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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 525
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 8:08 pm: |       |
G'day Gary,
No mate, I haven't set eyes on Paul Harrison's book! It say's here that he researched the wrong Joseph Barnett, but that's not what we are discussing here is it?
ROBERT: At Stride's inquest, Dr. Phillips said: "My reason for supposing deceased was injured when on the ground was partly on account of the absence of blood anywhere but on the left side of the body, and between that side and the wall."
Before that, the coroner asked: "Does the presence of the cachous in her hand show that it was done suddenly, or would it simply show a muscular grasp?"
DR. PHILLIPS: "No; I cannot say. You will remember some of the cachous were found in the gutter."
LEANNE |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 123
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
Hello Eveyrone
I have found the quote I was looking for in th A-Z regarding Stride and her candidacy as a JTR victim. It on page 436 and is worth quoting at length. Perhaps Martin will comment later.
'THE AUTHORS ARE IMPRESSED BY THE COMPLETE CONCURRENCE OF THE ARRAY OF CONTEMPORARY SENIOR POLICEMEN, WITH EVIDENCE AT THEIR DISPOSAL WHICH IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO US. NEVERTHELESS,WE FEEL COMPELLED TO POINT OUT THE FOLLOWING DETAILS DIFFERENTIATING STRIDE'S MURDER FROM THE OTHER VICTIMS:
(i) NO ABDOMINAL MUTILATIONS.
(ii) NO EXTRAVASATION OF BLOOD IN NECK AND HEAD REGION, WHICH WOULD INDICATE ASPHYXIATION BEFORE THROAT-CUTTING.
(iii)INJURIES CAUSED BY A SHORT, BROAD, POSSIBLY BLUNT KNIFE WITH A BEVELLED END, UNLIKE THE LONG NARROW-BLADED KNIFE SHARPENED TO A POINT USED IN THE OTHER CASES.
(iv) POSITION OF BODY INDICATING FALLING ON ITS LEFT SIDE, RATHER THAN ON THE BACK AS IN THE OTHER CASES.
(v) THE ASSUALT WITNESSED BY SCHWARTZ, MADE BY A MAN WHOSE DRUNKENNESS, THREATENING SHOUT OF 'LIPSKI', AND CONTINUING FEROCITY IN THE PRESENCE OF MALE WITNESSES IS ALL QUITE INCOMPATIBLE WITH NORMAL CONDUCT OF SERIAL MURDERERS."
I would say that these factors as well as the fact that the throat was not slashed twice are the primary arguments against Stride being a JTR victim. As I said in a previous post I am ambivalent about whether Stride was a victim of
the ripper. I would put the odds at slightly greater than 60/40 that JTR was NOT the killer.
I believe that Stride was killed by a street thug or thugs if pipeman was a confederate.
Obviously if Stride was not a JTR victim, Schwartz' identification does not have the importance we have attached to it. If we discount Hutchinson as having made up a sighting to take scrutiny away from himself, we have Lawende as the key witness in the case. (I discount Sgt. Stephen White's identification beacause it was muddled as to the location and the killing and overly precise in its details regarding a man barely glimpsed. It sounds like an old drinking story which wasn't made public until it was printed in the 1920's.
(I could be completely wrong.)
Robert
Stride's shoulders showed signs of bruising as if she was pushed to the ground. if this is true then her throat was cut while she was on the ground because there could not be bruising after death. Then again the bruises could have easily come when she was thrown to the ground in front of the yard. I tend to believe her throat was cut from behind while she was standing. To stand in front would result in the killer getting blood splattered. The throat appears to have been cut from left to right since the incision dragged to the bottem right and the cause of death was severence of the left carotid artery. If she was standing when killed this could explain why she fell to her left. Or, the bruises could have indicated she was forced down on the ground while the killer quickly cut the throat from her right side since the wall blocked him on her left side.
I have trouble picturing the bodies positions as related to the various potential positions of the killer.
Best Regards
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 124
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 9:38 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
Harrison did ultimately identify and trace the wrong Barnett: But I don't think you can totally discount his arguments for finding Barnett per se as the Ripper.
As for the breath mints she could have dropped some, but the bag with the majority of the mints was identified to have been in her hand by those who found the body.
Best Regards
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 439
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 7:25 am: | |
Hi Gary, Leanne
Yes I hope Martin comes in. I keep meaning to get the A-Z but I want to make sure I get the very latest edition of it.
Maybe you're right Gary, in that the bruises or discolourations on the shoulders were the result of the attack by Schwartz's man. Leanne, I don't see any reason why he couldn't have forced her to the ground and then cut her throat, except for the cachous. For her not to have dropped them, he must have pushed her down remarkably quickly. I suppose there's the outside chance that she actually consented to lie on the ground, but everyone seems to think that's a very unlikely thing for a prostitute to have done.
