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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 826
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 5:40 am: |       |
Hi Shannon
If Kate had no intention of prostituting herself, instead intending to get money from her daughter, it would have made more sense for her to have pretended to be still groggy at BPS, spent the night there, and gone to her daughter in the morning. Her daughter wouldn't have been in an overly generous mood after being knocked up in the middle of the night!
Re why she was in the Square, she may have picked up a customer in the High Street. Alternatively, she may have lost something and been hoping to retrieve it - she had been drunk earlier, even rolling around on the floor.
PS She must have had an awful lot of free drinks bought for her, to get so drunk.
Robert |
Shannon Christopher
Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 34
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 6:33 am: | |
Robert, speaking from personal experience, getting out of a jail is the first thing on your mind once you have been arrested, drunk or not. The beds are not comfortable, the swill is horrrible, and you have to urinate basically in public. Besides, having the constables either making fun of you or trying to take advantage of you is no picnic for a female, especially one who has been brougth in drunk. Remember, its 1888 where she is and not present day with rules for safeguarding prisoners.
If you look at the map, taking the shortcut through the square cuts a few minutes off the trip to Lloyd street from BPS.
Again, I believe that she was honestly on her way to her daughters. I would rather show up at 03:00AM and wake my daughter, than to return home with a hangover never having made it there.
Lastly, personal preference; if I were in a bar having a drink with the guys and wanted a bit of female company and didnt want my friends to get the wrong impression about my social habits, I would prefer the slightly upscale company of Kate over the other "unfortunates." 23 years in the navy did teach me a thing or two...
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 827
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 7:27 am: | |
Hi Shannon
Well, we'll have to disagree over whether Kate might have expected to get money from her daughter if she turned up there in the middle of the night - and smelling strongly of drink, to boot.
Re the station conditions, of course we only have the police's word on this, but it does seem to me that her discharge from BPS was perfectly good-humoured and even a shade comical. And from the amount of urine in her bladder when she was killed, it looks as if she'd already urinated at the station, and so could probably bank on not doing so again for some time (in the absence of further drinks) - though I'm going on my own physiological reactions here!
Re the free drinks, she may for all I know have appeared upscale compared with the others, but as she got drunker, she'd have looked less so - yet she still got free drinks, no strings attached?
Robert |
Shannon Christopher
Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 8:27 am: | |
Hey Robert,
I agree, the release from the police station was humerous. Guessing since it was a Saturday night they had a lot of other things to contend with, and one less person in there jail made the night that much easier. I think its one of the reasons the PC made his rounds at that time of night. Hard to imagine being let go at 01:00 AM.
About the free drinks, if she joined a group of gentleman who were all drinking heavliy I can see her having a good time on them...
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 830
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
Hi Shannon
If it was all so innocent it's a pity one of her fellow drinkers didn't - as far as we know - come forward afterwards. Still, I'll concede that she could have got drunk for free - especially if she used her "I know who the Ripper is" line.
It's a great shame that any enquiries the police did make at pubs - not just in the Eddowes case but the other cases too - concerning who the victims had been with, left with etc - seem to have been lost.
Robert |
Shannon Christopher
Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 4:37 pm: | |
Robert, I agree.. Have to admit that I would have loved to see her imitation of the fire brigade... Actually if I had the chance I would have wanted to meet her when we were both 20 or so. Bet she was a bit of a scrapper. Seriously, if anything good came from hers or the other murders its that 115 years later we are still discovering things about these women, their lives, their families, an life in general in a place that we might no otherwise have visited.
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 275
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 4:00 am: | |
Andy,
Thanks for clearing the important stuff up !!
I like Raymond. No frills. His effort in the cup final a few years ago, for me, was far better than Freddies.
As for the Van....I cant comment.....Peter Wood is watching and after the hammering we had on Saturday I think its best I keep schtum !!
....oh yeah, Jack....no I mean Kate...erm....blimey, you're right....it is easy to loose the thread !!
Monty
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David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 150
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:52 pm: | |
Hi, Glenn
On the "Why Barnett" thread, you wrote "Kate was arrested for drunkedness the night of the murder; I have a feeling that wasn't the first time..."
Your hunch is right--she was charged September 21st, 1881 for being drunk, disorderly, and using obscene language (Shelden, Catherine Eddowes, Jack the Ripper Victim, pg. 23}. Neal writes that she was discharged without a fine.
I highly recommend Neal's book. Exhaustive timelines on Kate's life, and the life of Annie Phillips with photographs of Kate's great-granddaughter.
Cheers,
Dave |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:59 pm: | |
David, the records back to 1881 show her being arrested for drunk in public, is there anything about her having been detained or charged with prostitution?
Shannon |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 151
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 1:23 pm: | |
Shannon,
There's nothing I've ever read about an arrest for prostitution. However, let me point out Kate's use of aliases. Also, if she only practiced infrequently, she may never have been caught.
Sorry, but I just don't believe Kate happened to cross through Mitre Square on her way to Bermondsey in the middle of the night, and that she just happened to run into Jack the Ripper in the darkest and most secluded area of that square.
It's more reasonable to me that she sometimes resorted to prostitution when stuck in a tight spot and no other work or other means of obtaining money could be found. In my warm and well-fed world, I don't pass any judgement on her for that.
