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Chuck
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:22 pm: | 
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I read up in a book that on the morning of the Polly Nichols murder, a Mrs. Harriet Lilley said that she heard whispering, gasps, and moans in Bucks Row a little before the 3:30 A.M. train. Then the train stopped her from hearing it. It’s an undisclosed report.
Is this true? Because I never heard anyone mention this.
-Chuck-
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Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 130
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 5:35 pm: |
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Which book did you read that in?
Andy
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 684
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 6:52 pm: |
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Hi Andy, Chuck
Colin Wilson and Robin Odell say that Mrs Lilley told this story at the inquest. Does anyone know which newspaper this is from? I've not been able to find it in Sourcebook or Casebook.
Robert |
Chuck
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 11:46 pm: |
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Andrew and Robert
I found the info in "Jack the Ripper's Black Magic Rituals" by Ivor Edwards. Unfortunately, Ivor Edwards doesn’t mention which newspaper it's from or if it’s from any. He just tells the story. I know some people will probably not believe it because it comes from that book, but I can assure people his other information about the case is accurate.
Edwards says he checked to see if any Harriett Lilly was living their at that time and it was affirmative that she was.
I just don't know why it's not mentioned much.
Thanks a lot guys.
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Merrideth Sykes
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 6:24 pm: |
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I read something of that nature in a book called "Prisoner 1167" by James Tully. The only difference was that it was Annie Chapman that it was heaqrd making noises in the back area of the housing she was murdered in. |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 5:12 am: |
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Merrideth, that probably comes from the testimony of Albert Cadoche, who lived next door and heard a woman say "No" and the sound of something falling against the fence. I've never seen a mention of an earshot witness in the Nichols case, but I also haven't read either the Wilson or the Edwards book. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 418
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:47 pm: |
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Hi,
There is also the evidence of Sarah Colwell, who lived in Brady street[ next to Bucks Row], who claimed that in the early hours of the 31st aug 88,, she had been awaken by the sound of a woman screaming, she also heard running footsteps, and got the impression that she was been chased.
This evidence and that of Mrs Harriot Lilley, will be discussed in full in our book.
Richard. |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 11:56 am: |
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I have to say I find it odd that Albert Cadoche's story is only brought up a week after the murder of Annie, and somehow when they were interviewing people in the adjoining houses the day after the murder his story was never mentioned. He wasn't asked to give evidence at the inquest either, so it seems likely to me that he was looking for a bit of glory, or to read his name in the papers.
Live next door to a murder site and people tend to beleive whatever malarky you say.
And in all the books I've read on the case I've never heard of anyone who claimed to hear Polly make a sound. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 316
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:02 pm: |
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I've never come across any reference to anyone hearing a noise from Polly before she was murdered.
Richard,
Where did you get this evidence from Sarah Colwell? Also did she say when exactly she heard the noises because the early hours of the morning, I would classify as, between 12.00 am - 6.00 am. I'm sure other people went past before Polly was murdered and also afterwards but maybe in a different direction.
Sarah |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 470
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 1:05 pm: |
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Hi Sarah,
Sarah colwell, does not mention a specific time, but she and several neighbours, heard a disturbance in Brady Street, in the early hours, of the 31st Aug, Colwell , got the impression that a woman was being attacked, and tried to escape her attacker, and also got the impression she was being chased.
The residents of Brady street obviously took the incident seriously , for they were out in the street the following morning, where they claimed to have found small spots of blood[ not confirmed]
This incident would point to that of Mrs Harriet Lilley, a resident in bucks row, just yards from where the body was found, hearing Gasps , and moans, shortly before the 330am train, which could point to Nichols being attacked around 320am that morning, and her trying to flee her attacker , who caught her up in Bucks row.
I am of the opinion .that the killer just attacked Nichols in Brady street in a rough manner, rather like Stride,she managed to scream , and started to run ,where as her killer went after her,and caught the breathless and terrified woman entering Bucks Row.
