|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:13 am: |       |
Eddowes was murdered shortly before 1:45. a.m. P.C. Long as far as he could remember didn't spot the piece of apron taken from Eddowes as he passed the entrance in Goulston street at 2:20 a.m. He found the piece of apron at 2:55a.m. Anything between 35 minutes and an hour and 10 minutes could have elapsed between the flight from the Eddowses scene, and the the finding of the piece of apron.
Was Long mistaken? if he wasn't could Jack have looked for another victim in that time? He had killed twice that night and escaped twice, was the adrenalin running? did he think he was invincible? Was the urge to kill too great for him to stop that night? Did the sound of police whistles, and presumably the flooding of police into the area finally bring him to his senses? If this subject has been done to death in previous messages then my apologies. |
Alan Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 11:44 am: | |
Tommy,
There has indeed been many a wander down Goulston Street on previous boards with regard to the apron, the grafitti, Long's account of what happened, what transpired between the discovery at Mitre Sq and the discovery of the discarded apron, etc.
With regard to Long's statement, like so many police officers accounts throughout this case they stretch the imagination. Too often they arrive just too late to catch the perpatrator despite being "dilligent" in their duties. I fear that on cold wet nights in smoggy old London opportunities of shelter and perhaps a nice hot drink with a former P.C. who was now a night watchman (or similar scenario) would have been very tempting indeed. Jack may not have required to be so cunning and fleet of foot as some would imagine.
How could Long swear that when he passed the entry to Wentworth Dwellings the grafitti wasnt there. It was dark, wet, yards from any source of light. The letters were less than an inch high and were inside the entry.
I fear that the polcemans testiomony is more of a hinderance than a help.
Alan Smith |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 200
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 7:40 pm: | |
Hi Monty, everyone
Just arrived from Paley research thread.
Monty, I don't think the warehouse door could have been very much open, because Morris said that the door was pushed, whereupon he opened it wide.
I think you're probably right about Jack having to leave when he heard the door open, if only because the whole murder happened in such a short space of time anyway. Even so, he must have been a very cool customer if he stopped to cut off the piece of apron before leaving, even if it only took him a second or two.
Maybe he'd already cut the apron and wrapped the organs in it, before mutilating the face? But Long only mentions the corner of the apron being wet - the rest seems only to have been smeared.
First prize for understatement must go to Watkins, who used (or was prompted to use) the word "protruding" to describe Eddowes's bowels!
Robert |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 85
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:40 am: | |
Robert,
Cool customer??
If Harvey is to be believed then Jack must have been hiding in that corner during his presence only feet away. Yeah, Id say cool.
Im sure the door wasnt that wide open as well but imagine whats going through Jacks head.
Is someone coming, going to poke there head out or what ? I just feel its his trigger to scarper.
Monty
|
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 212
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 7:40 am: | |
Hi Monty
I do wonder whether Harvey didn't just skip Church Passage that night. But if he didn't skip it, then time was even shorter for Jack. Presumably he'd have hidden as soon as he heard Harvey coming along the Passage, waited for him to reach the top of it, and then waited till Harvey got right to the other end again. If that's what happened, then it's even more likely that it was indeed Morris's door opening that made him go off.
So let's say it was Morris's door opening that did it. I imagine he'd have ducked into Mitre Street, wouldn't he? Can you see him going back through the Square?
Robert |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:22 pm: | |
Robert,
Stewart Evans did a little experiment a few months back with a Bulls-eye lantern just to see how far the beam reached. It wasnt that impressive, very weak. So Harvey may have reached Mitre sq but due to the weakness of his lamp could not see right into that corner....but, that said, PC Neil was able to signal PC Thain from a further distance in Bucks row on the night of Nichols demise...so go figure !
I have a thing about Jacks knowledge of police beats. The only exit that isnt covered by a Policeman is St James passage. Watkins covered Mitre street exit and Harvey (if he was on the ball) covered Church Passage. I dont think he would have risked going back that way. He must have known spot checks were being carried out (although Dew states that this happened only to those who the Police didnt recognise ! ) and wanted to take no risk. This may also explain the time difference in the noticing on the apron (but again is Long on the ball this time ?). He simply ducked and dived.
