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Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 7:21 pm: |       |
Would someone be kind enough to answer a couple of questions I have regarding "cachous"?
The first time I saw the word in connection with Liz Stride's death, many years ago, I though perhaps it was a British spelling for "cashews", the snack nuts (it made sense, as in "In her hand she clutched a small packet of cashews").
I read in Philip Sugden's "Complete History" that cachous were/are "small aromatic sweetmeats". I'm an American living way out west in a tiny town, and I'm still not clear on this (I hope these aren't stupid questions, but I really don't know what these things are):
1. How, exactly, do you pronounce "cachous"?
2. What, exactly, are they like? Crunchy, soft & chewy? Are they like rock candy, or more like "Altoids"?
Thanks in advance! |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 5:46 pm: | |
Hi Steve; If you do a google search on cachous, you will find that they are actually still being sold, in decorative tins and in different flavours. They appear in the picture to be small, round candies, sort of like our modern day Tic Tac mints. They were used to sweeten the breath (probably by smokers),but I don't know if they are soft or hard,you could always order some and tell us!
Hope this helps,
Joan |
Faye
Sergeant
Username: Faye
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:57 pm: | |
Hey
I looked it up and to my suprise it is a type of candy that I used to eat as a kid. They are hard and the taste is kind of minty (although there are variations). You can buy them in any candy store in the Netherlands (not under that name). They are quite cheap, perhaps 1 euro each, if not less.
Hope that helps. |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 303
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 1:31 pm: | |
Hi, Steve:
Faye and Joan have given you some good information on cachous. I believe the pronunciation would be exactly the same as for "cashews" which does not help the confusion between the two!
All the best
Chris |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 1:00 pm: | |
Faye,
Thank you, too! |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:02 am: | |
Thank you, Joan!
Found the pictures; I also found an audio dictionary online with the pronounciation.
As for ordering some ... when it comes to very old fashioned breath fresheners, I think I'll stay with Sen-Sen.
Thanks again!
Steve |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 2:20 pm: | |
How do you pronounce cachous?
Try 'Kahz-MIHN-skee.'
Saddam
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Myxptlyk
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 4:25 pm: | |
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Steven Atkins
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 9:04 am: | |
Hi,
The fact that Stride was still clutching the cachous when her body was found tells us quite a lot.
Firstly it tells us that the cutting of her throat was performed so rapidly that she didn't even have time to defend herself.
The reflex that would have caused her to grasp her knife wielding attackers arms with both hands,or alternatively to clutch her own throat,didn't even stand a chance!
It is clear from Schwartz's statement that Stride did not in any way fear for her life as the slightly tipsy man struggled to drag her out of Dutfield's yard.
Schwartz also tells us that,failling attempts to pull Stride away from the yard,her attacker threw her to the ground,whereupon she let out three half hearted screams.
All this tends to strongly support the idea that Long Liz knew her attacker.
But hang on a minute! something isn't quite right here.
Could these little breath fresheners tell us even more?
If Stride was being pulled and thrown about by this man,would she have stood there,arms limp by her side holding the cachous?
No of course not,she would have been pushing the drunken Idiot away with both hands dropping the sweets as she did so.
But Long Liz was found with the sweetmeats in her hand!
"They may have been in her pocket at the time" I hear you cry!
I think it is safe to assume that Stride would not have plucked the confectionary from her pocket during the attack.
Now this leaves us with the possibility that whoever was trying to drag stride out in to the street(Michael Kidney perhaps?)gave up and went away.
Stride then picked herself up,dusted herself off,pulled out the cachous and freshened herself up for the next paying customer.possibly someone casualy waiting his turn?
Maybe his Tobbacco breath wasn't quit as sweet as Stride's!
Steven.
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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 300
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 10:38 am: | |
Hi Steven,
I can very well go along with your scenario, and it looks very much like the one I've had in mind. The cachous is just one of several details that doesen't go together with the idea that Schwartz's man was the killer.
All the best.
