| Author |
Message |
    
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 136
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 11:50 am: |       |
Mark,
Is that the kind of senario you were thinking of ?
Howlin Mad Monty
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 89
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 6:46 pm: | |
Whatho Monty,
Yes, it's close but I was thinking the apron may have been carried to Goulston Street by our canine suspect. The apron used as a kidney wrapping would explain why the dog would have an interest in it in the first place. Therefore Jack could have dropped it anywhere and the dog took to a quiet corner. Of course the dog may not have wished to carry the parcel too far (although dogs can be quite possessive of their finds) so the thought of Mr Pedigree Y Chum's (sounds like a West Country name to me) of the dog finding his prize at Goulston Street does certainly appeal.
Don't forget some dogs do have some rather nasty habits .
I was sorry to read of your daughter's condition. My mother had the same problem so I know of the importance of those injections. But I expect it doesn't make it anier the easier. Good luck.
Cheers, Mark |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 142
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 12:08 pm: | |
Mark,
How would the kidney have stayed in the apron ? Are you saying that the Killer tied it up ??
Monty
PS Thanks for your wishes. She is fine...still hates the injections but what do you expect from a 5 year old. Shes averaging 6 so touch wood....till the next hypo !!
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 5:57 pm: | |
Whatho Monty,
Just wrapped up really but that depends on the size of the piece. If Jack only wanted to wipe the filth of his hands I cannot see him carrying the apron this far. So I think he was using it for another purpose.
Cheers, Mark |
Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 10:13 am: | |
Do you realise that if the dog eating kidney scenario is correct, the Lusk letter "From Hell", has to be kicked into touch as a hoax.
Not that any seriously thinking individual would deem that correspondance as genuine anyway. |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 12:03 pm: | |
Mark,
But its not that far really. Just a few minutes brisk walk.
Still cant see the dog 'thang' but your getting there......slowly !
Tommy,
Why ?
I would only come to that conclusion if a kidney was found.
Monty
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 94
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 6:13 pm: | |
Whatho Monty,
Have you seen they put the notices about dogs not fouling the pavement about six feet up on top of poles. How are the dogs supposed to read them up there?
Cheers, Mark who still thinks man's best friend has something to do with it |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 355
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 6:21 am: | |
Mark, a short while ago there was some information printed on the bottom of a box of sweets. Amongst other things, it said "Do not read while box is open."
Robert |
Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
Monty if the dog ate the kidney, it couldn't have been posted to Mr Lusk.
As McNaghten said, the answer to the identity of JTR at one time may have lain on the bottom of the Thames. Could the answer to the whereabouts to Eddowes kidney have at one time lay as it steamed, beneath the bottom of a dog.
Perhaps the dog sent the kidney and letter? |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 356
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 6:28 pm: | |
Tommy, I'm not sure a dog can send a packet through the post although, like a postman, he may leave one on your doorstep.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 180
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 7:55 am: | |
What, Robert, in a cardboard box? Where did the dog find the brown paper to wrap it in? The Rovers Return?
Maybe he was the dog I met on a bus once, carrying a similar box which smelled absolutely appalling. I asked him if he was off to the vet, and he replied "No, the optician". When I asked him why, he showed me what was in the box and said "Every time I pass one of these, my eyes water".
Love,
Caz |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 360
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 11:52 am: | |
Caz, the dog you saw must have been a boxer dog...on his way to get some bifaecal lenses.
Robert |
Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:21 pm: | |
I've got it!! JTR was a dog! That explains the horrible, "animal like" mutilations. The dog had long, razor sharp claws that he used to cut the throats of his victims. Now all we have to do is find out what breed of dog has such claws, then track down who in Whitechapel owned such a dog!
I'm brilliant. Sometimes, I amaze even myself. |
Alan Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 5:11 am: | |
Monty
Following on from our chat (including Caz) on another thread this is another example of what we were discussing.
According to Tommy now anyone who doesnt discount the Lusk letter cannot be considered a seriously thinking individual.
I give up
Alan |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 71
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:45 am: | |
Chaining the dogs up for a moment....
Might not someone have discovered the discarded apron-wrapped kidney at another location where it could have been originally dumped? Thinking it something valuable.And when they hid in a doorway to have a good look at their find, had second thoughts about its value and thrown it in the Goulston Street doorway?
The only problem: the graffiti.Has it been firmly established the graffiti is related to the apron?
Now unchain the dogs again, they rush up to the bundle, seize the kidney and run off with it, leaving only the apron. |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 364
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 2:26 pm: | |
Hi John
If someone did find the apron and pick it up, I shouldn't imagine they'd have walked very far with it before examining it under the first street light they came to, where they'd have thrown it down in disgust and where (barring the actions of dogs) it should have been found.