Its just an idea this, but the fact that Id have to pass an ajar door after what I just did wouldnt bother me at all. I just want out the quickest and safest way possible.
Monty
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 216
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 6:31 pm: | |
Hi Monty
Re your police beat theory (no, not Sting and Co):
if he went back past the ajar door, because he knew Watkins was due any minute, I still don't see why he couldn't have gone up Church Passage. Wouldn't he have known that Harvey must have cleared off by then?
I saw your post on another thread, about Jack dodging the police beats on his way home. I just wonder how predictable specially drafted officers like Long would have been, having to get used to an unfamiliar beat etc. Do you think these officers' movements would have been predictable and regular?
By the way, Monty, what's your opinion on the Kelly Dorset Street police beat? There was no PC at the inquest, to say he'd seen the man who afterwards turned out to be Hutchinson, or even just to say he'd seen nothing suspicious. No mention of any PC walking round the Court and hearing or not hearing singing etc. Were the police really too scared to walk down this road at night?
Robert
|
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 92
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 8:54 am: | |
Robert,
Yep, I agree, an escape via Church passage is plausable. Ive been thinking about the reasons against such a desicion and obviously whatever I put forward arent my firm beliefs. Just random ideas...so dont hold me to them and shoot them down at your own free will...which Im sure you will.
It all depends on how the killer works. Taking an exit via Church passage brings you out to a junction of two very busy thouroughfares (even in the early hours). Do you want to take that risk covered in Kates innards ?
Harveys beat after Church passage takes him south down Dukes st then west along Aldgate as far as Mitre st where he doubles back along Aldgate (crossing Dukes St again) and on to Houndsditch where he continues north. Church passage isnt that far from the Aldgate/Dukes st junction. A possibility of Jack meeting a PC Harvey on his return from Mitre st is, well, just that...possible.
He may have turned North from the passage and there is no real reason to suspect why not. The only reason I can think of is Lewande & Co. Lewande spotted a man and a woman at the Dukes st end of Church passage. Lewande is sure (by the clothing) this is Kate. So then its reasonable to assume that the chap she was with (and whom Lewande describes) is her murderer. Im also quite sure Kates new chap had a good look at Lewande also, noted that he and his cronies where heading north and just wanted to avoid a second sighting. My problem with this is the time difference..would Lewande ect have had enough time to have been long gone after the deed was done ?
These are just suppostions and should be treated as such...but its good fun aint it ?
I think the new PC boys wouldnt have been predicatble but they wouldnt have been totally unpredicatble either, perhaps a little out by way of being in a certain spot at a certain time. Long ??..first night nerves may have accounted for him missing the apron 1st time around. Its all mays and maybes isnt it ?
Stewart Evans stated that some police beats where altered to some degree. I feel that this was in the timing as opposed to routes. Besides the clomp, clomp, clomp of boots would just echo around the buildings of the east end. Even today the noise in Mitre sq of someone in high heels just booms out.
As for Kelly, wasnt Dorset St known as 'do as you please' because the residents could do as they wanted due to there being no police presence there ? Too Dangerous to patrol ?? Its the only thing I can come up with but, considering the situation at the time, Id have though the police would have stepped up there patrols and had more of a presence. Especially after Chapmans murder.
That said, there are areas in my job that Im not allowed to venture (on instuctions from Plod) today. So perhaps the idea that there where some areas where the police just did not go isnt all that odd.
Monty
|
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 221
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 10:02 am: | |
Hi Monty
It's OK, I know you're experimenting, thinking aloud. I like doing that too - go up a road, see where it leads, come back again. I'm careful not to think aloud in Sainsbury's, though - wandering round the aisles muttering "Where are the organs hidden?"
That's very interesting what you say about Jack having a good look at Lawende. I can almost see him making to go, thinking it's a bit risky, and Eddowes putting her hand on his chest to detain him, reluctant to lose a customer. Maybe she sealed her own fate there.
Presumably after the murder he reached a point where fear of being overtaken by police behind was outweighed by fear of bumping into them ahead, so he stopped and cleaned himself up on the apron. I'm puzzled why he threw it down, though, and gave the police their clue. It wasn't as if it was especially incriminating, given that he still had the uterus and kidney on him! The only thing I can think of, is that he was so disgusted by the crap on it that he wanted to get shot of it.
