| Author |
Message |
    
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 5:00 pm: |       |
Gary,
I have indeed heard of petechial haemorrhage before. Does it occur only in the case of stragulation to death or would it also occur in someone who has been partially strangled, say, into unconsciousness?
Andy
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 135
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 6:26 pm: | |
Hi Andy
That's a good question and from what I recall learning I believe it begins to occur when the air supply is cut off and is more pronounced as the oxygen deprivation continues resulting in full haemorrhage of the vessel. The bleeding is known as a pinpoint haemhorrage. This is born out by the fact that people who have been strangled but not to the point of death show signs of haemorrhage in the eyes. The eyes looked much worse and more bloodshot a day or so later in a victim who survived the strangulation. Perhaps this is because the blood contnues to seep out. I really am not sure.
This means JTR need not have strangled his victims to death, only into unconsciousness. He would then apply the knife without the problem of having to worry about there being as much blood as would occur if the heart were fully pumping. As you probably know there is going to be a three foot jet of blood from the severed carotid artery if the heart is pumping normally. All he would have had to have done after strangling the victim into unconsciousness would be to point the head and neck away from himself to avoid the blood that would escape.
That raises a question in my mind about Kelly. Her eyes were said to be open and staring and a photograph, which must have been lost, was taken of the retinas. No mention was made of petechial haemorrhage If she was sound asleep when her throat was cut the blood flow wouldn't have been as bad since the heart was partially at rest.
Hope that makes some kind of sense. I would feel more comfortable having a doctor confirm this for us.
All The Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 454
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 7:21 pm: | |
Hi all
It's weird, but some things just don't seem to be mentioned in the records.
Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I can't recall any reference to the police checking under a victim's fingernails.
In the case of Stride, there doesn't seem to be any reference to checks for sexual connection.
No one seems to have looked for haemorrhages in any of the victims' eyes.
Gary, I too wish we had a doctor. But I don't see that it does any harm to speculate until one arrives! Though actually, if only one arrived, we'd all shut up and defer to his authority. We need two - naturally they'd disagree with each other, and we could go on arguing!
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 139
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
Hi
After checking another board it appears that there is dispute about the reliability of the report that Kelly's retinas were photographed so strike that point.
Best
Gary
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 140
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 5:45 am: | |
Hi Robert
Is there a doctor in the house? We need one badly. I'm reduced to remembering a series of lectures by a forensic pathologist in a class from 15 years ago.
Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 456
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 6:17 am: | |
Hi Joan and Gary
Joan, yes of course, that would explain why her bonnet was undone, and therefore able to fall off her head - she was redoing her hair after the attack in the street.
I'm not sure about the toilet bit though - wouldn't he have attacked her as she came out of the toilet, further up the yard, instead of waiting for her to come towards the gate?
Gary, I'm going to try and educate myself a little on all this forensic business, but no matter how many books I read, it won't be as good as having one doctor on the Boards that I could question. But I feel that even a doctor would probably only be able to talk in probabilities, since he won't have examined the bodies, and much of forensic science probably involves on-the-spot judgement and reliance on experience rather than the application of hard and fast rules.
I wish the doctors had been granted decent facilities back in 88.
Robert
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 141
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
Hi Robert
I've also read books and watched documentaries. The Secrets Of Forensic Science type things, but it just isn't the same as asking a doctor and getting responses to the exact questions we need answers for.
Regarding decent facilities and your earlier comment about there haing been no mention of recent connection with any of the women, Polly Nichols commented to a friend before her body was found that she had earned her doss three times that night but spent it to get liqueured up. The body was mishandled by the workman at the makeshift morgue and washed clean. I think you answered your own question regarding decent facilities and decent help.
All The Best
Gary
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 142
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
P.S.
No offense meant to the memory of Polly. I would have been searching for a means to escape that existance as well I fear.
g |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 459
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 9:02 am: | |
Hi Gary
I'm sure that there was recent connection in some cases (not with the Ripper) - but particularly regarding Stride it would be interesting to know, as there have been claims that she wasn't actually working as a prostitute that night, whether there had been connection.
I don't know whether eye haemorrhages were known about in those days. They only seem to have checked Stride's eyes for their colour. I'll have to add "History of Forensic Medicine" to "Forensic Medicine" on my reading list. When am I going to get time to read "War and Peace"?
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 143
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 9:55 am: | |
Robert
I do recall that we students could not see the eye haemhorrages until they were enlarged and pointed out on the slideshow. I am under the impression that even today you have to know what you are looking for or you can miss them.