I don't know how far the sound of the watchman's whistle reached or how quickly news of the murder spread. If someone found the apron and was aware that something was going on, I suppose they might have told the police about it, out of public spirit, or a desire for a share of the reward, or to pre-empt the police finding them with bloody hands. On the other hand, they might not have wanted to risk being taken for the murderer, and so kept quiet.
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 151
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:32 am: | |
Tommy,
So without the kidney the Lusk letter is a hoax ?
Monty
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 152
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:33 am: | |
Alan,
You know what ?
Im begining to see your point.
Monty
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 153
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:44 am: | |
John, Robert,
Thats the rub for me regarding the 'picked up/discarded' scenario. You ever walked along Goulston St recently ? Its still a dirty area. Infact I doubt it has changed much since 1888. Its full of all sorts of rubbish, litter, coat hangers, Veg oil drums etc....spotted a easy chair once. All of this crap is ignored.
If the apron was picked up then it wouldnt have been handled for long. In a Jewish talior area I doubt it would have gotten a second glance (unless it was a roll of material). But Long stated it wasnt there when he first visited the doorway.
Would someone, other than the killer, have held onto it for that long?
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 367
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 3:41 pm: | |
Hi Monty
I can't see any member of the public wanting to hold on to that filthy rag for long.
Given the rubbish etc in the street, I suppose there's a possibility that if the kidney and uterus were indeed wrapped in the apron, the killer may have transferred them to another piece of cloth he found in the street, having cleaned his hands and knife on the apron.
Re the graffito, do you think that the bucket and sponge suggest that the writing was more likely old than recent, as recent writing might only have required a duster to remove?
Robert |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 56
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 6:20 am: | |
I've never thought Long could have been right. No imaginable killer would have hung around for 40 minutes in that neighbouhood as it buzzed with incoming cops fanning out in all directions. I think Long overlooked it on his previous round/s - (after all, why should a piece of dirty rag catch his attention in a street covered with the sort of filth Monty describes?) - but didn't want to admit what might have been called a culpable oversight in the event. Bear in mind that he was subsequently sacked for drunkenness - (rather a common fate for 19th century Met officers, as the Commissioners pushed hard to achieve the successful and worthwhile policy goal that a drunken policeman in uniform should be unthinkable).
All the best,
Martin F |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 75
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 6:38 am: | |
One question occurs to me stemming from this discussion.
Just how prepared was Jack for his murderous forays?
We know he had a knife or knives about his person
but if he was that prepared, did he also anticipate carrying away portions of his poor victims anatomy?
The above tends to indicate "No".
After all, he would have not needed the portion of apron, and would not have carried it for so long had he been prepared.
Do posters think the apron was taken merely to remove unsightly material from Jacks hands and person? And perhaps to clean his knife?
Or do they think it was taken to carry off body parts?
Or both?
I know you have all been over this,I just need to re-focus.
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David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 94
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 9:03 am: | |
Hi, Martin
I agree with you that Long very well might have missed the apron, so therefore no missing 40 minutes or hour. Long also forgot to bring his notes to the inquest. The coroner had to excuse him in the middle of testimony to go get them, so Long has never struck me as being terribly observant, either.
Hope you're enjoying good health these days.
All,
If JtR used Eddowes's apron to carry her kidney around, then why don't we see the clothing of the other victims being similarly torn? Are people saying that JtR remembered to bring his knife to Mitre Square, but forgot whatever it was he normally used to carry organs in (but remembered chalk)?
Two things different about the Eddowes murder: the fecal matter and the torn apron. My own opinion is that he used the apron to get his hands clean, and the distance from Mitre Square to Goulston Street indicates how dirty his hands were.
Cheers,
Dave |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 193
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 10:23 am: | |
Hi Dave,
If the ripper's first experience of taking an organ from the scene was with Chapman, he may not have thought through the practicalities or anticipated any problems until he got back to his lodgings with a very soggy pocket. After that, he may have planned to use his next victim's clothing to wrap his trophies, or he may have improvised at the scene, finding Eddowes had a nice big apron he could rip up for the purpose.
If the organs did end up at home with Jack, he transported them somehow and in something, either in something he brought with him for the purpose or in a pocket, or both. Since he took two organs from Eddowes, it's possible that he took the apron piece, after wiping his hands and knife on it, for extra coverage and absorbency just to begin with, discarding it as soon as possible, to leave a smaller drier package for the remaining part of his journey home.
Love,
Caz |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 156
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 11:21 am: | |
Martin,
Thats exactly the scenario that goes around in my head regarding Long. My only problem with it is that Long states that he didnt know about the murder before he found the apron. He assumed that there was a victim inside the dwellings. That was his reason for taking the apron along to the station. Makes some sense to me.
BUT......can you believe that Long, at 2.55am, didnt know about at least one of the murders ??
Makes me wonder if he did and was already planning his excuses.
Monty
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