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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 948
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 7:43 am: |       |
Shannon, I would have thought it would have to be intentional. If it was an accident, he'd hardly have forced her to bleed to death.
Robert |
Petra Zaagman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
Indeed, well, I'm not an expert when it comes to bleeding to death.. hehe.
But, IF it was an accident, it might explain the lack of mutilations..
Imagine Jack trying to get Liz's attention. He pinns her against the wall, but Liz slips and lands in the mud. Indeed, I agree with you, Jack landed on top of her. Like 'Now listen!' because she can't get away. If she doesn't listen now, he can't figure another 'normal' way to make her listen. The knife comes out to scare her, like 'listen up, or else..'
In those days, in Whitechapel, a knife WAS something to be aware of, because any man carrying a knife couldbe the Ripper. But, Liz KNEW him, and most likely didn't expect him to be the killer, so she still doesn't listen and maybe even laughts at him. He put it against her throat, and, as Shannon said, she struggs and here's the cut. But, we must notice it was dark, and if I'm right, his shadow fell over Liz. He maybe didn't see the wound, and because Liz's windpipe was cut, she can't scream.
She's quiet! Jack might have thought she finally listens and says what he wants to say.
The fact that 'Liz finally paid attention' satisfied him, because he tried his best, and he's so glad about it he noticed Liz had her throat cut when she was near-dead.
This wasn't what he meant to do, and it might have made him panic. He leaves in panic, without mutilating. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 293
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 1:45 pm: | |
Hi everyone,
I am a fine one to talk, but,Hitchcock would have been proud of all of us, the endings are so shocking, we are most certainly not short of imagination.
Richard. |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 425
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 1:51 pm: | |
I believe he would have made Chief Inspector on this discussion board already after a week.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 123
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 2:23 pm: | |
Petra, had it been an accident in the dark, whoever it was that stabbed her would have realized that something was wrong by the sudden warm wet sensation on his hand as the blood sprayed from her neck in the direction the blade came from. Even in the dark, that sensation couldn't be mistaken. Panic would have set in and the person would have either fled; which didnt happpen, or her hands would have been around her throat and bloody, or he would have called for help, which also didnt happen as no one in the club, or on the street came for help, and Lewis being right there would have heard something when he entered the yard seeing as how the gate was wide open...
Shannon |
Petra Zaagman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 8:01 am: | |
Hi Shannon!
You're right about that..
I've been thinking, and maybe.. there were bruises on her shoulders, right?
and, she wore a neckerchief, didn't she?
Maybe 'Jack' hold her shoulders, and I don't know whether this might be true or not, but maybe the blood was absorbed by her neckerchief too.
There is another possible scenario, which maybe explains the 'double event':
What you said happened, and, accidently or not, Liz is bleeding to death. If Jack HAD his hands on Liz's shoulders, and IF the neckercief absorbed the blood, he might not have notcied it at once. If he does notice, he panics, but we can't forget that Jack saw women bleeding to death more often. He knows she's dying, and doesn't let her go.
Why? Maybe, if he indeed paniced, didn't know what to do, and it simply doesn't appeal to let her go and run away. The fact that she's dying might be irresistable for him, so he decides not to let her go. But, he didn't intend to kill her, it was accidently, and once she really passed away, Jack realizes that he's got to go or to hide, because he hears Diemschutz coming.
In panic, he walks away. I think his route might have been the one I attached.
Time for Monty to check out if this route is corresponding with the times of death.
If it takes definetly shorter to walk that route, I've got an explaination:
Jack was in panic, he doesn't really realize where he's going, he's just trying to get away.
Maybe he walked in or out some alleyways.
But, except for panic, he feels the thrill of murder again, even though he maybe didn't intend.
That's why one victim wasn't enough, he didn't have the chance to mutilate Liz because Diemschutz comes in. |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 426
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 1:31 pm: | |
Something that has always struck me as relevant in the Stride murder is the inescapable fact that she was in male company all that night, possibly right up to the point she was murdered.
This highly unusual circumstance has always led me to believe that Stride was not in fact a victim of Jack.
Jack as a killer is relatively easy to type caste; his victims female and solitary, show him to be of low dominance, and his choice of such victims and the isolated murder sites show that his selection was based on his own anxiety and fear, not only of discovery, but perhaps more importantly of direct conflict with another more dominant male.
Generally speaking both rapists and killers will rarely target a victim in the company of an adult male, however in the case of a killer of the nature of Jack they would deliberately and painfully avoid any potential threat to their low dominance, which more or less means in this case, any other male.
Jack’s only opportunity to exert his low dominance would have been in very confined situations with a single female.
The only individual that would have attacked Stride that night would have been a dominant individual motivated by rage and jealousy who would have welcomed the opportunity to confront another male and then establish his dominance over both male and female.