Let us know how the History of Forensic Medicine goes. From what I've seen the subject can be pretty boring unless you have a specific interest in it such as we appear to have.
As for War and Peace, you can use that for light reading on the side.
Best
Gary |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 188
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 11:41 am: | |
Gary,
I feel he attacked from behind because of the suddeness of the attack. No defence wounds, the gripping of the cachous, no loud screams etc. That coupled with the scarf knot behind her left ear points me in that direction.
You have to think about which hand you use ?
Im stronger with my right but when it comes to snap choices I dont think, I react.
Its why Im Wicketkeeper for my cricket team. Off side, leg side, right hand, left hand. It makes no difference and I certainly dont stop and think which hand I should go for it.
Sorry for going off topic.
Monty
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 144
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 12:44 pm: | |
Hi Monty
I feel the attack was from behind for exactly the same reasons and the fact that the blood could be directed away from the attacker.
I don't really make a decision about which hand to use when it's a split second reaction. When I speculate on the various scenarios regarding the position of the attacker vs. the possible positions of the victim I have to stop and think in order to speculate on which hand would be the more convenient.
All The Best
Gary
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Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 11:25 am: | |
Hi Fellow Sleuths;
Here is one site that has some information on basic forensics for a start;
www.forensicmed.co.ukhttp
Joan |
Candy Morgan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 11:34 am: | |
Hello Andrew!
Googling for petechial will find you some pictures (most of them very graphic and NSFW) of strangulation and suffocation vicitms. However, some of these websites indicate that not only is petechial haemorrhage sometimes NOT present in known cases of strangulation, it sometimes IS present when strangulation is not a factor, in cases of cholera, for instance.
Hello Robert!
The reason (my opinion only, your milage may vary) for skin scrapings not being taken, is simply that there was nothing they could DO with that evidence. It would be 100 years before DNA typing could match skin cells to a particular individual; so observations were made (Did deceased fight?) and then police went on to other things.
Hello Gary, Robert and all regarding sexual connection!
If memory serves me correct, didn't some of the unfortunates merely grip the penis with their thighs instead of allowing penetration? In which case, semen would tend to slough down the leg and onto the pavement (which we learn from Jack London that people scrounged food off of.... ewwwww.) And mal-nutrition can cause some men to "shoot blanks" (for lack of a better term). In other words, the sensation is there but not the fluid.
Hello Robert,
Facilities weren't THAT much better outside of Whitechapel in the 1880's. Blood grouping was unknown and Dr. Lister was still facing a lot of disbelief in the medical community for his revolutionary ideas about cleanliness and sanitation.
Though I must admit that allowing paupers unsupervised access to the bodies brought in overnight must have made for some pretty dicy things happening in the privacy of the workhouse dead room. Wonder that Jack didn't try (or perhaps he DID?) to get work in such an environment...
Thank you for listening, and I'm certainly looking forward to this unfolding discussion!
~~Candy
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Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 7:25 pm: | |
Hi Gary, Robert and all: I have seen a person who was strangled, not even into unconciousness, whose eyes were blood red. It looked very strange. However, I was reading about the Jon Benet Ramsey case, and came across the fact that she had the similar marks as were seen on Liz's chin, and this was attributed to "livor mortis". This is when the blood settles on the side of gravity, and Liz was found with her head towards the left, to the wall.
It takes only 11 pounds of pressure on the carotid arteries for 10 seconds to render the victim senseless. If the pressure is then released, the victim could awaken within 10 seconds.
I agree with Monty (!!) that she was grabbed by the scarf, and pulled back, she likely clenched up her hands in pain, and began to black out. This is all it would take to get her under control, and the throat then slashed as she slumped downward. Her legs were slightly bent,not kicked about.
Gary, I noted that the petechia are more obvious in the eyes etc. when the victim puts up a struggle, so the lack thereof may show how quickly she passed out.
The cachous suggest to me that Liz may have been into oral sex, and she also had several hankies, one stained with "fruit stains". Perhaps that was how she got called LIPski, she did have a strange appearance to her mouth. Not to be coarse, but keep in mind that all of the Jewish men were circumsised for religious reasons, well I will let you guess where I am going with that one!
Robert; I don't know why they all didn't own a mirror, but I suppose that even this little item was a prized possession for a poor prostitute, who carried everything she owned. Remember Annie Chapman got into a row over a little piece of soap!