If he was that worried about the crap, who knows, maybe he did end up in Dorset Street washing his hands, particularly if he knew it wasn't patrolled. Maybe he'd even done this on previous occasions.
Robert |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 93
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 11:48 am: | |
Robert,
I know the testing of Bloodhounds came after the murder of Kate but were there any rumours regarding their use pre September 30th ?? Perhaps another reason for discarding the apron? A fear of being tracked.
Im with you. Im sure there was a point where he stopped, cleaned up and composed himself.
It is far better to dump the apron nearer the murder site than his abode...if he had one. Its more incriminating on his persons than in a doorway.
I think thats exactly what happend during the Lewande sighting. A wish to leave, Kate coaxing him back. All made more awkward with eye contact between the two men.
Monty
|
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 381
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:14 pm: | |
G'day,
But would he have been in the mood to pull out a piece of chalk he happened to have in his pocket, and write a message on the wall? If he did this to incriminate the Juwes in the building, wouldn't just the leaving of the apron in the doorway have been enough?
LEANNE |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 64
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 7:32 pm: | |
Yeh, Gooday Also,
Am I wrong in thinking there was a bit of a time lag between when the body was discovered and the PC found the apron at Goulston Street?
My point is, what did Jack do to fill in the time?
If the PC can be believed, he did not see the apron in the foyer on his previous round?
Surely the first thing Jack needed to do after the murders was check his clothing to see he was not covered with blood.(Using an isolated street light.Or a Swan Vesta).
One fact I have noticed is that the Coroner's sketch of Mitre Square shows two points very close to Catherine Eddowes body called "Areas".
Were the "Areas" at Mitre Square closed in, or were they stairways leading down to rooms below street level? In other words, were they somewhere where Jack could have concealed himself momentarily, whilst a reluctant policeman made a half-hearted sweep of the square (hoping not to see anything too awful)?
|
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 239
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 12:02 pm: | |
Hi all
Monty, good point about the bloodhounds - I think they were starting to be discussed at the start of October.
Leanne, I think it's unlikely the killer left the message.
John, I can only see him dropping into an area if Watkins was right on top of him. But wouldn't he have heard Watkins's boots approaching for a little while before it got to that point? I can't help thinking he left the Square when he heard Morris's door open.
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 3:16 pm: | |
Whatho all,
I did mention on the old boards Jack did not necessarily dump the apron where it was found. I suggested he may have thrown the apron else where but it was picked up by a dog, cat or rat and carried some distance until it decided, for whatever reason, to drop its trophy.
This produced some very interesting replies and I feel it a good idea if I suggest this theory again for debate.
Cheers, Mark |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 243
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 3:40 pm: | |
Hi Mark
Interesting idea. I'll send considered reply in due course.
In the meantime : did the dog do the graffito too?
Robert |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 95
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:17 am: | |
John,
Your a PC new to the area.
No murders in a while.
Whilst you may know with the area you may not be 100% ok with it....dodgy area see.
Sure, you check doorways and stairwells. Full of crap as usual....just like nowadays.
Then boom...others PCs, plain clothes and Joe Blows running backwards and forwards, you hear rumours of another body found either in St Georges or Aldgate (its confusing) and you're then told to keep 'em peeled.
You dont want anything to go pear shaped on your beat, no blame pinned on you, so next time around you're extra thorough. You rummage though the crap in stairwells and doorways this time.
Then you find a rag covered in cack and stinking to high heaven....and soaked in blood at one corner.....wasnt there before.....you think !!.....what happens next ??
Areas ? Do you mean the gratings/skylights for the cellars ?? I shall have to get my map out. Ive always found the opening to the yard an interesting place. Was it set back from Harveys view ?
With Robert again...think Morris was the trigger for Jacks escape.
Mark,
Fair comment about the vermin/dogs senario....but why would they want to do that ?
Not food. Nesting ?? Would be too dirty for that wouldnt it ??
Interesting though,
Monty
|
Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:55 am: | |
Could the talk of introducing bloodhouds to the investigation have been the reason why the Ripper stopped killing for six weeks. He must have read about it in the newspapers, or have been told about it by someone?
