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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 392
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 10:53 am: |       |
Hi All,
I know it's been said before, but I do feel strongly that whoever killed Stride would have to be in a state of utter recklessness to risk hanging around near Dutfield's Yard for longer than absolutely essential - if, that is, he is aware that the woman's earlier assault has been witnessed. This holds true regardless of whether her killer is also her assailant.
If the killer isn't quick about it, a departing witness has only to alert the first person he meets to what he has seen for help to arrive at the scene before Stride's killer has finished with her - fatal for his neck as well as hers, whoever he is.
But if he leaves her alive, and help then arrives, Stride is the best witness of all, so it could still prove fatal for Jack's neck if it’s him she describes and he is later identified, whereas if it’s Kidney, he only risks being convicted of assault if she presses charges this time.
It makes absolute sense to me that if Jack attacked Stride he would have killed her swiftly and hurried on to the next. And if he was not the man who was seen assaulting Stride initially, what a nice little bonus for Jack, knowing that any description the witness(es) gave would be of someone else, putting the police on entirely the wrong track – the opportunist killer could not have planned it any better.
Love,
Caz
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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 393
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 10:57 am: | |
PS Just seen your post, Robert (C).
Great idea! |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 128
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:12 am: | |
Hi Caz
Thanks, I liked yours to. I think it was 'the Star' (which may be a bit unreliable)that said that the man Scwartz saw was slightly drunk or tipsy, which may have made him a little careless.
All the best
Rob
P.S. glad they caught that bloke from Upper Norwood. Funny I use to work up in Westow Hill, like Diemschultz |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 334
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:20 am: | |
Hi Caz and Rob C,
Very interesting views from both of you. Your idea is as good as any, Rob -- can't find anything at the moment that should contradict it.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 874
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:32 am: | |
Hi Rob
Have to think about that one. But I take it you mean he cut her throat BEFORE she'd started - otherwise too risky - for him!
PS We'd probably best steer clear of the recent Double Event - isn't it now sub judice?
Robert |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 129
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:35 am: | |
Robert
My eyes just watered.
And you are quite right. Thank you
Rob |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 283
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 12:24 pm: | |
Folks,
Robert's knee scenario.
Im not knee-knocking it, just trying to get it clear, but wouldnt this be a) difficult to pull off and b) end in a whole lot of mess down ones front ?
The only way around it is Liz to face away from her disptacher...now I ask you...wheres the fun in that ?
Or is it a case of, "hold on luv, just while I move a'rand" ?
It just seems awkward for me....am I wrong ??
Monty
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Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 130
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 2:42 pm: | |
Hi Monty
It would think it would be impossible if he was right handed, left handed, possible depending on how dextrous he was.
Point b is the tricky one. I am no expert on this, but if I understand correctly, if the left carotid artery was cut than the blood would spurt of to her left and away from him. And I would think after that there wouldn't be much gushing of blood afterwards. If he was quick this would only take a couple of seconds, so if any blood was on him it would be minimal. This is only guess work so I could be completely wrong.
Rob
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Jeff Hamm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 89
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 4:50 pm: | |
Hi Caz,
Nice post! I've suggested similar before, but not anywhere near as clearly as you've managed. Also, you've added quite a few more important points which makes the decision to kill Stride rather than just flee after being spotted less ... unreasonable (if one can really use that term in such a decision?). Perhaps it's better said that you've provided one line of thinking that her Killer's decision making may have followed.
- Jeff |
Jeff Hamm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 90
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 5:03 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Good point about Cadoch during Chapman's murder. Indeed, if Jack continued while Cadoch was next door, then we need to consider both the possibility that 1) Jack knew Cadoch was there and continued anyway or 2) Jack was unaware of Cadoch's presence.
The latter may be the case as Cadoch only appears to have become aware of "Jack and Annie" because he heard noises, while he himself may not have made any (he's not going to be talking to himself, etc). So, Jack may not have been aware of Cadoch although Cadoch may have been aware of Jack.