This individual’s rage and jealousy would indicate that he knew Stride.
I hesitate to mention this, but Jack’s true crimes were ‘stranger’ crimes.
This one was not.
|
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 6:08 am: | |
Petra
Some thoughts for you if you are considering the route Jack took between Dutfield's Yard and Mitre Square. And before the wrath of various people descends upon my head I will qualify that the following is based on the assumption that both women were victims of the ripper and that he was disturbed by Diemschutz and yes I know that neither thing can be proved.
Having been disturbed by Diemschutz, as he runs from the yard his first thought is going to be to get out of the direct line of sight as quickly as possible, as he knows that the body has been discovered and that people are going to come running out of the club looking for him any second. So he is not likely to head up the road towards Commercial Road, a long straight road, but rather would run down and round the corner into Fairclough Street as soon as possible. Reaching the end of Fairclough Street he comes to Back Church Lane and has a choice of directions to go in. To the north is the well lighted Commercial Road, to the south is a maze of more darkened back streets. At that moment, with escape from a potential mob in his mind, I would say he is more likely to turn south.
Now he has a problem. By continuing to go south he will come to Cable Street, by turning west along Hooper Street he will come to Leman Street, both of these larger and better lighted roads and he doesn't want to get to one of those until he has cleaned himself up a bit and will be less obvious. But if he turns east he will find himself back in the very area in which he assumes there are men searching for him. So he takes the west turning on Hooper Street and then turns immediately north along the darker Gowers Walk.
Here maybe he stops to clean himself up, or maybe he doesn't want to do so until he gets himself completely out of the area he imagines is being searched. Maybe, as he travels up this lane, his mind becomes slightly more focussed having put some distance between himself and the murder, he is thinking more clearly and decides he needs to get right out of the potential search area and into the area north of Commercial Road, which is not likely to be searched until later and will give him some breathing space. So he runs up Gowers Walk and on reaching Commercial Road still bloody form the murder he dashes across as quickly as possible and into the nearest side street on the other side which is Church Lane.
On 1st October The Star contained a report that two men had seen a suspicious looking man who fit quite well with both Schwartz's and Lawende's descriptions (including the peaked cap) sitting in a doorway in Church Lane wiping his hands at about ten past one on the night of the murder.
Food for thought? |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 442
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 6:31 am: | |
Hi AP,
Was Jack the man seen by three other men talking with Kate Eddowes? If not, did Jack see that man, and perhaps the three witnesses too, before approaching Kate himself?
Would Jack have seen any of Mary Jane's previous male companions before he entered No.13?
Was Jack aware that at any moment someone living at 29 Hanbury Street could have gone into the back yard to find him 'negotiating' with Annie?
It doesn't strike me that Jack was an awful lot more bothered about all the potentially more dominant males he could easily have come face to face with at the scenes of his 'true' crimes, than he would have been had he encountered Liz at the entrance to Dutfield's Yard, and perhaps only realised he had a male audience when it was too late, or took advantage of the situation as soon as the other males had been persuaded to bugger off.
Love,
Caz
|
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 477
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 6:34 am: | |
Hi Alan,
A very interesting route description and -- although I don't know London that much (and just can limit myself to study the map), I think quite a probable one. And I absolutely agree with the conclusion that they both were Ripper victims.
However, what makes me wonder is the reason for it that you suggest. I have a question: Stride was killed lying down by getting her troat cut. Did he really get that much blood on him or needed to clean himself up at all? Just wondering...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 6:55 am: | |
I would imagine he would have to have blood on his hands at least unless he wore gloves. But one thing that has been pointed out before is that with the number of slaughterhouses in the district it may not have been that uncommon to see people with blood on their hands. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 320
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:52 am: | |
Petra, Alan,
Petra,
Takes around 12 mins to get from Berner st to Mitre sq (depends on gait and speed) via the most straight forward route.
I dont think its total panic, more preperation. Thats what was happening to him in those intervening minutes.
Alan,
I had a similar idea to you last summer. I tried to put myself in the footsteps of a man not in blind panic but someone who want to escape quick but draw no attention to this fact.
Like you, Im not condoning any theories but based it on Louis almost stumbling onto Jack.
My route was as yours from Berner st to Backchurch lane. But as I figured that though the cry is going for a Bobby instead of a search for a killer, so therefore I went north towards Commercial road using the people as cover till I got to Church lane. This would take minutes, around 8 Id say which brings the time to around 1.08am (near enough for 10 past ?) Out on to Whitechapel High st and east towards Aldgate and my desitnation which would have been a shadow of a doorway watching the ladies parade St Boltophs.
But that was me.
Monty
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 480
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 1:31 pm: | |
Hi Alan,
"I would imagine he would have to have blood on his hands at least unless he wore gloves."
