
Wife:
Emily Flanagan aged 26 born Stoke Newington, London
Son:
Herbert Flanagan aged 8 months born Mile End OT
Hope this helps in your search
Chris
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 514
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 10:20 am: |
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Chris,
As ever I bow to both your industry and generosity.
Thanks mate....Spry, take note, this guy should be a Hall of Famer !!!
An Insp at 38 ??!! Blimey. Either he was good or they did have a poor bunch !
No report from him ? Maybe lost. Find it odd that it should be.
Never mind.
Again Chris, many thanks....owe you a 
Monty
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 754
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
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Hi Monty
many thankx for the comments:-)
Found our man in 1881 census when he was a humble sergeant!!
1881 census:
James Flanagan
Blackman Street Police Station, Southwark
Born 1853 in Ireland - age 28
Unmarried
Police Sergeant
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 755
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 12:08 pm: |
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Last bit of info I found:
James Flanagan married Emily (maiden name Arlett) in St George's east in 3rd quarter of 1889. Emily Arlett (as she was then) is listed in 1881 as a draper's assistant living at 164 White Horse Street, London.
Regards
Chris |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 521
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
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Chris,
Ok, Ok, you got a pint outta me.
Stop fishing for more.
Some of the officers involved with this case Ive never heard of. Yep, dragged in from different divisions I know.
Like I said before, its really odd that this bloke never left a report behind. Maybe he did but there is no comment of it.
By the way, has anyone read through the whole of Saddlers statement?
Had me doubled up...especially the part after he got a kicking from the Dockers.
'Feeling my wounds' ! Sounds like Eduardos Jack The Knacker !!
You shouldnt laugh eh?...but sometimes...
Cheers again Masser Scott !!
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 6:34 pm: |
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Hi Monty
I did wonder if the two shillings was money she'd got from Sadler. After all, he gave her half a crown for a bonnet. He became pretty fuddled, and she may have squeezed more out of him later.
Suppose she was meeting her pimp there (though why there, and at that time, is beyond me). She might have hidden the money there in case the pimp searched her.
But that won't do, because she'd surely have hidden the money closer to home. Plus, the money was wrapped in old newspaper, which makes it look a bit unlikely that Frances was the one who used it.
So I'm flummoxed.
I'm very puzzled that the police weren't able to date the newspaper. Surely if they'd taken it to an editor he'd have told them which newspaper it was from? Then a search through the archives? I find all that very odd.
Robert |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 524
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 4:14 am: |
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Robert,
Exactly !!
Its a odd location for Frances to choose...if indeed it was her money.
If not, its still strange. Hiding some money behind perhaps one of the most used pieces of equipment in that area does not make sense to me...never had.
Monty
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Stepan Poberowski
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 8:31 am: |
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www.policeorders.co.uk gives the further details of Flanagan's career:
Warrant No. 56870
08/12/1893 - promoted to sub-division inspector and moved to M Division (Southwark)
25/05/94 - moved to J Division
01/01/1900 - resigned.
All the best,
Stepan |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 100
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 3:36 pm: |
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Theory time:
I suspect that Frances had nothing to do qwith the money. I also have to state that the money was likely dropped. It would make more sence to hide it in a cubby hole or such that you thought was out of the way or very unobtrusive. Too many people would be about the pump.
The newspaper makes sense if the person hiding the money wanted to conceal it even more but still the pump would not work for the reason I stated. Someone might have a use for the newspaper such as lining a pair of shoes with holes in them. Just food for thought. Neil |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 11:45 am: |
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Stepan,
I missed your post. Sorry.
Thanks for the tip off.
Neil,
I too have to acknowledge that the money may have nothing to do with Frances or Sadler.
But its one hell of an odd place to hide it.
Monty
No, you cant have one extra on the leg side...but you can have five !
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John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 7:16 am: |
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Chris Scott/ Stepan/ Monty
Just found this thread. Moving forward in time, James Flanagan who retired from the police force in 1900 looks to be the James Flanagan, 48, born Ireland, Keeper of Sessions House in London at the time of the 1901 census.. His address is shown only as Sessions House, Newington, London and he lived with his wife “Emilie” (that’s the spelling in the census on-line) Flanagan 36, employment status “worker”, born Islington, and 10-year old son Herbert J Flanagan, also “worker” born Mile End. Chris is right that Emily Arlett was 16 in 1881 so I am sure this is “our” James Flanagan and Emily.
(Census reference RG 13 piece272 folio 8 page 7)
John
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 71
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 2:09 pm: |
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I very much doubt that the money belonged to Coles.
Perhaps it was some sort of secret pick up. One person leaves money for another who knows where to find it.
But 2/- in ready cash and newspaper in the East End would both be odd. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1522
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 4:07 am: |
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John, Phil,
John,
Many thanks for the interesting new info. I agree, it seems so.
Phil,
A pick up? Yeah plausable but its located in one of the most frequented of places. I can think of better hideyholes.
Monty
"I thought we'd agreed, I thought we'd talked it out, Now when I try to speak, She says that I don't care, She says I'm unaware, And now she says I'm weak ."- Joe Barnett
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