But, Cadoch came outside and goes to the outhouse. This means he could have made some noise (opening and closing doors, and other sounds from an outhouse let's say) and so he could have been heard by Jack.
If Jack doesn't know about Cadoch it's a suggestion that Jack doesn't monitor his environment very well for risks. Not consistent with a "cool planner".
If, however, Jack is aware of Cadoch then either he's very cool under pressure or he evaluates the risk poorly. The latter is far more consistent with the location and time of Annie's murder. It also suggests a similar conclusion as the first option. The "very cool under pressure" description would suggest someone with better risk evaluation in the first place. But, there's no reason why "cool under pressure" but "poor risk evaluation" can't go tother; but in combination they point away from "Ted Bundy" type killers.
Anyway, good point.
- Jeff |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 5:11 pm: | |
Caz,
"Great idea!" ?
If I am not mistaken, did't you run a series of tests on the JtR/Stride BJ theory with hubby (old boards), and asked who was really vulnerable. Remember the repeating clamping teeth clip art image? Have new tests changed your mind?
Love,
Kevin
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 286
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:22 pm: | |
Rob,
Im being dim, sorry, but I still cant see it.
Would a yank up or back with Liz's scarf have any impact on the blood flow ?
Monty
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Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:45 pm: | |
Monty, it depends on the "yank" and if there was a knot where the scarf was tied. If the knot was to one side and the yank was hard enough, yes, it would momentarily constrict the blood flow to the carotid artery by causing a pressure point. If the killer placed a couple of fingers between the scarf and her neck and twisted it would strangle her same as if he were doing it with his hands.
Shannon |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 131
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 1:45 pm: | |
Hi Monty, Shannon
I think Shannon has described it alot better than I could.
Rob |
Jeff Hamm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 1:25 am: | |
Hi,
Earlier I posted a comparison between Stride and Eddowes throat wounds. I was just looking at the dissertation page at the "victim's wounds" article, and in the description of Stride it mentions her "legs were drawn up".
I admit I'm reaching a bit here, but this reminds me of the posture most of the Ripper victims' legs were in. Sort of bent at the knees with feet flat on the ground, rather than just laying full out. I know, I know, the descrition is vauge, but bear with me on an idea here.
Anyway, this kind of "leg position" could result in two different ways, but it may be a point in favour of Stride being a victim of Jack. First, if he strangles the victim while they are standing, then lays them down quietly, this "leg posture" could occur as he lowers a standing victim to the ground. If Cadoch did hear the attack on Annie, this corresponds to what he may have heard. A stiffled cry, then something being lowered to the ground and hitting the fence, so this is suggestive that this kind of attack sequence I'm suggesting isn't really without some connection to a Ripper killing.
If that's the general attack sequence, then Stride's legs being "drawn up" fits with this sequence, which suggests a common killer.
The other way this common leg posture could occur would be the idea of "posing" the body that I was toying with earlier in this thread. If Jack then deliberately poses the legs in this position (either to shock or to make the mutilations easier to perform), then Stride's legs being in this position suggests he flees during the Posing phase of things.
I know this is hardly conclusive, and is probably wrong, but it's interesting I think. Again, I'm not sure what a closer examination of various reports might give us, but I'm at work and don't have my reference material here to do it. So, I thought I would throw this to the forum as something we could look at and mull over for a bit. I admit, "legs drawn up" isn't a very clear description of the posture the legs were in, but it just sounds similar. Kelly's right leg, is even in this sort of "foot down, knee up" position, which makes me think a bit of posing in that case since she clearly was asleep, or in bed at least, when attacked.
- Jeff |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 84
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 2:50 am: | |
Jeff, Liz had a deformity in her leg as noted in her autopsy: [Dr. Phillips] "There is a deformity in the lower fifth of the bones of the right leg, which are not straight, but bow forward; there is a thickening above the left ankle. The bones are here straighter. No recent external injury save to neck."