This is my impression of the possible events of that night.
Richard. |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 761
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 1:49 pm: |
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Hi Sarah
The A-Z says the following about Sarah Colwell:
"Resident of Brady Street, who claimed to have been awakened during the small hours of 31 August by the noise of a running woman screaming. It appeared to Mrs Colwell that the woman was being struck as she ran, but there was no sound of pursuing footsteps."
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Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 76
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 2:10 pm: |
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Kris,
Albert Cadosch DID testify at the Chapman inquest. In his testimony he said he went to work before the body was discovered, but evidentally heard about the murder later because "[h]e informed the police the same day of what he had heard."
Don. |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:15 am: |
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Donald,
You're right. I was hasty with that post. I've been reading the inquests, and I was under the impression the Chapman inquest was finished, when in reality what I was reading tossed some newspaper articles in the middle for some reason.
I got home last night and began to read, lo and behold one of the first people I read is Albert Cadosch. I litterally did a spit-take with the eggnog I had just consumed.
So, I formally stand corrected.
Kris |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 77
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:47 am: |
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Kris,
Eggnog can do that. I hope you had more to replace what you lost. Cheers!
Don. |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 38
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 3:25 pm: |
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Donald,
There's ALWAYS more eggnog in my apartment. And a small thin flask under the couch to go along with it.
Ahhh, evening reading . . . |
Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 7:07 pm: |
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Am also interested in the Colwell story. How far is Brady Street location from Polly's murder scene.Would she have been fleeing up Bucks Row? Is it possible she was attacked before the generally excepted murder site? Or that incidents could have taken place further down Bucks Row on the side of the Ware houses?
There seems nothing else to colaborate Colwell's story how reliable was she?
Jeff |
Ian Graham
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 3:55 pm: |
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Wasn't there a women in the Martha Tarbor (Whom I believe was a Ripper victim) who heard a muttle voice uttering something that soundws like "murder" around the time of Martha's killings.
(I didn't know Colin Wilson wrote a Ripper book. I am a big fan of his occult themed books) |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 612
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 11:38 am: |
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The New York Times' reporting of Polly's murder reports her running away screaming before she was killed. See: http://casebook.org/press_reports/new_york_times/nyt880901.html
I have no doubt this is a factual error but chances are it is an exaggeration of the above reports.
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 11:20 am: |
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I visited Buck's Row - by that time renamed of course - when a considerable number of the 1888 buildings still survived. the row of distinctive cottages had gone, but the wharehouses on the opposite side were still there and the murder spot intact.
All I can say is that it was a very narrow street and any noise must have been clearly audible. Wasn't one woman enduring a sleepless night in a wharehouse immediately across the road from where the body lay?
I doubt there was any scuffle, chase or cry. Poor Polly was attacked from behind as he prepared to earn her lodging money, and stifled before she could make a sound. The gates, adjacent to the body's position would have been a very convenient spot for a coupling in what must have been a quiet backstreet.
But just my opinion, of course.
Phil |
DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:37 pm: |
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Apart from the New York Times report, there are a number of other press reports, which support this theory and include two possible witnesses. I reproduce extracts below (from this site).
To put this in context, it should be noted that there was no testimony which supports this theory at the inquest and apart from a 'suspicious mark discovered in the neighbourhood of Buck's-row was in Broad-street where there was a stain which might have been blood', there was no evidence of blood being found anywhere other than where the body was found.
What we are left with therefore are press reports, which are notoriously unreliable, nonetheless it makes for an interesting possibility, of a chase, wounding and eventual murder.
The Star – Wednesday 5th September 1888
The noiselessness of 'Leather Apron's' movements recalls the statement of Mrs. Colwell, of Brady-street. She said that about the time the murder was said to have been committed she heard a woman running up the street shrieking "Murder; Police." "She was running away from somebody," said Mrs. Colwell, "who, from the way she screamed, was hurting her as she ran. And it struck me as very stange that I did not hear the sound of any footsteps.