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 886
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 2:14 pm: | |
Shannon, I agree with Dave - just because we believe that she was a prostitute, doesn't mean we think she was rubbish. I rather like what I've heard of her, and I feel sorry for her and Kelly.
Robert |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 4:35 pm: | |
Robert, NO, I am the one of the ones who believes Kate WASN'T a prostitute. Bit of a drinking problem (OK, a big drinking problem) but overall a down on her luck lady that I think of all the victims had the most potiental had things been different for her earlier in her life...
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 888
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
Hi Shannon
Yes, I know your view on Kate - by "we" I mean, Dave, me and others.
I also think Liz would be working as a linguist if she were alive today.
There is a genuine puzzle as to why Kate should be operating slightly off her beaten track. But Kate being quite sharp, I believe she may have decided that with the Ripper about, she would be safer operating a little way outside the Whitechapel area - just bad luck someone else decided that night to shift his operations too.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 346
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 5:35 pm: | |
Hi Dave,
Thank you for the response -- and thanks for putting this discussion on my part back where it belongs; of course the Barnett thread is not the right place.
I must say I'm not surprised about the information you present, and I bet we could find her under other aliases for more arrests as well. I have thought about getting Neal's book for quite some time now, but I just haven't got around to it yet. But I think it's about time, since Kate is my "favourite" victim. Although she -- like all the others -- are a somewhat tragic figure I can only agree with Shannon that I too would have loved to see her impersonation of a fire engine. What a great character she must have been.
Shannon has unfortunately reached the conclusion, that just because I and many others believe her to be an occasional prostitute, we are passing judgements about her. Nothing could be further from the truth; I for my part have the greatest respect for her. But I know enough about prostitutes under poor circumstances during the 19th century -- and the conditions they lived under -- to say that there's no reason for excluding her from that line of occupation along with the other women. That doesen't make her a bad person and I agree with Robert that she deserves the greatest possible sympathy.
Shannon, I naturally won't go that far to say, that serious alcoholism automatically meant a poor woman was a prostitute, but it is a fact that the two nevertheless go together, whether we like it or not, especially if we add poverty and the absence of a permanent place to sleep in to the puzzle. Her earlier convictions for obscene language and drunk also points in this direction; hardly a behaviour of an ordinary, innocent woman just suffering from bad luck.
I believe that Dave put it correctly, that "she sometimes resorted to prostitution when stuck in a tight spot and no other work or other means of obtaining money could be found." I couldn't have said it better myself.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 152
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
Hi, Glenn
It's a great little book--while under fifty pages, it's full of information. Also included are short sections on people associated with Mary Kelly and George Chapman and his victims.
Kate's my favorite victim too, mostly because of her behavior as she's leaving the police station. I definitely agree people should avoid condemning her (and on the other hand, romanticizing her). Rather take her for what she was, which was human.
Cheers,
Dave |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 153
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
I forgot to mention just for general interest, that it might be that some Americans (like me) don't really understand what hop-picking was like. There's a movie called "Last Orders" which has a scene with hop-pickers in Kent during the 1930s, filmed in what I think the director said was the last such field left in England. Somebody mentioned that there was a festive atmosphere associated with that activity, and that's how it's portrayed in the movie.
Cheers,
Dave |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 348
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:02 pm: | |
Hi, Dave
Right you are, mate. I'll get he book as soon as possible.
All the best 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 889
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:12 pm: | |
Hi Dave
I was thinking of buying Neal's books, but by the time I was somewhere into action mode I got the impression they'd all sold out. Are they still available?
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 154
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:21 pm: | |
Hi, Robert
I think I heard that about the Annie Chapman book, but I'm not sure about the Kate Eddowes book. If it is out of print, I'd slip an email to Neal (his address is listed in his profile)--maybe he's got some copies stashed around his house he'd be willing to sell.
Cheers,
Dave
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 891
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:29 pm: | |
OK, thanks Dave.
Robert |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 83
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 9:33 pm: | |
David, here is a bit of information about the hop picking...
http://www.wadhurst.org.uk/wadhurst/trefoil/hops.htm
Shannon |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 156
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 10:00 pm: | |
Thanks, Shannon--I enjoyed that link. I think I saw an earlier incarnation of myself in the stocks.
Drunk Again,
Dave |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 712
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 8:12 am: | |
G'day Dave,
Which one, left or right?
LEANNE |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 353
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 8:23 am: | |
Hi dave,
Either way, you look kinda defiant...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 9:18 am: | |
Eddowes was seen soliciting five minutes before her murder by three witnesses, she didn't in their opinion seem in any distress, she had in all probability been picked up by JTR shortly after being released from the cells and took him into Mitre square, and i speculate that she had used Mitre Square on previous occasions.
Why all the wild speculation about going to meet somebody, drinking in gentlemens clubs etc. She will have been still half cut at her release at 1:00 a.m. from the cells, with no money in her pocket for lodgings, she did what she had done on other occasions solicite for some money.
Some have speculated that JTR was a foreigner, there is evidence however of him talking to his victims shortly before he murdered them namely Chapman Stride and Eddowes but if he was a foreign person, then he must have had a good command of English to talk to and pick up prostitutes.
And finally Speculation on these boards sometimes beggars belief, but one is entitled to their opinion i suppose, the victor of El Alemien being the main offender begorra.
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