| Author |
Message |
    
Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 1:29 am: |       |
Hi everyone,
After reading up on other serial killers I'm inclined to think perhaps Rose was a Ripper victim, if she actually was murdered. The Yorkshire Ripper varied his level of mutilation and means of murder during his career. Could the Ripper have done the same? |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 247
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:00 pm: | |
Eric,
I see no reason to discount Rose completely.
I tell you what gets me about Rose.....the yard.
Nichols murdered outside Stable yard gates.
Chapman in the yard of 29 Hanbury St.
Stride in Dutfields yard.
Eddowes like Polly, outside gates of a yard (its purpose I do not know).
Mylett in Clarkes (Builder merchants) yard.
Yeah, I know Tabram and Kelly dont tie in but Im just wondering if its me.
Monty
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ETCisme@aol.com
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:12 pm: | |
Monty,
Excellent question. I hadn't thought about it before. I had always had Rose on my "not" list. Thanks for evoking a new train of thought for me.
Mikey (who has missed Monty greatly!) |
Jon Smyth
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 106
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:52 pm: | |
What an encouraging thread.
I thought I was the only one who was prepared to consider Rose as another Ripper victim.
I am cautious about such a conclusion, but, IF her killer used a garrotte then it would explain much about the 'swift & silent' attack on the established Ripper victims.
Then, we might have another explanation for the circular cut on the neck's of the previous victims.
Rose has not been discussed enough on these boards.
Regards, Jon |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 248
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 8:10 am: | |
Hi All,
Look how the body was positioned....remind you of anyone ?
I feel this may have been another one that Jack was disturbed while in the process.
As Eric mentions, Sutcliffe altered the way he operated so why not our boy ??
Rose has been too easily dismissed for me.
Monty
PS Mikey, been thinking of you too !! |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 331
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 10:59 am: | |
Yep, I can't see why Rose should be discounted either.
Love,
Caz |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 734
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 5:43 pm: | |
Hi all
Re garotting, for those (like me) who tend to include Stride on Jack's list, I feel there's a bit of a problem if we say that Stride was garotted. The knife grazed the border of her scarf. Now, I can see why her murderer might cut her in that manner - he found the first area of neck that wasn't covered by the scarf, because he didn't want to cut through the scarf. But if Jack is supposed to have made that cut there in order to obliterate the mark made by a garotte, then I feel it's a bit of a coincidence that the garotte ended up being placed round her neck at the exact borderline between scarf and neck.
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 249
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 3:48 am: | |
Robert,
I dont believe the throat cutting was made to obliterate garotte marks.
I hope to elaberate further when I finish work...which is where I am right now.
Back to the grindstone !!
Monty
 |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 251
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 5:54 am: | |
Questions that keep Monty awake at night.
# 78. How did Rose keep the handkerchief so neatly folded around her neck ?
# 79 If Rose passed out whilst lying on the ground how did she asphyxiate herself via her stiff collar when the ground itself would have supported her head ?
# 80 If Rose fell unconscious whilst being propped up (wall or something) then Id really like an answer to # 78…..how did she keep the hanky there when she ended up on the ground ?
# 81 How can you tell if the ground of a builders merchant yard (which I presume would have been in use ) has not been recently disturbed ? I suppose its to do with the fact that Rose was found in Mid December….frost and all that.
Help me sleep !!!!!
Monty
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 107
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 2:28 pm: | |
thanks monty now we'll all be awake at night! |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 757
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
Yes Monty, can't you turn those loud questions down? Some of us want to get some kip.
I will have to ponder this one, Monty - I'm not as familiar with the Mylett details as I'd like.
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 286
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 9:25 am: | |
Hi Robert, Monty and Everyone
I think we need to examine the Mylett case more closely I want to reread on a lot of things as soon as I get a a bit of time. I've just ordred three of the newer books on Jacky. I'm in the same boat as Monty right now as far as time.
I miss the boards and the people, but I'll be back.
All The Best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 287
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 9:45 am: | |
P.S.
I've always felt there was a relationship between the scaves found on so many victims and JTR. Perhaps all the women wore them in those days. Conversely, could they have been given as gifts to some of the victims to facilitate his ability to pull them into the position he needed them in to suit his m.o.?
I had better go, there is a hurricane heading our way.
Best
Gary |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 252
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:37 am: | |
Gary,
I had the exact same thoughts on the scarves as gifts....and about Polly's new bonnet....and Annie's piece of Muslin....oh, Liz's piece of green velvet and any of Kates nick-nacks...
Hurricane heading your way ? As I look out of my window I can see the most beautiful still sunny day.
I dont envy you mate...good luck.
Monty
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 289
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 2:40 pm: | |
Hi Monty
The gift idea is a tired concept I must admit. I do wonder about the scarves as serving a practical use for Jacky in subdueing his victims.
As for the hurricane, I'll move my family to higher ground and stay behind to protect the true crime library at all costs.
All The Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 762
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 3:26 pm: | |
Hi Gary
Take care. It's forecast to be a nasty one.
A ludicrous thought just occurred to me : how many people usually have their wigs blown off during these things?
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 290
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 4:54 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
I hope no-one in North Carolina or Virgina is sporting artificial hair outdoors, as it appears to be turning a little north. Then again you never know.
My wife was born in southern Louisiana and she can recall as a little girl in the mid 60's, her parents having to hold her up as the adults treaded through waist deep water in the hallway of their home. That was Betsy in 65.
The last one that came through our home was Hugo in 89. The strongest winds we got were over a hundred miles an hour before the weather meter downtown was blown away.
I hope no-one is hurt by this one.
All The Best
Gary
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 253
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 8:22 am: | |
Gary,
Scarves do crop up quite a bit.
Hutchinsons statement for example.
