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Billy Markland
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 10:05 pm: | 
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Stephen, please put this were it best fits.
One thing that has always disturbed me regarding the Whitechapel murders was that the lack of noise had always been attributed, by the majority opinion, to the fact that the victims' were strangled until they lost conciousness, after which their throats' were cut. This theory, if I am remembering correctly, is used to encompass both the silence of the kill as well as the reduced amount of blood.
My observation is simply this: If there was strangulation, there should have been finger marks across the throat of the victim. Without delving into the UJtR (I can't find it, the wife embarked on a "straighten-up" campaign this summer) I can only remember one victim who had bruises and they were on her chin area.
As strangulation marks should be a familiar "trait" to the doctors of that area who examined the victims, why weren't the bruises notated? Is it because they saw none?
I think that we will need a doctor to give us some kind of definitive answer regarding this: If the cartoid artery is compressed manually & severely enough to cause unconciousness, how long would it take the bruise to form, considering that the throat/artery was cut within a minute or two after?
Best of wishes,
Billy |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 6:08 pm: |
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Billy;
There is a difference between a manual strangulation, and a ligature strangulation.
Bruises in the shape of the half moon shape of the fingers or fingernails would be very obvious, however ligatures can be anything from a thin wire, which would leave a definite mark, to a soft scarf or collar, which may only leave a slight imprint. The bruising on the face seems to show that either a hand was pressed over the mouth very hard, or the chin was held firmly while cutting the throat.
See the Rose Mylett murder, where a cord imprint was seen on the neck.
The bruises that are made while alive will still bloom and show in death, as the blood is trapped in the tissues.
Good questions!
Joan |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 156
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 1:59 am: |
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An old thread, but I think it merits a further reply nonetheless. . . .
Strangulation is not always readily apparent; sometimes, according to Dr. Michael Baden, former Chief Medical Examiner for the state of New York, the only way to determine death due to strangulation is by dissecting the structures of the neck. Such an examination can determine if there are petechiae on the surfaces of the neck organs and if the tiny hyoid bone has been broken, which is almost always a sure sign that strangulation of some kind has taken place. This is not to say that every strangulation victim's hyoid bone is broken; in younger victims (i.e., below age 40), the bones are less brittle and so are less likely to break under strain. This is particularly true in cases of so-called "soft strangulation," which occurred in the murders committed by serial killer Arthur Shawcross, and leaves virtually no telltale marks. Furthermore, and with no disrespect to the police surgeons of the time, but they were not trained forensic pathologists. Given the kind of minute attention to detail as is frequently necessary in strangulation cases, it is eminently possible that such evidence, if it existed, was simply overlooked. Even Dr. Baden, who has hundreds (if not more) autpsies to his credit, has stated that "In general, the most difficult cause of death to determine -- from a medical examiner's point of view -- are deaths from strangulation or suffocation."
I'm doing some research on Billy's final question regarding the length of time it takes for contusions to form, and if the subsequent cutting of the throat would negate the appearance of bruising. I'll let you know what I find out, but my first impulse is say that no, a bruise need not be present following strangulation if death occurs very shortly thereafter. I would, however, expect to see petechiae on the inner surfaces of the neck organs and perhaps in the eyes and under the fingernails as well.
Brad, Shannon, anyone else who knows a bit about medicine--care to weigh in on this one?
P.S. Speaking of bruises, I'd be curious to know what color those found on Stride's shoulders were. Would tell us a lot about their age.
P.P.S. I am currently sporting a lovely little hematoma under one of my fingernails (the garage door bit me) and it took nearly a week to appear. (In case you're wondering, hematomas are basically more serious bruises accompanied by a good deal of swelling).
(Message edited by Rapunzel676 on December 22, 2003)
(Message edited by Rapunzel676 on December 22, 2003) |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 189
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 2:00 am: |
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A follow-up on this issue:
I was watching a program tonight on CourtTV which detailed the crimes of a Florida serial killer. What struck me the most was the way in which the victims were killed. A few months back I mentioned the possibility of "soft strangulation" with regard to Stride; this term (or one very close to it) was used to describe the manner of death in the early victims of the Florida murderer. They had barely "a scratch on them," according to law enforcement officials; one detective mentioned that the medical examiner had trouble determining the cause of death in these early cases because there were so few signs. Later the killer progressed to beating his victims, which made determining the cause of death easier. Still, I thought it worth noting mentioning that there are in fact cases where victims of strangulation were left with few, if any, marks. I have to wonder if the same thing might have occurred in the Ripper case.
P.S. The murders abruptly stopped for a five-month period. The killer later explained this break as a period of reconciliation with his wife. Curiouser and curiouser. . . . |
Nicole
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 2:18 pm: |
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The real cases, from real happen in one Asia country, happen last 20 years, now in one film.
The scenes from the film I have find at:
http://www.geocities.jp/killing_of_lady/scenes.html
Some of the scenes are very real and really choking!
But the real cases are far more shock able, then the scenes from that film, what I have read in newspaper is absolutely horrible things. The local authorities make the cases invisible and try to do so, like nothing happen. But it is ...
The victims are always young girls sometimes under 10 years old and the special mark of the killer the wood dorm in body of victim, is one more sign, but this is not visible.
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