This interesting because the reference to a statement implies that Mrs Colewell made an official statement of some kind. If this is the case it would be wonderful if this could be found, but one must also ask, why was it not heard at the inquest?
Lloyds Weekly Newspaper – Sunday 2nd September
The detectives at once searched the stable-yard and every vacant space in the vicinity in the hope of discovering some clue. None appeared, however. They kept a sharp look-out for the knife with which the deed was done, but found no trace of it. Everything seemed to indicate that the murder was actually committed some distance away. The people living in Brady-street were thrown into a state of excitement on the terrible news spreading. Brady-street is a long thoroughfare that runs to the left from the bottom of Buck's-row. Early on Friday morning fresh blood stains were observed for quite a distance along the side walks. There would be drop after drop two or three feet, and sometimes six feet apart for a distance, and then a larger pool or splash. As soon as the murder became known a lively interest was taken in these blood-stains, and they began to be traced. They were soon found to be on both sides of the street, and it was afterwards seen that the bleeding person had travelled or been carried in a zig-zag line. The trail was easily followed down Brady-street for 150 yards to Honey's-mews. In front of the gateway there was a large stain, looking as if the bleeding person had fallen against the wall and lain there. From here to the foot of Buck's-row, in which the body was found, the trail of blood was clearly marked. It was wet on Friday morning, and at noon, although the sun had dried it, and there had been many feet passing over it, it was still plainly discernible. The zig-zag direction it took crossing and re-crossing the street was and is a matter of mystery. In the space of a hundred yards the woman crossed the narrow street twice, and whenever she crossed a larger stain of blood in place of the drops indicated that she had stopped.
Lloyds Weekly Newspaper – Sunday September 9th
An important statement, throwing considerable light on a point hitherto surrounded with some uncertainty - the time the crime was committed in Buck's-row, or the body deposited there - was made on Thursday by Mrs. Harriet Lilley, who lives two doors from the spot where the deceased was discovered. Mrs. Lilley said: I slept in the front of the house, and could hear everything that occurred in the street. On that Thursday night I was somehow very restless. Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was dark, but a luggage train went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distinctly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint. I then woke my husband, and said to him, "I don't know what possesses me, but I cannot sleep to-night." Mrs. Lilley added that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The cries were very different from those of an ordinary street brawl.
It has been ascertained that on the morning of the date of the murder a goods train passed on the East London railway at about half-past three - the 3.7 out from New-cross - which was probably the time when Mary Ann Nicholls was either killed or placed in Buck's-row
Lloyds Weekly Newspaper – Sunday 2nd September
Halfway down the street is the house of Mrs. Green. Next to it is a large stable-yard, whose wide closed gateway is next to the house. In front of this gateway the woman was found. Constable Neill, who was the first policeman to see the body, immediately after woke the Green family, and asked them if they had heard any unusual noise. Neither Mrs. Green, her son, or her daughter, all of whom were sleeping within a few feet of where the body lay, had heard any outcry. All agreed that the night was unusually quiet.
"I should have heard it had there been any, I think," said Mrs. Green, when interviewed, "for I have trouble with my heart, and am a very light sleeper. My son went down as soon as the body was taken away and washed away the bloodstains on the pavement. There was quite a little pool, though I understand most of it soaked into the woman's dress. I looked out and saw the body as it lay there. It was lying straight across the gateway, its head towards me. It was not lying in a heap as if it had fallen, but on its back and straight as if it had been laid there. I could not tell at first whether it was a man or a woman; but James, my son, who went downstairs, returned and told me it was a woman. This was four o'clock on Friday morning."