A case of "here, let me put this on for you" ?
Still doesnt help me sleep.
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 765
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 11:09 am: | |
Hi all
The scarves are interesting but as far as Eddowes at least is concerned, we know she had her scarf on at BPS.
Mylett's scarf is a mystery to me.
Sorry I can't answer any of your questions, Monty, so you're due for more insomnia. Have you tried counting victims?
By the way, everyone, how many victims should it be? The reason I ask is, take the longest list possible, all the way through to Coles. Some of these will include interruptions. While each interruption considered on its own might seem OK -Nichols, Stride, maybe Mylett and Coles - I feel when you add them up, there seem to be too many interruptions. It just doesn't feel right when you look at them in aggregate. Anyone else feel this?
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 255
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
Robert,
Do you mean the interruptions in timing between the victims ?
I see your point but I dont feel that uncomfortable with it. Ive also never ran along with the theory that he only killed at weekends.
Why ? Does he have to clock on and off ? I go along with the idea that when you gotta go you gotta go, and if the chance becomes available then pow !
I also have a huge feeling that there are few victims out there that survived his attacks (Millwood, Wilson, Mylett and Ward among them), and also that they are not only situated in the East end either.
If you mean during his act of actually murdering then its feels right to me. Infact Im surprised there hasnt been more.
This is why I feel the yards mentioned in my above post are so important. I think it could have been deliberate on his part in order to find that privacy, to avoid the interruptions. But for whatever reasons (yards were locked or victims just didnt want to go there) Nichols & Eddowes never made it that far.
I guess what Im saying is that I feel he took steps (as best as he could) to seek out certain areas for privacy.
Monty just thinking...but only just !!
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 767
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 1:45 pm: | |
Hi Monty
Yes I meant interrupted in the act. On the other hand though, I also believe that he must sometimes have backed out at the last minute - say because there were some people chatting nearby - so that's even more interruptions!
Could you fill me in on Ward again? I can't remember the info from when she came up before.
I suppose if we wanted to, we could write a scenario showing Jack reacting to each event :
Millwood and Wilson. Stabbed in stomach or throat but survive. One even screams for help. No good.
Tabram. Strangled then stabbed - but not enough satisfaction.
Nichols. Strangled, throat cut and ripped. Curses! Interrupted. Must make sure it's off the street next time.
Chapman. Hey, that went well. Let's try another yard.
Stride. I hate yards - dangerous traps. So...
Eddowes. Back on the street. But the night watchman interrupts. So...
Kelly. Do it indoors to get some peace.
It depends how organised/disorganised you think he was.
I wish I knew whether the yards in Buck's Row and Mitre Square were locked.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 359
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 7:20 am: | |
Hi All,
Many windows (or rather alleyways and yards) of opportunity for Jack, same as for any legit paying customer of an East End prostitute. But with the general hustle and bustle of the area at most hours of the day and night would come many chances for complications to arise, any of which may cause him to change tack slightly from one attack to the next, or even mid-stream, to improve his own chances of staying ahead of the game.
If he has no intention of engaging sexually with any of the women he encounters, he has an immediate problem when she judges the time and place are both safe for a spot of business, if he judges the situation unsafe for a spot of murder, or ripping, or both. Hesitation could alert her that something was very wrong. This is just one complication he could face.
Re scarves, I don't know how commonly worn they were by the 1880s, but this is what Henry Mayhew had to say about costermongers' neckerchiefs when he was writing in the 1850s:
The costermonger, however, prides himself most of all upon his neckerchief and boots. Men, women, boys and girls, all have a passion for these articles. The man who does not wear his silk neckerchief - his "King's-man" as it is called - is known to be in desperate circumstances; the inference being that it has gone to supply the morning's stock-money.... The women wear their kerchiefs tucked-in under their gowns, and the men have theirs wrapped loosely round the neck, with the ends hanging over their waistcoats. Even if a costermonger has two or three silk handkerchiefs by him already, he seldom hesitates to buy another, when tempted with a bright showy pattern hanging from a Field-lane door-post.
So even the poorest women may have tended to sport neckerchiefs by the 1880s. But it's also possible for a well-heeled or dirt poor Jack to have offered one to a potential victim as a temporary distraction or sweetener.
Love,
Caz |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 769
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 8:23 am: | |
Hi Caz
They seem to have loved their bonnets too - Nichols and Coles, both heavy boozers, were pleased to get new bonnets although the price of one would have bought them several drinks.
Robert |
Michael Raney
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 1:19 pm: | |
Monty and everyone, I too have lost some sleep over these questions (thanks so much Monty!), while I wasn't sleeping last night, I did some research. I didn't find out a lot, but I have some ideas I will post when I get home from work tonight. Sorry, I am way behind right now!
Mikey |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 258
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:13 pm: | |
Robert, Caz, Mikey,
Robert,
Re Susan Ward
Im going from memory here (Im at a cybercafe not home)but there was a report in a London paper that a drunken woman was attacked just off the Commercial Rd around the 15th (Could be 13th, but a week or so after Chapman). Her attacker was frighten off by her screams. It was a straight knife attack and seems as if no strangulation was attempted.
The only woman admitted to the London Hospital with similar injuries was found to be a certain Susan Ward.
And thats all the info I have.
All the reactions work for me. And the last minute backing out.
Re locked yards. I believe that Bucks row yard was locked...or was that the one in Mitre sq ? Its somewhere in one of my books. I'll look it up and let you know.
Caz,
I think Cazs point about him adapting to the situation is a very important one to take on board. I feel he was very aware of his enviroment and though he took chances he must have weighed up the odds.. If he didnt then he would have been caught by now.
Mikey,
You're not the only one behind, Im about 115 years behind son.
Monty
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