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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 158
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 2:59 pm: |       |
Cheers to that.
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 171
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 9:03 pm: | |
Hi Candy
I call the cachous, breath mints since that is what I read they would be called here across the pond.
It never crossed my mind that they could be used to freshen the breath after an act of fellatio. Then again, the men were not paying for a good conversation.
Best Regards
Gary
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Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 486
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 4:29 pm: | |
Hallo Candy
Only joking about the dinner.
Re the fingernails, I suppose also that these women would have kept them trimmed fairly short, and therefore their effectiveness as weapons wouldn't have been as great as with the long talons that are sometimes cultivated. You probably only get those in JTR films!
Robert
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Jeff Hamm
Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
Hi all,
I've mentioned before that I thought the throat wounds between Stride and Eddowes sounded similar, which might suggest a common killer (i.e., argues for Stride's inclusion). I thought I would present this more formally, and see what other think as well. Be aware, however, what I'm presenting isn't definitive and the similarities may not be so striking or convincing to someone with expertise in this area. I'm certainly not one of those!
Anyway, below are extracts from inquest testimony from two doctors, Dr. Phillips (who describes the throat injury on Stride) and Dr. Brown (who describes the throat injury on Eddowes). These extracts are not the complete testimony, but encompass the details of the injury I wish to compare.
(Stride) Mr. Geogre Bagster Phillips:
On neck, from left to right, there is a clean cut incision six inches in length; incision commencing two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw. Three-quarters of an inch over undivided muscle, then becoming deeper, about an inch dividing sheath and the vessels, ascending a little, and then grazing the muscle outside the cartilages on the left side of the neck. The carotid artery on the left side and the other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through, save the posterior portion of the carotid, to a line about 1-12th of an inch in extent, which prevented the separation of the upper and lower portion of the artery. The cut through the tissues on the right side of the cartilages is more superficial, and tails off to about two inches below the right angle of the jaw. It is evident that the haemorrhage which produced death was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery.
(Eddowes): Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown
The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 in. or 7 in. The sterno cleido mastoid muscle was divided; the cricoid cartilage below the vocal chords was severed through the middle; the large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed to the bone, the knife marking the intervertebral cartilage. The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just open; the carotid artery had a pin-hole opening; the internal jugular vein was open to the extent of an inch and a half - not divided. All the injuries were caused by some very sharp instrument, like a knife, and pointed. The cause of death was haemorrhage from the left common carotid artery. The death was immediate.
From these descriptions I find the following similarities between the wounds:
a) Length: 6 (Stride) and 6 to 7 inches (Eddowes)
b) Direction: Left to right (both)
c) Depth:
1) grazing mussels over left cartilage (Stride), cut to the bone left side (Eddowes)
2) Left cartoid artery almost completely severed (right cartoid appears undamaged; my note) and Left cartoid artery completely severed, right cartoid with small hole (Eddowes)
3) Cut on right side more superficial on both
d) Knife: clean cut with Stride suggests sharp knife (my note), Brown states a sharp knife for Eddowes
e) victim position: Both victims found laying on their left side, with head turned to the left.
Differences: Strides wound appears to start shallow for ¾ of an inch, then get deeper, whereas Eddowes’ wound sounds like it starts deep; i.e., stabbed then cut, as apposed to “cut across” (again, my note as this latter conclusion is not stated by the Doctor, and is only my interpretation).
Now, I’m not an expert, and some of these similarities may not be all that unexpected. For example, a 6 to 7 inch cut may simply be what you get when you cut someone’s throat. Cutting from left to right may simply indicate both killers are right handed. If so, finding a deeper wound at the start of the cut compared to the end may also be a common finding. In addition, neither of these victims show the complete circular wound imposed upon Annie Chapman. but that may also indicate a similarity pointing to Jack. Jack learns that removing the head is too difficult, and doesn’t bother trying with either Stride (he doesn’t even have the time to even mutilate her for some reason), and doesn’t bother with Eddowes as he’s keen on getting into the mutilation phase and knows that trying to remove the head is just more frustration, etc.
Anyway, because it looks to my untrained eye that the one wound which is common to both Stride and Eddowes appears very similar, with differences possibily reflecting different unique events that arise during separate attacks, I find this suggests a common attacker. There are also some descriptions of men seen with Stride that correspond to the description of the man seen with Eddowes, and again could suggest the same individual. And, of course, the similarity of the time of the murders. All of these factors appear to suggest a common attaker.