Across the row lives a Mr. Perkins, whose wife is not very well. They sleep in the front room, and either Mr. Perkins or his wife was awake at short intervals up to four o'clock on Friday morning. Neither heard the slightest sound in the street, and both agreed that it was an unusually quite night, as there are sometimes brawls and fights or drunken men passing the house, which disturb their sleep. They were sure that there was no outcry loud enough to be heard a few feet away. The watchman in Schneider's factory, just above the Perkins's, heard nothing.
This last one is intriguing, which is why I include it. Much is often made of the fact that no-one in Bucks Row heard the murder however note in the previous extract the mention of a train passing on the Great Eastern Line at 3.30am. Those who live in close proximity to railway lines often hardly notice the noise of a train passing as it becomes a background detail to them. Supposing a train passing at 3.30am masked any sounds of JtR murdering Mary Ann Nichols to those living close by. It would also neatly time the murder at 3.30am approx. Sadly no proof of course.
D_I
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2794
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
I think you are absolutely right in your opinions.
And as for the sleeping woman, I believe that was in the Essex Wharf building, just above the murder scene (although I am not prepared to swear on it without my books folded up).
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Hi D.I,
Those statements have always led me to believe that Nichols was attacked in Brady Street, there is also the report that the victim attempted to gain access to a house witnesed by the occupants little girl and also her mother.
I feel strongly that nichols was attacked and chased from Brady street until she fell in Bucks row, and she try to Zig -Zag away from her attacker en- route, who i believe either because intoxicated, or deformed was not the most speedy on foot.
Richard. |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 19
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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So are you saying, Richard, that these extensive bloodstains, apparently leaving no conclusion but that Polly was killed someway away from where cross found her body was:
a) covered up by the police and by all witnesses at the inquest;
b) was totally ignored, deliberately covered up by means of categorical denials in reports of the murder written by the police (see Sourcebook);
c) disappeared before police arrived on the scene, but after being seen by press and/or locals.
If it happened, ONE of those options MUST be right.
Actually, I believe the reports are post hoc embellishments, without substance. To be generous, maybe akin to the urine stains in Hanbury St, said to have been blood. More likely, made up out of whole cloth.
If the locals really knew/had seen those things, would they not have told the police?
Who were the woman and child who saw the victim trying to get into a house. In which street did they live, at what number?
If the body bled as freely as must have been the case to provide the level of stains the press report, in the quotes above, Jack must have been covered with and reeking of gore. Sorry, I just don't see it.
Moreover, I know from my researches into the Roswell (UFO) mystery some years ago, that even recent events have evidence invented, which when pursued has no substance, no demonstrable basis, that can be relied upon. I feel that is the case here.
Sure we all WANT to believe these things, but I do not personally find it credible that there was a cover-up least of all in this particular case. There was little enough evidence anyway - bloodstains would have been seized upon.
Sorry, but these reports and their implications just do NOT stand up to rigorous scrutiny, or close textual criticism.
Phil |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 286
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
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Hello all,
There is no reason at all to believe that Mrs. Colwell heard Polly Nichols running along Brady Street as a man with silent feet chased her, beating her. For one, how could Mrs. Colwell have heard the sound of blows from inside her house and above the sound of the woman screaming and running? Also, if this occured, there would be bruises about Polly's back or on the back of her head. There weren't. More than likely she DID hear SOMEONE running and being loud. Not uncommon. The police didn't take her evidence seriously, and this may have had to do with the time she heard the incident. As for Mrs. Purkiss and her husband, not much stock should be put into the fact that they didn't hear the murder take place. After all, a number of policemen scurried outside their windows with lanterns, talking and clacking their heels, yet they didn't awake until their door was knocked upon.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 4:49 am: |
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Hi Phil,
Are you saying that all these reports are fiction, even the detailed report on the blood splashes on both sides of the street, does that report not go hand in hand with Mrs colwells report ie; someone being chased.
The woman who claimed that her daughter woke her saying 'Mummy someone is trying to get in the door'and then hearing 'Help murder'are we suggesting that this woman lied incriminating her little daughter.
is it not possible that the police played down this vicious attack, because they were concerned over panic reaction.?