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 385
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 7:26 am: | |
Hi Steven and Glenn,
Yes, I can't follow the scenario which others would have us consider:
Kidney has had a few, he locates Stride, approaches her and treats her roughly; she is used to him getting a bit physical at times, but is not expecting to end up fighting for her life, so holds on to her cachous and waits for him to calm down again and leave her alone; but then what?
How is Kidney supposed to be behaving in the interval between the witnessed assault and the moment when he goes all the way and slits her throat? And how is Stride reacting? Is she still supposed to be feeling safe in his hands the instant before the knife arrives in one of them?
Usually, when a domestic argument starts with an assault and so quickly ends in murder, the abuser is very obviously losing it, becoming angrier and more threatening with each passing second, so if his victim feels relatively safe to begin with, it won't take long for her to realise he isn't about to snap out of it, and she will have to start defending herself pretty sharpish.
I can't see Kidney changing strategy after the initial assault and regaining his cool, just so he can catch Stride completely off her guard (and still clutching her cachous) and finish her off without a struggle.
Seems to me this wife-abusing bully is suddenly supposed to have taken lessons from Jack mid-fight, and without his ex-missus being any the wiser.
Or did Jack step in to finish the little game that Kidney, or some disgruntled punter, started?
Love,
Caz
|
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 323
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 7:31 am: | |
Hi Caz,
Couldn't agree with you more.
And by the way, I for my part think your last sentence (about Jack "filling in" after first man's assault and the leaving of the witnesses) is the crucial point. None of us can prove that is what happened, but somehow it appeals to my reasoning, at least.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 8:30 am: | |
Caz, if it had been Kidney she was with and (and its a big and) Israel really did see the two of them fighting, he would have been able to recognize him at the inquest into her death as the man he saw her with that night. I vote for someone other that Michael...
Shannon |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 709
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 8:53 am: | |
G'day Shannon,
Ahhhhhhh, Israel Schwartz didn't appear at Stride's inquest.
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 883
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 9:33 am: | |
Nevertheless, Leanne, I think Shannon has a point here : the police would probably have asked Schwartz to have a look at Kidney at some point. One more reason why i don't believe that Kidney killed Stride.
However, I believe they would also have asked Lawende and Schwartz to take a look at Barnett. One more reason why I don't believe Barnett killed anyone.
Robert |
Alan Sharp
Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 9:48 am: | |
Except that you have to remember that these women were (allegedly) prostitutes. Approaching men on the street would be part of their business and would be something they would do numerous times on an average night. It does not necessarily follow that the men they were seen talking to were their killers. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 884
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 10:14 am: | |
Hi Alan
Yes, I doubt if Schwartz's man killed Stride. As for Lawende's man, it makes the timetable very tight if he wasn't the killer...unless it wasn't Eddowes whom Lawende saw.
Robert |
Alan Sharp
Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 41
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 10:23 am: | |
Or unless the killer was already in Mitre Square (or approaching it from another direction) and encountered Eddowes there. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 885
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 10:45 am: | |
Possible, Alan. What do you think of the witnesses Monty mentioned (Mylett thread)?
Robert |
Alan Sharp
Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 11:22 am: | |
I don't know about these witnesses. The only witness I remember from St James Square is Blenkinsop and his well dressed man. Do you have a reference for where these other unidentified witnesses are mentioned? |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 287
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:37 pm: | |
Alan,
The 2 Mitre sq unidentified witness are mentioned in the A-Z page 295.
These people saw a couple (a man with a fair moustache aged around 30, no description of the female) at the end of the Mitre sq entry of Church passage from their vantage point in St James sq. This means that they would had to have observed them along St James passage. It also means that they could not have been Blenkinsopp or Lewande & co as it clearly states 2 people in St James sq.
It was reported in The Daily Telegraph 12th Nov 1888. The report also stated that the City police where on the look out for these witnesses. Damn the blitz !! We have lost the records that could have verified this report.