None of these similarities is definitive enough, alone or even in combination, however, to rule out separate attackers. Especially if the commonalities between the wounds is not unlikely, but reflects the typical wound pattern of a knife attack. That detail, however, requires an expertise that I do not possess and comments are most certainly welcome.
- Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 490
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 8:36 pm: | |
Hi Jeff
I'm afraid I have no expertise either! The only difference I can see that might be significant, is that the Stride cut seems shallower than the others. This may be explicable if she was attacked from behind while standing up, or if she was struggling at the time. But then we'd have to ask, if she was killed by the same man who murdered the others, why didn't he throttle her and then lay her down to cut her throat?
It may be that health was a factor. Tabram and Nichols were pretty drunk. Chapman was very ill. Eddowes had just recovered from a binge. But Stride seems to have been in better condition, and may have been harder to strangle. Although she'd been to the pub, the doctors found no trace of liquor, so she probably hadn't drunk very much.
Robert
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Jeff Hamm
Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
The Stride cut does appear to have been shallower, I just can't tell if that difference reflects the sort of variation one might expect because not every knife wound made by the same killer will be exactly the same depth. Also, if we "assume Jack" for the sake of argument, his departure may be due to being interrupted by Diemshutz (sp?) or because he was spotted earlier by Schwartz and "pipe man" (if the latter is not a look out) and just wanted to get out of there in case the police were being fetched. The less extensive cut may reflect haste, which either of these explanations would suggest. Killing Stride was considered "necessary" because out of the possible 3 witnesses, she's got the best look at him. Lots of explanations can explain this, and I'm only offering one to demonstrate that.
Anyway, what I don't know is whether or not things like 6 inches is simply the typical length of a knife wound for a throat cutting victim. If this is simply what you tend to get in terms of wound length for people the size of Stide and Eddowes, then this commonality isn't very informative. Anyone could have done it. If, however, 6 inches is bigger than the typical, it becomes more suggestive (not proof mind you) of a common attacker. The depth and other factors I've mentioned may also be "typical" or "atypical". If they are "typical", then the commonalities between the wounds are not very informative. If they are atypical and similar, then they would suggest a common attacker. It's my lack of knowledge that frustrates me on this one because I don't know if these descriptions would be considered "similar" or "atypical". And it's those two factors that determine how we should view this evidence.
- Jeff |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 4:00 pm: | |
Hi Candy, Robert, Gary;
Well Candy, I think we have grossed out all the men! But then again, this is the reality of these women's existence, in the past as well as now.
I believe the cachous would have been made with a recipe of, oil of peppermint or cloves, and some corn starch and confectioner's sugar. They would not have shown up in the stomach if she had already eaten one, or they could be part of the "farineaceous" (flour based) material found in the stomach contents. (Hey I am a baker and know what I am talking about with recipes!)
While reading that Victorian Diary of "My secret life", I noted that it was not common for English prostitutes to perform oral sex as much as the French or European ones. Liz, being a Swede, may have been inclined to give this service. (Another interesting note was concerning the French prostitute who slowly undresses and folds her clothes before servicing her customer).
Gary ; Just for jolly, I looked up "Red Lipstick" on Google, and along with many cosmetic and other weird references, there was one that described a woman in a bar, applying thick layers of red lipstick. She referred to it as "C*ck-ring Red"
I though you'd like that one.
Gotta run.
Joan
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 206
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 3:51 pm: | |
Hi Joan
Perhaps she a student of ancient history.
Thanks
Gary |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:57 am: | |
Hi Gary;
Perhaps our crime historian, Mr. Andersson, can elucidate on that one!
It seems like several of the threads are now discussing old Happy Lip, so we may as well keep this thread going, too.
Maybe the assailant was yelling "Lick me!"
Oh, I am getting carried away, but seriously, if Liz knew she had active herpes or syphilis, would she have been offering only oral sex,(not being aware of the fact that this was just as easy a way of infecting a customer).
The customer wanting normal sex was told "not tonight, some other night"?
The customer who asks if she is clean says, "You would say anything but your prayers"
After the assault, she goes to tidy up and freshen her breath, waiting for the meeting to break up, and Mister not tonight follows her into the laneway, waits until she comes out, and grabs her. "Yes, my dear, it will be tonight!"