I accept that newspaper reports are never totally accurate, but some are, it is up to the individual to try and decifer which ones.
Regards Richard. |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:39 am: |
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I think you have to produce MUCH better evidence that the police "played down" an attack like that on Polly in INTERNAL reports (who was going to panic? Anderson?) or misled an Inquest (a very serious offence).
I would ALWAYS assume that the official record is the more accurate (ie verbatim transcripts; we know who wrote things down and when) against press reports, UNLESS there is specific evidence to show we should not do so. Such specific evidence would include at least indications that there was known corruption or conspiracy, or that other records in the case had been DELIBERATELY falsified.
In this case we know that senior policemen like Arnold commented on the amount of blood in the stable-entry where the body was found, or its being washed away. Is it likely that he would have done so, in the circumstances your quoted press articles imply, without mentioning the very evident trails along the street?
There are also numerous mentions of the search of adjoining streets, checking local houses, looking for the marks of vehicles, which almost specifically CONTRADICT the assertions of the media quotes.
Why for instance should the police have an interest in whether there were the wheel marks of a "trap" (clearly in regard to the body having been brought from elsewhere) if there were clearly evident bloodstains to indicate that it almost certainly had.
In conclusion, the mass of evidence AGAINST the press reports is such that I am absolutely certain that they are incorrect in general and in detail.
I rest my case, m'lud.
Phil |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 21
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:21 am: |
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I have tried to apply the same sort of textual criticism to these reports as I would to any historic document. The questions are for anyone who believes that these reports contain even a grain of truth.
The Star – Wednesday 5th September 1888
“…the statement of Mrs. Colwell, of Brady-street.”
Do we have any evidence (street directories/ census?) of such a woman living in Brady Street at that date?
Statement to whom? Police?(no trace, to my knowledge); press> (which I think it is) we have.
“She said that about the time the murder was said to have been committed… “
Which was when?
“… she heard a woman running up the street shrieking….running away from somebody…[who] was hurting her as she ran. “
Which of the injuries on Nichols’ body do you contend were caused by this action?
Lloyds Weekly Newspaper – Sunday 2nd September
“The detectives at once searched the stable-yard and every vacant space in the vicinity in the hope of discovering some clue…”
Which stable yard, I wonder, and when?
“None appeared, however.”
So no bloodstains there then!!
“The people living in Brady-street were thrown into a state of excitement on the terrible news spreading. “
Precisely the right soil for rumour and speculation to breed.
“Early on Friday morning fresh blood stains were observed for quite a distance along the side walks. There would be drop after drop two or three feet, and sometimes six feet apart for a distance, and then a larger pool or splash.”
So quite a quantity then? Why was this not seen before. I don't find this sequence logical.
“As soon as the murder became known a lively interest was taken in these blood-stains, and they began to be traced. “
Are we to take it that no one thought “Oooh lot’s of bloodstains, maybe there’s been a crime?” But ignored them until reports of a murder made them make a connection? Does anyone believe that likely?
“They were soon found to be on both sides of the street, and it was afterwards seen that the bleeding person had travelled or been carried in a zig-zag line. The trail was easily followed down Brady-street for 150 yards to Honey's-mews. In front of the gateway there was a large stain, looking as if the bleeding person had fallen against the wall and lain there. From here to the foot of Buck's-row, in which the body was found, the trail of blood was clearly marked.”
Please indicate where on the clothing of the victim there is any indication of bleeding in this manner, on the body or where it was found, that shows the murder to have been committed elsewhere than it was found?
The neck was almost cut through – how was the head kept on – why was Polly’s face not covered in blood?
If the press had this information in their possession, why was the Inquest not at once challenged? He press MUST have been aware that either the police were corrupt or incompetent, and the press were not pro-Met at that time or later? This does not add up.