OK. That may be possible. I just had to ask since it made me wonder. About the slaughter-houses: yes, that may be so, but I think his self-preservation would tell him nevertheless that showing up with blood on his hands in public spaces, wouldn't feel safe, especially as he's aware of what he has just done and if he was panicing.
A very appealing scenario, Alan. And quite interesting about the man in Church Lane wiping his hands -- I missed that one.
Monty,
So! You've been out running again! Wish I was in your good shape...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 433
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 4:25 pm: | |
Caz
you are a card.
My point being that a pair or a couple are rarely targeted by a killer - I know it does happen but the killer generally quickly kills the male by shooting to remove him.
Other males in the vicinty or time zones you mention would not be associated by a killer with a solitary woman as they would be disassociated with the victim at the time of the attack.
Simple really. If you as a woman want to walk home safely in a suspect district the best protection you can take is a male, so that you by association become a 'couple'. That male could be four foot high and five stone but as a 'couple' you would still represent a threat to the attackers dominance... by association.
Read Konrad Lorenz if you still don't believe me. A female wolf spoken for is spoken for and no male will come atwixt that formula. This does apply to our own social behaviour as he has shown. |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 89
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 6:44 pm: | |
AP
I'm just going to be an ornery little devil now and point out that two of the most famous serial killers in history, The Zodiac and David Berkowicz, both preyed on couples, and that of the three couples known to be attacked by the Zodiac, in two cases the man survived and the woman died. |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 435
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 2:08 am: | |
Alan
yes I was thinking about the activities of the Zodiac and Son of Sam when I wrote the note.
If my memory serves me well - and these days it does not - the fact that two men survived hits by the Zodiac was pure luck and happenstance. The Zodiac was a strange one, as he also targeted lone males. Without getting too deep into this I do feel that killers like Zodiac and Son of Sam are a very different proposistion to the subject we discuss here.
But you still make a very good point from a behavioural point of view, and as consequence I roll on my back and wag my tail. |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 3:11 am: | |
Alan, at first, Zodiac wounded the man, keeping him alive long enough to witness the brutality to his lover (he targeted pairs in make out spots), and his helplessness to stop the killing; after which he left the man to die, in some cases the man survived.
The main problem with serial killers is their intelligence. After Son of Sam found that a knife didn't kill his victims, he switched to the largest cal hand gun available. He was willing to sacrifice the noise factor for a lethal kill with one shot. Zodiac switched to killing people who were alone and started killing more often once the SFPD had broken his code which upset him.
The same could be true of a serial killer in any century. If they are having a problem selecting a victim, or make a mistake and a victim survives, or they believe the authorities are close to catching them, they can and sometimes do alter either their location, or their killing habits in an effort to further confuse the authorities. They also like to keep close tabs on the police, enjoying the confusion they cause as the police try to make sense of their crimes. Its some sort of a supiority complex where the killer believes they wont get caught and even feel they have to provide a clue to the police, some of which are red herrings. While lethal, to them, its all a game and one that doesnt end until they are caught or killed
Shannon |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 146
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 3:22 am: | |
As opposed to wearing gloves, the killer could have just as easily put his hands in his coat pockets along with the knife, just in case he needed it for self defense. It was night, dark, and had been raining earlier that evening, not many people would have noticed him under those conditions, and even on the main streets would not have attracted much attention once he was a few blocks away from the murder as those who were out were more interested in seeing the murder site and wouldn't pay much attention to a lone man walking slowly in the other direction (as opposed to someone walking at a brisk gate or running away from the crime area).
Shannon |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 5:00 am: | |
Not entirely correct Shannon
In the case of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen nobody knows which one was shot first. It was probably David as his body was found next to the car whereas Betty Lou was some distance away and shot in the back. However he was killed with a single bullet to the head and would have died instantly.
With Mike Mageau and Darlene Ferrin, Mike was definitely shot first and the Zodiac shot to kill, only failing to do so because Mageau jumped across into the back seat whereupon the killer turned his gun on Darlene pretty much ignoring Mike. He obviously thought they were both dead because he left the car and then returned after Mike made a noise, firing a further two bullets into both bodies.
With Cecilia Ann Shepard and Bryan Hartnell, Bryan asked him to attack him first when the pair were tied up on the ground as he stated that he was "too chicken" to watch Cecilia die.
Donald Harden broke the code before the Shepard/Hartnell attack, so he didn't switch to killing lone people at that point, and in fact there are only two lone killings attributed to him, Cheri Jo Bates which was before any of the other killings and Paul Lee Stine the cab driver he killed in San Francisco, so also there is no evidence whatsoever that he started killing more often after this.
Sorry to be anal about it, but the Zodiac is a long time fascination of mine. |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 6:02 am: | |
Can move to another board if you like...