Joan |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 663
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 3:20 am: | |
G'day,
Dr. Phillips testified at Elizabeth Stride's inquest: 'The body was lying on the near side, with the face turned towards the wall, the head up the yard and the feet towards the street'. It has been suggested on another board that her killer sat on top of her. Why would he have his back turned towards the street, and she was found laying on her side anyway! And her right hand was on the ground, (underneath her), not under her head!
I'd say the back of her right hand was bloody and not the palm, because she didn't die straight away and used it in defence to guard against a 2nd cut, not to cup her wound!
Dr Blackwell testified that: 'Deceased would take about a minute and a half to bleed to death.' As Deimshutz ran inside to check on his wife and raise the alarm, that was enough time for the killer to flee the yard. He could have either hid behind the gate or further back in the dark yard.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 665
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 6:10 pm: | |
G'day,
Hey Deimschutz said the gate was wide opened, right, he only got out of his cart to see why his pony shied. I don't think the killer would have killed Elizabeth Stride with the gate wide open, and he certainly wasn't sitting on top of her. My brain is turning summersaults trying to picture this scene and I just got out of bed! Has anyone got any suggestions?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 666
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
G'day,
Another thought: If Elizabeth stride's murder wasn't planned, but she had to go because she threatened the Ripper with something she saw, (rewards for information weren't offered until after her murder), this would explain why the killer didn't have his trusty knife on him, why he didn't bother hanging around to mutilate her, and why he murdered another victim that night!
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 786
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 6:24 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
Well, he killed Eddowes in the street! We do know it was extremely dark in that yard. Still, as a piece of speculation : maybe he tried to close the gates, this spooked Stride, and this accounts for the comparatively bungled nature of the job.
I did say it was speculation!
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 787
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 6:33 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
Re your second post : the Mayor's reward wasn't offered till after the 3oth, but wasn't there still Montagu's reward before that?
Robert |
Shannon Christopher
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 9:46 am: | |
Leanne, there are two factors to any serial killing. First is the kill itself. The killer will plan the kill in a methodical fashion to the last detail including the time, place, escape route, everything. They survey the area of the crime before the killing. The only thing left to chance is the victim. Once the killer has found a sutable location for the kill, all that remains is for the victim to arrive and for the killer to complete the act. Only the killer knows why they chose a particular victim.
In the case of Polly Nichols, the killer selected Buck's Row due to the lone street light at the end of the street. He chose a location on the street where he could see to either end of the street to watch for the victim, police, or pedestrians without drawing any attention to himself, and one where he could escape in any number of directions in the event something went wrong. The killer knew the area and blended in.
Annie was selected along Hanbury street and taken to the backyard of #29. A darkened yard where had the killer been disturbed, he would have been able to return to Hanbury and make his escape in a number of directions because whoever it was that entered the backyard would not have seen Annie's body in the dark or realized what had happened until after the killer had left.
Kate was murdered in Mitre Square. Again a darkened location with three exits to different streets. Had the killer heard anyone coming from any direction he would have realized it long before they entered the square and discovered the body. With the passages echoing the footsteps of whoever entered, the killer had an early warning system and was able to do the crime and depart without being discovered within minutes of the constable returning.
The yard off Berner street is closed with no escape, the street is well lit by the street light at the corner and from the Workingman's club. It is also a high foot traffic area. This is NOT a place the person who committed the other crimes would have chosen. Not when there are far more suitable locations in Whitechapel to commit the next crime.
Now, look at the kill itself:
1, Liz's was not strangeled or suffocated as there others were.
2. Her throat was cut; but, it was in complete opposite to the others. In her case the knife was inserted into the left side and pulled backwards, toward the killer. In all the other murders the knife was placed against the throat and pushed downward.
3. Even if it only took a minute and a half for her to die, that is time enought for the killer to rip her as he did the other victims.
Other than the fact the killer used a knife, and even then it was not the same type of knife as he used on the others (he still had the other because he used it on Kate an hour later), please tell me one fact of this case that is identical to any of the others and why it should be related to them? Even the coroner stated at the time: There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator... |
Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 2:52 am: | |
So is it being suggested that JTR was hiding behind the gate, literally within a couple of feet of Deimschultz? If so, just imagine if JTR had sneezed. The case would have been solved due to a bit of dust or pollen. |
Shannon Christopher
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 10:02 am: | |
Leanne, from the inquest of Dr Blackwell: [The Foreman]: Did you notice any marks or bruises about the shoulders? - They were what we call pressure marks. At first they were very obscure, but subsequently they became very evident. They were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion. Each shoulder was about equally marked.