I still don't understand why the knife had to be different.
I don't like going against the doctors. Blackwell seems to have thought she bled to death over 90 seconds, and Phillips thought she was pushed to the ground before her throat was cut. But something's got to give somewhere, I suppose.
Re the lack of strangulation, it's possible that Kelly wasn't strangled either, isn't it?
On the throat wound, is it possible Blackwell underestimated its severity - perhaps because a lot of the blood ran down the drain?
I'm puzzled why Phillips found no trace of liquor in the stomach.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 528
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 8:55 am: | |
G'day Gary,
I don't think the fact that her throat was only sliced once, indicates that her killer wasn't the Ripper. Remember he was likely disturbed! He may not have had time to inflinct a second slice!
LEANNE |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 126
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 10:27 am: | |
Hi Robert and Leanne
Didn't want you to think I was ignoring your questions. I have been called out of town for the day. I will answer ASAP.
All The Best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 127
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 10:40 am: | |
Okay, I admit it, I was asked to leave town by the locals.  |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 530
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 5:40 am: | |
G'day Robert,
It had been raining remember, and prostitutes could do it bending over! If she was on the ground before he sliced her throat, I don't think she would have consented to lay down.
LEANNE |
james naden
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 5:48 pm: | |
yes, but who did it? it was maybrick wasn't it? |
james naden
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 5:57 pm: | |
on the ground, it would have to be. There was a large amount of blood to the left of her head apool had developed, not much more splattered around, I think she was strangeled and when half conseous, her throat was cut (whilst on the ground, not struggling) along the mark made by strangulation. maybrick did it!
|
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 442
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 5:27 pm: | |
Leanne, I'm curious about the bonnet. Did all bonnets have to have strings, in order to be classed as bonnets? If so, it makes me wonder why her bonnet wasn't tied up - it seems to have been found off her head. Or is it me who's off my head
for worrying about such details?
James, if she was half-strangled, how explain the cachous still in her hand?
Robert |
Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 3:03 am: | |
One point that should not be overlooked in Strides case is the effect of a heat spike. The time of Strides death has always been fairly accurately calculated by the fact that her body was still warm when examined.
However this is overlooking the phenomina of a rise in body temperature after death caused possibly by a blow to the head or strangulation.
This means that she could have been killed before previously thought which also draws into question whether the cart did in fact 'disturb' her killer!
Bob
Source; Time of Death by J S Sachs |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 444
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 4:35 am: | |
Yes Bob. In "Forty Years of Murder" Prof Keith Simpson mentions finding a post-strangulation rectal temperature of 102 degrees F.
But I keep thinking about the cachous. If she was strangled first, surely she'd have dropped them in the struggle? If they weren't actually placed in her hand by the murderer or by one of the bystanders (which seems silly), then the only thing I can think of that would reconcile the cachous with strangulation, is if they had been tucked up the sleeve of her dress and somehow worked their way down into her hand. But this again seems highly unlikely - for one thing, they don't even seem to have been in a proper packet - more like wrapped in a folded piece of paper.
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 186
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:21 am: | |
Robert,
On the ground as mentioned by Gary.
Re my dragging by the scarf theory. I ran through it at the weekend. I think I shall rule that scenario out.
Joan,
You may be right, not instant...but pretty damn quick. Those Cachous were extremely hard to remove from her grip.
I see more of a combination of strangulation and slashing of the throat at the same time.
Would this work ? Jack dragging Stride to the floor with her scarf whilst cutting her throat.
This would mean a right handed Jack.
Again, a thought.
Monty
PS Robert, speaking to Mr Fido a few months ago and it looks like there is not going to be a new edition of A-Z. Hopefully the situation has changed since then. |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 446
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 4:34 pm: | |
Monty, Joan
Well, if it happened like that, it might explain the comparatively inexpert nature of the throat cut. I've been wondering whether the scarf played a role, not so much in hindering the knife as suggested by Mick, but in hindering the strangulation. Perhaps he tried to strangle her by hand in the normal way, but found he couldn't get a decent grip, a silk scarf presumably being a slippery thing to have to deal with. But once again there's the problem of those damned cachous in her hand.
Of course, the manner of killing may have been different because the murderer wasn't Jack.
Joan, a question specially for you. I believe that Nichols had a piece of glass, or a mirror or something like that on her. I've not found any reference to Chapman, Stride or Eddowes having any kind of mirror on them when found. Isn't this odd, especially for prostitutes? I'm not suggesting that the killer stole their mirrors or anything silly like that - I just think it's strange.