And where DID Liz get that "large piece of green velvet"? Did she have a sewing job to do for someone, and why did they never come forward? Or did she steal it?
Great talking to you all.
Joan
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Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 463
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 3:50 pm: | |
Hi Joan and Candy
Joan, thanks for the link.
I hadn't thought of that cachou explanation! I suppose then according to this theory, the fact that she had the cachous out would tend to suggest either that she'd just finished with customer when the killer appeared, or that the killer himself had just had this service performed on him.
Candy, you too have very nearly put me off my dinner!
Re the fingernails, I just thought it would have been worth the police's while checking to see if, say, they were looking for someone with a scratched face. Or a fibre of material might have told them what colour the killer's coat was.
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 146
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
Hi Candy
Interesting, so petechial haemhorrhage is not always a reliable indicator according to some of these sights. I assume they mean petechial haemhorrage of the blood vessels in the eyes. Can't the vessels in the neck also haemhorrage?
Cholera can produce muscle cramps and spasms so this may be why it can cause the haemhorrage; but thats really just a stab in the dark.
Hi Joan
I think I have heard the "livor mortis" you describe as post mortem lividity, which as you say is the blood settling according to gravity.
The eyes of a person who surives a strangling are blood red, and it is an awful sight.
I have read that red lipstick began many centuries ago as an indication to would be customers that a prostitute was willing to perform fellatio. I quess this would have been an expense most East End prostitutes could not have afforded -even if they knew about the ancient custom.
It's off to the forensics sight mentioned above for me. It can't hurt to learn and may provide insight even if we have no doctor in residence on the boards at present.
All The Best
Gary |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 193
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 7:23 am: | |
Gary, Joan,
Gary,
I see where you are coming from now.
Joan,
Believe me Joan...Im just as staggered as you !! 
Monty
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 150
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:56 pm: | |
Hello
I think after all of this laborious, intense analysis and amatuer medical speculation, we can state one thing with categoric certainty- EITHER LIZ STRIDE WAS STRANGLED OR SHE WASN'T !!! (but the authors of the A-Z were probably right and she wasn't strangled.) Which doesn't rule her out as a JTR victim but does raise questions.
Best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 151
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 4:26 pm: | |
P.S.
I've always been good at stating the obvious as you can see. |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 469
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 8:23 pm: | |
Hi all
I'm just wondering whether, if he was interrupted by Diemschutz, he actually did hide behind the gate. According to the inquest, the gateway was about nine feet two inches wide. Halve that for one gate, and there doesn't seem too much gate to hide behind. Still, I suppose he had be somewhere.
Robert |
Diana
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 114
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:52 am: | |
I don't know whether this sheds any light at all. When I had one of my children, after the delivery I looked in the mirror and saw a lot of little red dots on my face. I was told these were petechiae resulting from the strain caused by pushing. Obviously since I remained alive they went away! |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 157
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 12:24 pm: | |
Hi Diana
We're obviously glad you are still with us.
Logic would say that it is the pressure and struggle and strain which causes the blood vessels to burst and your experience points up this fact.
If men were the ones who had to give birth, I suspect families would be a lot smaller.
Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 472
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 2:55 pm: | |
I'd flatly refuse.
Robert |
Candy Morgan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 11:29 pm: | |
Hello Gary!
You ask if the vessels in the neck can hemmorage also, I would ASSUME they can, since some of the photos I found show petechial haemhorrhaging of the kidneys and pancreas due to cholera. Having nothing but first aid training I too wish we had a doctor on the boards.
I did have a horrific bout of food poisoning and drug allergy about ten years ago that left me with a 'raccoon mask' shaped petechial haemhorrhage on my face for about five days.
Hello Robert!
Sorry about the dinner! I wasn't thinking when I posted that - it is rather nasty. Open mouth, disengage brain...
You do have a point about the fingernails, but I doubt they would have been clean enough to tell if they had been used as weapons or not. (just my .02 cents worth on that.)
Hello Joan!
Good observation on the cachous, it's an avenue I never thought about. But I'm not really sure what a cachou (is that the singular?) is, and I wonder if a small piece of candy or such would be enough to - let's not be gross here - get the taste and texture out of the mouth?
I remember reading somewhere (maybe the Kinsey report on male sexuality) that over 75% of men who visited prostitutes wanted that particular service from them, on the grounds that they couldn't get it at home. Maybe that's why none of the women showed signs of 'recent connection' - the doctors weren't looking in the right place?
~~Candy |