Something or someone had to have made these marks. Since they were only lightly visible at the time of death, but became more pronounced with time it is a strong indication that they were made at the time of death otherwise they would have been more visible. When you bruise your arm it yellows at first, then darkens over the next day or so, same is true after death to a degree.
As a child if you ever were, or pinned someone to the ground in a fight or in play you would have received or left the same marks on the shoulders if enough force were exerted to keep the person on the ground from escaping. Liz at 5'5" is larger than most, and if struggling (indicated by the mud on her face and hair) presented a formidable force to keep subdued. The killer was not concerned with what direction she was facing, only in controlling her once she was on the ground.
From the coroner's sumation: as it was clear from the appearance of the blood on the ground that the throat was not cut until after she was actually on her back. There were no marks of gagging, no bruises on the face, and no trace of any anaesthetic or narcotic in the stomach; while the presence of the cachous in her hand showed that she did not make use of it in self-defence. Possibly the pressure marks may have had a less tragical origin, as Dr. Blackwell says it was difficult to say how recently they were produced. There was one particular which was not easy to explain. When seen by Dr. Blackwell her right hand was lying on the chest, smeared inside and out with blood. Dr. Phillips was unable to make any suggestion how the hand became soiled. There was no injury to the hand, such as they would expect if it had been raised in self-defence while her throat was being cut.
Liz's left arm was raised above her body holding the cachous, her right laying across her breasts. She was stabbed in the neck on her left side by the killer using his right hand. Once the knife was inserted, the killer pulled it towards him. He did not strike her in a downward motion, and she was not in the process of defending. She knew her killer and in the moments prior to her death I believe (once again in my opinion) she did not expect him to killer her.
Shannon |
Scott Nelson
Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 5:19 pm: | |
Shannon, about your second to last post above, do we know if the Ripper led the victims to the murder sites or was it the other way around? Or was it dependent on the circumstances of each murder scene? |
jim naden
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 1:47 pm: | |
I don't believe your suprised the killer was behind the gate as Deimschultz entered the yard, isn't that what Maybrick said he did in the diary? |
jim naden
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 1:48 pm: | |
I don't believe your suprised the killer was behind the gate as Deimschultz entered the yard, isn't that what Maybrick said he did in the diary? |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 2:10 pm: | |
"2. Her throat was cut; but, it was in complete opposite to the others. In her case the knife was inserted into the left side and pulled backwards, toward the killer. In all the other murders the knife was placed against the throat and pushed downward."
Shannon,
This doesn't seem quite right. Stride's throat was cut mostly the same way as the other victims'. A smaller knife was used, but the same decisive left to right motion was evidenced.
Saddam
|
Shannon Christopher
Police Constable
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 9:07 pm: | |
Scott, I believe the killer chose the site and waited for someone that fit the "type" of victim he was looking for to arrive, or followed them to a place he knew was deserted enough to do his deed without detection. If the lady did the choosing, expecting to earn her doss money, you have several problems. Polly was drunk and alone and I believe lost when she was murdered. Annie was murdered in the back of a house along Hanbury street; which is away from Dorset and Comercial where she normally worked. Kate was murdered in Mitre Square, located in the city of London, and in the opposite direction of where she would have been working her trade if she were a prostitute (which I do not believe she was). |
Shannon Christopher
Police Constable
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 9:22 pm: | |
Saddam, when you read the post mortem on Stride it indicates that her throat was cut deeper on the left side than on the right, and at an upward angle from left to right. There was no penetration of the ligaments or skin on the right side; nor was the right carotid artery cut. The only way to achieve this type of lateral cutting is to insert the knife into the neck below the esophagus on the left side and pull it outward, the same as you would if you held a looped piece of rope in your hand and set the knife between the strands and pulled backwards to cut the rope in two. If you place the knife on her throat and cut downward as the other victims were, you would have cut through both carotid arteries. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 794
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 5:25 am: | |
Shannon, isn't it more likely that the pressure marks were caused by Schwartz's man? Otherwise, we would have to say that he pulled her about and threw her down without causing any marks - I don't think there were any other recent marks mentioned.
PS How do you explain the cachous?
Robert |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
Shannon,
Your point seems reasonable at first blush, but wouldn't the difference in technique be accountable by the difference in the knife?
Saddam |
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