Robert |
Jeff Hamm
Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 5:45 pm: | |
Hi all,
The "heat spike" is something I've never heard about before! That's interesting. Since rigor sets in faster in warmer temperatures, do we know if this phenomenon has a similar influence? Meaning, does rigor set in faster because of this rise in body temperature? If Stride was killed earlier, then the "interuption" could be either Pipe man or Schwartz. He kills Stride so she can't identify him and he flees because either of the other 2 may fetch the police. This gives him more time to get away before the body is found. Mind you, wasn't the blood reported as still flowing, or "oozing" from her wound when she was found? Would a heat spike also extend the time for clot to set in?
The location of the cachous is interesting. I suppose two possible explanations, of which I'm sure there are many more, are 1) the killer put them there (an act of post-mortem posing) and 2) she was holding them at the time and when she reached up to defend herself from strangulation? they were trapped between her hand and her attacker's arm (let's say). So, when she fell unconscious, they were left wedged between her thumb and forefinger.
Both are a bit of a stretch, so probably neither is correct. The latter begs the question of why she had them out in the first place. Perhaps she normally kept them out until approached by a customer so she can sweaten her breath? When she was pushed down, she picks them back up because she either dropped them or they fell out of her pocket? Either way, she now has them in her hand. Then, she's attacked and the above "wedge" happens.
I'm into wild speculation country here, but since all we know is that the cachous were found in her hand, and not much else about them, well, they had to get there somehow. Perhaps there are just too many options available to limit the options. While posing would tell us something about her killer, her keeping them in her hand would tell us something about Stride. Unfortunately, we can't really decide "what happened" in order to suggest what it tells us.
- Jeff |
Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 6:13 pm: | |
I believe the cachous are a bit of a red herring. Stride has been sucking cachous because she is out on a date. She is accosted by someone she knows, someone she knows to be violent.
When the meeting turns violent she tries to protect herself. The natural instinct when you are threatened is to ball the fist - not open it. Therefore the cachous are trapped in her hand. Her assailant starts to pull at her, or strangle her or otherwise beat her. She tries to beat off the attack with her clenched fist, cachous still inside. He cuts her throat and she starts to bleed to death but with her last ounce of strength she is still trying to fight him off - still with clenched fist.
It is a most unatural thing to do when you are attacked to open a clenched fist.
Bob |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 447
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 7:19 pm: | |
Hi Jeff, Bob
Jeff, I can't help on the medical stuff - I'm going to have to read the Sachs book mentioned by Bob!
I doubt if the cachous were posed in her hand. Dutfield's Yard must have been a pretty dark place for someone to hunt around for a small packet of cachous on the floor, particularly if this is the scenario where the murderer is afraid that Schwartz or the other man may be coming back with the police.
Bob, I'm sure I remember your mentioning the Sachs book in connection with Kelly's murder, soon after the Boards reopened. Can you remember which thread that was on?
I agree that it's natural for a man to ball the fist, but don't women tend to slap, or scratch with the nails? However, Candy on the "Lipski or Lizzie?" thread believes Stride would have balled her fists, so maybe that's what they do.
But I feel a bit uneasy about the idea of Stride balling both fists. If she was sucking cachous, and holding the packet in her left hand, then she was putting them in her mouth with her right hand.The natural interpretation of this would be that she was right-handed. So she would have had to ball not only her "good hand", but the other one as well, which strikes me as being a bit strange.
The balled fist scenario might work if she was defending herself against a customer who'd turned ugly, but I'm not sure it works if the killer was Schwartz's man, because for her to have the cachous in her hand when she was killed it would mean that she either held onto them while being pushed to the ground, or retrieved them from the pavement with her attacker standing nearby, or fished them out of her pocket after she'd been pushed, again with the attacker standing nearby. Wouldn't she have run off - perhaps to the nearby pub where she might have got some protection?
Still, I suppose the attacker could have gone away, and then come back and taken her by surprise.
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 128
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 12:48 am: | |
Hi Robert
I heard a while back that were not going to be any more revised A-Z's. Just confirming what you have already heard.
Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 450
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 7:26 am: | |
Monty, Gary, thanks. I'll just get the most recent edition.
Robert |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 8:22 am: | |
Gary--The conversation has moved on, but going back to your post of last Friday. I'm somewhat unsure about Mr. Gordon's claim that Elizabeth Jackson was an "East End prostitute." Maybe; but contemporary reports linked her with the area around Sloane Square.
Personally, I tend to believe that there was no such beast as the "Torso Murderer." These sorts of grisly discoveries were not uncommon in the 19th Century. Jackson, for instance, was almost certainly the victim of a botched abortion. There were similar cases in Pimlico, Southwark, and elsewhere during the same period. All the best, RP |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 129
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 9:34 am: | |
Hello All
Leanne-
You mentioned the fact that Stride only had her throat slashed once becase the killer may have been disturbed. I think that the single throat slash is one of the weaker arguments for the idea that someone other than JTR was the killer. So I agree that this may not prove a whole lot.
