|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
David Waters
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 12:40 pm: | 
|
I am a descendant of Frank Cater, whose handbill was found on Catherine Eddowes, as listed in The Times report. (I believe the number of the shop in Bethnal Green Road may be incorrectly reported)
My question is "are the artefacts still held at Scotland Yard, and are they viewable?" As you can imagine, the advert/handbill is of great interest to us. David (no account with you)
|
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 136
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 4:35 pm: |
|
Hello David,
You ask does the handbill published by Frank Cater
and alleged in THE TIMES to have been found on JTR
victim Catherine Eddowes, survive?
I have had a quick look in Stewart P. Evans & Keith Skinner's "THE ULTIMATE JACK THE RIPPER SOURCEBOOK: An Illustrated Encyclopedia" (Paperback Edition, Constable & Robinson,London, 2001), and whilst they quote details of Eddowes' possessions from the Inquest Report, which is filed in the Corporation of London Records Office.
These include the written statements of witnesses at the Inquest;(Evans & Skinner page222 and following).
As far as I could see, by hastily consulting the Sourcebook index, the name "Cater" is not indexed. Neither is it indexed in THE JACK THE RIPPER A To Z by Paul Begg, Martin Fideo, and Keith Skinner (Headline Book Publishing, London, 1991).
I suggest you go to a big library and consult both those books, and -even better- go to the Corporation of London Records Office.
Good Luck. JOHN RUFFELS. |
David Waters
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 5:09 pm: |
|
Thanks John
we were at the LMA yesterday!! on other research, and didn't realise they would have those sort of details. Will ask next time!
Thanks for the book information.
Surely all the listed items (long list) of things found on Eddowes would have been police evidence? Does anyone know if these things survive? |
d higgins
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 7:07 am: |
|
hi david
i just thought id let you know that most of the artifacts found from the ripper murders are held at the scotkland yard national crime museum.
unfortunatly you are not allowed to view them unless invited to do so by someone very high within the met police.
my uncle was fortunate enough to be uinvited last year with some work colleagues, so he was able to look at the ripper artifacts they have there
hope that helps |
David Waters
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 12:39 pm: |
|
Thanks Mr Higgins
Another lead to follow.
David}} |
Julian Rosenthal
Sergeant
Username: Jules
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 8:18 pm: |
|
G'day David,
Andy and Sue Parlour also have the shawl believed to belong to Catherine. You might want to contact them for some more information.
Jules |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 550
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 3:26 pm: |
|
Hi, John, David, etc.,
The Cater item was not a handbill, it was a calling card, so quite small. I have not heard that it might still exist.
If you read the dissertation by Andrew Morrison "Shrouded in Mystery : Stephen White, Amos Simpson and 'Catharine Eddowes' Shawl'" you'll see that this shawl, if such it is, donated to the police museum by the relatives of Met sergeant Amos Simpson has a complicated and muddied history. The article states in part:
"This shawl is now in Scotland Yard's Black Museum having been placed there by Simpson's great great nephew. It is a silk screen printed shawl with a dark green background, brown edges and a pattern of flowers on it. This sounds quite like Eddowes' dress which the East London Observer (10 Oct 1888) described as 'made of green chintz, the pattern consisting of Michaelmas daises'. A section of the shawl has been cut out, reputedly because it was blood-stained. Southeby's were asked to give a date for the shawl and they guessed that it was made around about the early 1900's but said that dating such things was difficult. Simpson being on 'Special Duties' with two or three others is similar to what [Sgt.] White said and Simpson could have been the officer who White said found Eddowes' body. However, if we look at the timing of events that night there is a problem. . ."
Best regards
Chris George |
Julian Rosenthal
Sergeant
Username: Jules
Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 8:48 pm: |
|
G'day CG,
Now I'm confused (and no smart comments please). I've got a letter from Sue Parlour saying that Simpson was one of their relatives and the shawl was handed down through subsequent family members.
I'll try and find the letter and post it in it's entirety tomorrow.
Cheers |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 552
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 2:09 pm: |
|
Hi, Jules
Yes do post the letter from the Parlours if you would. I think, but may be mistaken, that the material that Andy and Sue have might be another piece of the same cloth that is in the museum.
All the best
Chris |
Julian Rosenthal
Sergeant
Username: Jules
Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 8:55 pm: |
|
G'day Chris,
here's an extract from Sue and Andy's emai dated 14 May 2002 and I think I had things a bit mixed up with my last post.
"Regarding Amos Simpson, when we first mentioned the shawl and Amos all the so-called experts said there was never a policeman by that name. We made them eat their words when we hunted him down. His family are very upright and honest, they have never tried to cash in on the shawl, which they might have done. We have the Great niece of Amos on tape talking about Amos and the shawl and she remembers that he got it while her was on special duties.
The bottom of 'N', his division, nearly reaches Mitr Square and would easily have been within a whistles reach, that is one scenario the other which we believe, is that Amos was on special duty with Sgt White who always ststed he was with two other officers when on undercover surveillance duty. His description of that night and are fits Mitre Square and as Met officers were on City ground they would not hang about for too long."
For me, this indicates that the shawl is still in posession of Simpson's relatives and not in the Police museum.
Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't followed it up.
I'll print off that post you've mentioned, but it looks like we're both talking about the same thing.
chers
Jules |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 318
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 10:41 am: |
|
Hello, All
I wrote Scotland Yard about this shawl and have been told it was returned because it had no provenance.
Dave |
Ken Proctor
Detective Sergeant
Username: Gizmo
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 1:21 pm: |
|
Hell All, Does anyone know if the cut portion of Kates apron found in Goulston st. is still in some evidence locker somewhere. I believe i read somewhere that there was no "staining" on the apron itself that Kate was wearing. The portion found in Goulston St. apparently had blood and fecal stains on it. In light of the fact that this piece of evidence, apart from anatomical souvenirs,seems to be the only material trophy taken by the ripper in any of the murders, i suspect it was cut and taken for a practical purpose. On countless occasions upon gutting and cleaning deer,caribou and moose, in order for me to remove the heart, kidneys and liver, i have seriously inflicted good size cuts to my free hand. This is a result of needing my free hand to feel my way around and assist in the separation of flesh. IN addition these "operations" are performed in perfect lighting conditions and in no haste. I suspect Jacky may have indeed cut himself and removed the piece of apron as a temporary bandage. If it was just a case of him neeeding to wipe his bloody hands then he would just as well wiped them on Kates apron. "GIZMO"
"Hey Rookie----You were good" (Field Of Dreams)
|
Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
|
Hi,
I have an inkling clothing evidence was destroyed when the files transferred buildings.
I think I heard that.
I'm pretty sure about that. I suppose Scotland Yard would be the people to ask .  They're pretty open these days.
Joan. |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