“It was wet on Friday morning, and at noon, although the sun had dried it, and there had been many feet passing over it, it was still plainly discernible.”
So the police were clearly incompetent but no one pointed out that fact!!
Lloyds Weekly Newspaper – Sunday September 9th
"… Mrs. Harriet Lilley, who lives two doors from the spot where the deceased was discovered…”
Do we have evidence of her identity and domicile?
“Mrs. Lilley said: I slept in the front of the house, and could hear everything that occurred in the street. On that Thursday night I was somehow very restless. Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was dark, but a luggage train went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distinctly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint. I then woke my husband, and said to him, "I don't know what possesses me, but I cannot sleep to-night." Mrs. Lilley added that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The cries were very different from those of an ordinary street brawl.”
The cries she described were not those of a brawl anyway!! Note she made no connection with a crime until she heard of the murder. Second the noises she heard could as readily have been an earlier couple doing business at the spot where Polly took Jack.
“It has been ascertained that on the morning of the date of the murder a goods train passed on the East London railway at about half-past three - the 3.7 out from New-cross - which was probably the time when Mary Ann Nicholls was either killed or placed in Buck's-row…”
Mrs L (assuming she existed) would probably have known all about the trains anyway.
Lloyds Weekly Newspaper – Sunday 2nd September
“Halfway down the street is the house of Mrs. Green…”
Well at least we know she existed.
“Next to it is a large stable-yard, whose wide closed gateway is next to the house. In front of this gateway the woman was found. Constable Neill, who was the first policeman to see the body, immediately after woke the Green family, and asked them if they had heard any unusual noise. Neither Mrs. Green, her son, or her daughter, all of whom were sleeping within a few feet of where the body lay, had heard any outcry. All agreed that the night was unusually quiet. “
So Mrs L lived further away, yet heard more?.
“My son went down as soon as the body was taken away and washed away the bloodstains on the pavement. There was quite a little pool, though I understand most of it soaked into the woman's dress.”
So did he not bother with the other extensive trail of blood?
Sorry, I still don’t find this convincing.
Phil
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 476
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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See Begg's book The Facts. The sounds of an argument going on were originally reported around midnight, which would be too early to be related to the Nichols murder. Only later in press reports did the time get switched, probably to make a better story, either on the part of the press or the person being interviewed. Press reports are notoriously unreliable, and with these we can see how the story evolved. As they contradict official records on several points, they don't seem reliable in the slightest.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:50 pm: |
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Blimey - that stirred up the debate a little. As I said these are only press reports and they contradict the inquest evidence. I commented on them only to show that there certainly seemed to be a local belief in a chase, even if it was based on rumour and led to inaccurate press reports. I don't think we can base theories on them without supporting evidence, thus they must remain curios for now.
Clearly Richard has a suspect in mind and is I believe writing a book so it would be uncouth of me to ask who his suspect is at this time.
All the best
D_I
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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Hi D I,
I can not believe anyone does not know the number one suspect by now,
Do they?.
Richard. |
DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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Richard
You've got me mate! There are so many 'viable' suspects! Are you going to tell us...
D_I |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1259
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:55 pm: |
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Hi D I,
sorry mate I forgot you are a new poster, people sometimes cringe at the mention of his name , so start cringing folks.
Joseph Barnett.
Richard, |
DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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Richard
I may be a new poster in this guise but I was on the old site too. Been something of a Ripperologist for something over twenty years although perhaps only seriously for the last twelve. I'd have to say Casebook is the best thing since sliced bread for us!
Barnett is one of my top three suspects so I'm not cringing:
1. Kosminski/Cohen
2. Barnett
3. Tumblety
I do however like some of the lesser researched candidates, such as Hyam Hyams and basically anyone who does not fall into the plainly ridiculous category, such as Maybrick, Lewis Carol, Royals, Sickert etc etc.
All the best
D_I 
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