However, it has struck me that if Stride was not killed by JTR, the killer would have been content to inflict a single fatal wound and then leave. This is the counter-argument to the fact that the killer was disturbed. Sometimes I find myself questioning whether he was disturbed, but I think the weight of evidence is that whoever he was, he was hiding in the shadows when the main doors were opened. I think the timeline lies in favor/favour of this being the case.
As for the idea that the prostitutes would perform their services standing up rather than lay down on a dirty, possibly wet area of ground. I agree. However, this does not prove when the killer struck. I feel he slashed her standing and then lowered her or let her crumple to the ground.
P.S. "Chief Inspector" You will be commissioner soon while most of us are still pounding the cobblestones and looking for lunatics.
Robert-
You mentioned that it need not be the case that the knife was different. I thought about that as well. The same knife can be used in a number of different ways as far as depth of cut, etc. is concerned. I'm not a big fan of the expertise ememplified by most of the doctors in the JTR case, but I do agree with the A-Z that the evidence for a second shorter bladed, more rounded knife has to be considered. This is not conclusive however, to my mind.
As for Kelly (or whatever her actual name was) not having been strangled, we shall never know because of the degree of the mutilations.
Robert Bob and Jeff.
I have to go with Robert on the idea that the breath mints were evidence that she was not strangled or partially strangled. Her reflex would have been to drop her little bag and bring both hands up to protect her throat if she were being strangled much as the other victims appear to have been.
I took an elective many years ago in school called Medicine and the Law and we were shown a slide presentation that displayed a number of pictures of the death grip or spasm. Seeing graphic photos like that stays with you.
Sometimes the death grip is not present and this gets confusing but I think this tends to happen when the death was not completely instantaneous.
I must confess the death spike is a new one me. I believe that autopsy surgeons like to measure the temperature of the liver to get a reading on the time of death. A rectal temperature would be the best way to get a time of death prior to autopsy but time of death is all so subject to outside factors like the weather and rigor, as Jeff points out, that the range for the time of death is often pretty open ended. At least with Stride we can pin it down pretty closely. But as to a matter of the difference between one or two minutes, it would be pretty hard to say.
Monty-
You mentioned a right handed Jack. We are both ambidextrous and I get confused when trying to decide wether I would stand behind the victim and drag my right hand backhanded across the throut or vice-versa. I suspect that you are right though, because the wound dragged down and to the bottem on what appears to be a left to right slash.
I would put forward the idea that if JTR killed Stride he was not the same man who shoved her to the ground in the street and whom she was seen loitering with outside the yard and possibly drinking with earlier. I have always agreed with the idea that this would be an especially foolhardy way for JTR or any serial killer to behave. Jack was no genious but he would have moved on after being spotted with a possible victim to find easier pickings elsewhere.
This cuts the timeline a little finer than I would like. The man who shoved Stride to the ground, yelled out and was seen loitering with her would have had to have moved on. JTR would then have introduced himself into the situation.
I have never heard that idea discussed but it is possible, though I feel it would have been unlikely.
All The Best
Gary |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
Dear Leanne and Robert; I posted a reply on July 17th , but due to the delay in posting, it has already been archived!
Hopefully you can look back a bit and read it, I would be interested in your opinions.
Joan |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 132
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 1:09 pm: | |
Hi R.J.
Contemporaoary reports would take precedence over modern speculation. Thanks for the information.
I'm sure about one thing; whoever or whatever was responsible for the "Torso Murders" was not JTR as Mr. R. M. Gordon puts forward in his book
"THE THAMES TORSO MURDERS OF VICTORIAN LONDON". Mr. Gordon does however, give us a look at murders that were overlooked and overshadowed by the JTR series.
Of course we may speculate forever on these boards and never agree about how many murders we can lay at Jacks' doorstep.
All The Best
Gary
|
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 133
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 1:58 pm: | |
Hi Joan
I missed your post also because of the archival system. You point out as well that JTR could have entered the picture after Stride's original assailant left the scene.
In the class I mentioned we were taught that the first thing a forensic pathologist looks for to determine if strangulation took place is petechial haemorrhage of the blood vessels in the eyes. This is not mentioned in the autopsy report.
You mention that dark brown spots were found on the left chin on page 511 of THE A-Z, but I believe that could be read to mean that decomposition had begun in the area around the haemorrhage of the throat wound on the left side of the neck from the sererance of the left carotid artery. I could be wrong about the latter point but the lack of mention of petechia in the eyes is a red flag about the issue of strangulation.
All The Best
Gary
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