The reason Im intrigued by this is that a cutting was preserved in the Scotland Yard files. Why ?
The police must have been interested.
Monty
|
Alan Sharp
Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 44
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
Thanks. The A-Z is one of the few books I don't actually have! I must get round to getting it. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 291
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 9:50 am: | |
Alan,
Ive been trying to search for it in the press report shortcut but to no avail.
Monty
PS A-Z outta print mate. Sorry. I think The Eddlestons book or the Sourcebook may hold something on that report. |
Ellen Gander
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 11:31 am: | |
Hi Steve,
About those cachous mints. I purchased some while in Bermuda last summer. I absolutely love them, particularly the lavendar scented ones. They are made in England by the Chambers Candy Company, but there are distributors in the U.S. I found some in a small store in New Hampshire recently. The little bead-like candies are quite hard but melt rapidly on the tongue.Hope this helps. |
Liz Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
Hi Alan
regarding the out of print "The Jack the Ripper A-Z" try www.bookfinder.com or www.abebooks.com they have used copies of rare and out of print books and this one is available ( 2 copies) none in uk though unfortunately!.
Liz
|
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 310
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 10:02 am: | |
Thanks Liz, I picked one up a month or two ago but thanks for the links. |
Conor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 3:55 am: | |
Hmm what about the possiblity the murder placed the sweets in her hands? If the killer was someone close to her with a history of violence there would have been signs of struggles (dropping the sweets) but placing the sweets in her hands afterwards could have made it seem like a hit and run by a random attacker. |
Boon Gowers
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:51 pm: | |
Steven et al,
Your scenario is closest to the truth in my humble opinion. Having been assaulted by Kidney (or someone else she knew), Liz moved into the yard to freshen up. (I presume there was some source of water in the yard...?) She was holding her Cachous when surprised by her killer, which is why she gripped them out of fear, rather than dropping them to defend herself. The killer could have been Jack or Kidney returning to finish his work. (Caz: my research into the legal defence of provocation has shown me that some men, particularly of certain ethnic groups, suffer 'slow-burn' anger, and commonly come back to kill after an initial assault!) But what makes me think that she was surprised in the yard, which she entered alone, is the curious fact about her scarf being tightly knotted up towards her left ear. If she had been cleaning herself up outside the yard ready for the next customer, as you suggest Steven, then surely one of the first things she would have done was to rearrange her scarf...
So I don't think Jack could simply have been the next paying customer whom she took into the yard. Rather, she was either IN THE PROCESS of cleaning up in the yard when surprised, or she was dragged into the yard when unconscious and unable to resist (or she would have dropped the Caschous).
Finally, she was not found in possession of any coins, though she would have been if she entered the yard to service a client. (If the killer was interrupted he certainly didn't have time to retrieve the coins as he arguably did with Chapman)!
Hoping this thread is not dead,
Boon Gowers} |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 919
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 1:00 pm: | |
I am currently doing some work on the Ripper section of Lacassagne's work "Vacher et les crimes Sadiques".
One line in the passage about Stride's murder puzzled me and I am currently at a dead end. He refers to the cachous as follows:
"la main gauche appuyée sur le sol tient un petit paquet de cachou enveloppé dnas du papier Joseph" i.e. the left hand laying on the ground holds a small packet of cachous wrapped in some Joseph paper
Does anyone have any idea what is meant by "Joseph paper" please?
All info very gratefully received!
Chris |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2992
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 1:09 pm: | |
Hi Chris -
Papier Joseph is "fine transparent filter paper" according to Harrap's.
I believe "tissue paper" would be an appropriate translation.
Some more information:
Joseph and Etienne de Montgolfier (approx. 1740-1810) were trained in chemistry, physics, and architecture, and became principal directors of the family paper industry. Their genius produced a number of innovative manufacturing techniques which commanded wide notice in that industry. Among them, apparently was <I>papier Joseph</I>.