Alan, Celia and Brian (I couldn't remember the names) was the one I recalled where he had the male watch. Since the other couple had only the female killed, thougth it was the same circumstances. Last I heard was that they had discovered who it was by DNA from the saliva on the stamps used to mail the letters to the San Francisco news papers; not sure if that is factual either. Not sure about the last letter either, did they ever decode it?
Shannon |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 91
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 7:28 am: | |
Shannon
I tried to create a new thread on the Shades of Whitechapel board to answer this but it seems to have disappeared. I've written to Stephen to see if he knows why but in the meantime I will reply here and then delete this post if the other one ever shows up.
So, yes, he did seem to want to play with Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard which did not do with any of his other victims. On the other hand, while they were tied up he kept telling them that he was only intending to rob them and take their car. Then he suddenly said "I'm going to have to stab you people now" to which Bryan made his request to be stabbed first as he was too "chicken" to watch Cecilia suffer and the Zodiac replied "I'll do just that" and got to work straight away. It isn't really certain whether the fact that Bryan was still alive and conscious when he attacked Cecilia was intentional or not. He doesn't seem to have been terribly thorough about such things as they were both still alive when he left, Cecilia died in hospital much later.
As far as I know the second cypher has never been satisfactorily decoded. There have been a number of suggestions but none which made much sense.
The main suspect has always been Arthur Leigh Allen. Robert Graysmith accused him in his book (under the pseudonym Robert Hall Starr) and Dave Toschi believed that Allen was the Zodiac.
The case against him is strong. He lived in Vallejo during the two murders there, was doing some study in Riverside College when Cheri Jo Bates was killed there, can be placed in San Francisco around the time when Paul Lee Stine was murdered, and most damningly was stopped near Lake Berryessa on the day of the Shepard/Hartnell incident with bloody knives on the floor of his car which he said he had been using to kill chickens, which may have been a joke based on Bryan Hartnell's comment.
In 1972 Toschi obtained a search warrant for his trailer, and at this point the Zodiac letters suddenly stopped for over two years, maybe because he knew he was under observation. They stopped again when he was arrested for child molestation in 1974 and there were no letters during the time he spent in prison for this, but they started again after his release in 1977.
In 1991 Toschi again obtained a search warrant for his apartment and seized his Zodiac Sea Wolf watch, given him by his mother in 1967 which featured a symbol very similar to the one used on the Zodiac letters. He died in 1992 from heart failure brought on as a complication of Diabetes and kidney failure.
As far as I know there were DNA tests attempted but they were inconclusive. If there have been more recently I would be very interested to hear about them. |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 149
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 12:12 pm: | |
Alan, wasnt one of the member of the police force (wont swear it was Toschi) implicated in forging some of the letters to get a second look at the case years later? Hate it when you have to go from memory, and the information you had was wrong to begin with...
Shannon |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 12:26 pm: | |
Shannon
Absolutely correct. Dave Toschi was accused of faking the final Zodiac letter which arrived in April 1978 by SFPD Cheif Charles Gain. The suspicion was based on the fact that a few years earlier Toschi had sent three fan letters under fake names to the writer Armistead Maupin who had included him as a real life character in a radio series, suggesting that Maupin give his character a bigger part. Toschi was often accused of being a publicity seeker with unorthodox methods (he was the real life inspiration behind Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry). As a result of the scandal he was taken off the investigation but re-instated about a year later. Counter rumour says that Gain had been using the incident as an opportunity to scupper Toschi who at the time was being tipped to take over from him as SFPD Cheif of Police. |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 5:13 pm: | |
"Jack as a killer is relatively easy to type caste; his victims female and solitary, show him to be of low dominance, and his choice of such victims and the isolated murder sites show that his selection was based on his own anxiety and fear, not only of discovery, but perhaps more importantly of direct conflict with another more dominant male."
No evidence exists to support this claim. He slew at will and with great violence in the heart of the most populated city in the world--how do you figure "low dominance" for that? The murder sites were anything but isolated--there were thousands of people around each corner from where the bodies lay. Did you notice him running away from Schwartz and the Pipeman? What did he do when confronted there? THEY ran away and HE stayed--and then he killed the woman. Surely this man was anything but shy and retiring.
Saddam
|
Petra Zaagman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 7:05 am: | |
Hi Glenn!
I think he DID need to clean up anyway.
I mean, after the murders, every bloodstained man was suspicious. So, as soon as Jack was able to think clear, he realized he threw very much attention the way he looked. He cleaned up, and, except for the Stride murder, that must have taken some time. Liz was not as much mutilated as the other victims. But, when cutting a throat, (though I don't have the experience myself) it bleeds very much, because he certainly cut some important vains. These vains are always under big pressure. When he cut this, the blood came out like a fountain. No matter how quik he steps backward, it's just messy. |
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possible route for Jack