May have been the natural position for her to lay...
Shannon
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 288
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 9:03 am: | |
Shannon, Rob,
Many thanks.
Monty
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Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 1:51 pm: | |
"...this possible sequence of events includes a consistent view of Jack's behaviour."
>>I think it constitutes a consistent view of the exact opposite of Jack's behaviour.
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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 401
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 1:27 pm: | |
Hi Kevin,
In Rob's BJ scenario, I imagined Jack getting out his large shiny knife before giving Liz the chance to get out his la.... well, you get the picture.
No new tests to report on, I'm afraid. 
Love,
Caz |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 133
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
Hi Caz, all
Caz, to give credit where it is due, I believe it was your idea originally.
If the scenario is correct than I think it would rule Jack out as being the murder. I agree with what Bob Hinton said on the 'Just a thought' thread, and that Stride knew her killer. I think the position the body was found in, rules Jack out.
Jeff made some very good points to the 'leg positions', cutting the throat and lowering the body to ground would probably leave the legs in a drawn up position. I think this scenario would apply to Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes but not Stride. If it did, why roll her onto her side?
I see Stride as a possible domestic murder, and too much of a coincidence that she was attacked twice on the same spot within fifteen minutes. And wouldn't it mean Jack had two different knives on him that night? hmmm I included Tabram as a victim of Jack......
Rob |
Jeff Hamm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 97
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 4:08 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Maybe rolling her onto her side makes cutting the throat easier (directs blood away?)? The victims appear to be in quite similar positions, but we wouldn't expect any of them to be exactly the same in all respects. Maybe this difference means nothing, maybe everything. I guess that what we're trying to figure out though!
Stride as a domestic murder probably works just as well as Stride as a victim of Jack, so it's hard to argue strongly for one over the other. I'm just trying to spot any and all similarities, then when we get that list, see if these are enough to decide "for Jack". If not, we're left with possible domestic/possible Jack. Differences, of course, also need to be compared. These need to be separated into "differences that might reflect the fact that we are comparing two different events" (i.e., two murders) and "differences that arise because we have two different murderers". Find one of the latter, and we're done. Unfortunately, I don't think we've found such a conclusive piece of evidence. So, in the end, we'll have to weigh the "similarities against the differences" and see which is more convincing. It won't be conclusive, so there will always be a debate, but at least we can put together the evidence lists. Maybe.
- Jeff |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 135
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 6:30 pm: | |
Hi Jeff
I agree with you completely, we will never probably know for sure. It would help if we were certain he was disturbed. The timings of the various witnesses are not 100% reliable. A couple of minutes either way could make a lot of difference. To me if Jack did kill Elizabeth Stride he would have rolled her onto her back after cutting her throat, but that was the moment he was disturbed. I still think it would be to much of a coincidence that she would have been attcked twice in the space of fifteen minutes. So who disturbed him? Mrs Mortimer? Leon Goldstein? Still I think the knife used is what convinces me the most that it wasn't Jacks work, but going back to what yo said, if he rolled her over, and then cut her throat, I would assume she would be unconscious, in that case he would possibly have strangled her first. In that was the case she would have tried defending herself and dropped the cachous.
The murder of Elizabeth Stride reminds me more of Francis Coles murder than any of the others.
Tricky one isn't it.
Rob |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 92
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 7:22 pm: | |
Open question: When Liz was found, among her possessions were 12 pieces of linen. Not that familiar with female hygiene of the period (no pun intended) what was used during menstruation?
Shannon |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 714
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 9:13 pm: | |
G'day Shannon,
The 12 pieces of linen were found on the victim Catharine Eddowes!
LEANNE
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Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 10:17 pm: | |
Leanne, yup.. with all the going back and forth, I mixed the two up. Still, what did the women of the day use for menstruation?
Shannon |
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