Joseph commenced active aeronautical experiments in 1771, and was later joined by Etienne. Their initial experiments involved inflammable gas, later called hydrogen. After observing that the products of combustion tended to rise, they produced a successful small silk balloon of four cubic feet. On June 5,1783 they launched a 309 foot diameter linen and paper spherical balloon, open at the bottom to receive heat from a fire on the ground. The balloon rose to a height of 6000 feet and was aloft for ten minutes.
On September 19, of that year, from the palace grounds at Versailles, the brothers launched the first living creatures - a duck, a sheep, and a rooster - on a successful eight minute two-mile flight in a hot air balloon. This was followed shortly by a larger 79,000 cubic foot capacity balloon carrying its own hot air source as well as a circular gallery for passengers. Following a rigid tethered-test program they launched this vehicle on its first manned free flight of 25 minutes duration over Paris. The date was November 21,1783. Although denied the privilege of being passengers on this historic first flight of man, it was their genius and spirit which launched mankind on its conquest of the air.
(Message edited by admin on February 26, 2004)
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 920
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 1:17 pm: | |
many thanks Stephen for your rapid and very helpful reply!
Chris
|
Michael Raney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 125
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 3:41 pm: | |
Stephen,
Wow, fascinating! I had heard of them before in connection with the birth of hot air balloons but did not know anything of their flights. Quite interesting.
Mikey |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 7:31 pm: | |
Hi Boon; I also have a similar scenario for Liz that goes as follows;
Liz had a few beers at the Bricklayer's (pub) and was seen walking about the area for several hours afterwards, talking and strolling about with several different gentlemen.
She seemed to be waiting around the club until closing time, perhaps for customers, but more likely for someone that she hoped might be in there. Needing to use the washroom, she went across to the yard where there was a privy. (There were two privies, one locked and one unlocked) As she approaches the gate, she sees Michael Kidney rolling down the street.
He grabs her and makes her give him her sixpence she earned earlier cleaning the lodging house, so she gives it to him to get rid of him,(sort of a divorce settlement).
The club is going to be coming out soon, so she hurries to the toilet, straightens up, and reaches into her pocket for her breath fresheners.
At this point, she is accosted by someone waiting in the dark doorway of the club, who grabs her by the scarf and "hangs her" until she is passing out. Her hand is stuck in her pocket (have you ever fallen down with your hands in your pockets and can't get them out fast enough to break your fall?) so she can't use that hand to defend herself.
The killer lays her down and slits her throat, but there is too much going on with the club noises and the sound of an approaching horse and wagon, so he must leave the scene.
Liz had some blood on her right hand, so I believe that she started to regain conciousness and flopped her hand toward her throat, and this is the movement that startled the horse. Remember the blood was still flowing when they found her so it was very soon after the act that the horse came by.
Now Michael Kidney hears the next day about the murder, and he really can't remember much about the night before, so he isn't sure if he was seen around Liz that night and could be identified.
He brazenly goes to the police station for "help" to capture the murderer, but I think he just wanted to see if they had anything on him, risking possible arrest. When the police let him go on his way, he figures he is in the clear whether he did it or not.
How does that sound? A good bedtime story anyway.
Joan
|
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 222
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 9:10 pm: | |
I suspect that Liz may simply have kept the cauchous rolled up in tissue paper (thanks Steven) and tucked up the sleeve of her left arm. My Grandmother used to keep tissues there, which is what made me think of this whole idea. If the wrist area is snug, this works well enough. And, given the lack of pockets, etc, puts them in an easy to reach location.
So, when Liz is assaulted, they come loose and fall out into her hand. Since she's now on the ground, they just lay in the palm of her hand until she's found.
I'm assuming, of course, this all happens with her arm restrained by her killer as he cuts her throat and waits for her to stop struggling (or, if she's been strangled), that this "coming loose" occurs as she's laid down, etc.
Although this scenario is no more provable (or disprovable) than most others, it doesn't require Stride to get the candies out just after being assaulted.
- Jeff |
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19th Century Cachous