Could the Ripper have brought chalk with him to leave a message by the side of one of his victims that night, Stride or Eddowes. Was he disturbed both times during his activities, and then later decided to leave the piece of apron where he had chalked on the wall to act as a marker? |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 7:56 pm: | |
Whatho Monty,
Dogs carry the most strange and horrible things around. Why? Heaven knows. It's less likely a cat would carry that apron. They're more fastidious and have a higher brain power than dogs (and some humans I know)
Robert,
It's unlikely a dog wrote the graffiti and they are not tall enough and don't have pockets in which they carry chalk. I suggest a kangaroo; tall enough, have pockets full of chalk, habitually mis-spell Jew. Ah yes, you say, wouldn't someone have noticed a kangaroo. No, of course not. Afterall, didn't Jack stroll the streets of the East End covered in blood without people noticing him?
Cheers, Mark the Logical  |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 249
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 7:18 am: | |
Hi Logical Mark
Loved your kangaroo theory! Have the kangaroo court records been searched? Maybe he had previous convictions for graffiti-writing?
You see, I don't think that tongue-twisting mindbender was his first effort. No, he'd have started by writing "The Juwes." Then a few weeks later on a different wall, he'd have written "The Juwes are not" - and so on, working up to the full-blown Goulston St chalkbath.
Of course, there's no proof of your dog idea, but I can't see anything against it. Its possibility casts additional doubt on the authenticity of the Juwes message, and provides an alternative explanation (other than simple inattention) for why Long missed it first time round, if the dog hadn't yet dropped it there. But I find it a bit coincidental that the dog deposited the apron in a nice dark place - just the sort of spot Jack would have chosen anyway.
It's a pity the dog wasn't a retriever. Jack could have been sitting in some lodging-house kitchen, smugly sipping a cup of tea, when the dog comes in and hands him a bloody piece of apron.
Robert |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 100
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 8:02 am: | |
Mark, Robert,
I honestly cannot see a dog carring the apron off to dump it in a doorway....unless it had something tasty in it...mmmm a kidney for example.
Its a well known fact that Kangaroos are left handed and therefore could not possibly commited these crimes....althought, admittedly, the jumping from behind theory would suit your average marsupial.
Nah, nah, everyone knows that the only creature that could carry off these awful acts and get away undetected is your Elephant...a wild African Bull Elephant. These animals are masters of disguise with a wonderful array of hats, false facial hair and features. With just one flick of their trunks they are a shabby genteel or a blotchy faced character. They are also cunning and can hide in the most tightest of areas...
...no, no gentlemen....its an Elephant we are looking for.
I shall now depart as this thread is getting far too silly,
Nelly Monty
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 251
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 1:01 pm: | |
Silly, Monty??? On the contrary, your elephant theory perfectly explains why Jack stopped killing. He became a piano.
Or should we be looking at the Elephant Man?
Robert |
Warwick Marshall Parminter
Police Constable
Username: Rick
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 7:43 pm: | |
I don't think you can link the two murders that night, there's no real proof they are linked. As for why Kate chose to be in Mitre Square, judging from the state of her bowels, she could have gone there to relieve herself,--- and thats how Jack found her,-- a sitting duck!!!. But there is always a price to be paid for easy pickings, he got plastered with the most evil smelling of human faeces and he left the scene smelling like a skunk,-- or worse. There is a difference between getting plastered with blood and getting plastered with diarrhea, I think it put him off his exploits for quite a while, ( imagine yourself in that pickle) just swilling your hands in cold water is not going to cure the situation at all.
Rick |
Alan Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
Animals in disguise indeed. Reminds me of the line from "Blackadder Goes Forth" when Edmund confronts Bob with the fact that he (Bob) is actually a girl. "You have as much talent for disguise as a giraffe in a pair of sunglasses trying to get into a polar bears only golf club"
Or something like that anyway. |
Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 11:41 am: | |
Was that an English or Jewish piano, for there was a Jewish piano fished out of the river Thames in December 1888 at Wapping Steps i believe.
Read Melody Maker, 12th December 1888.
Headline:
"Right handed Jewish piano discovered at Wapping steps yesterday"( Suicide stongly suspected).
|
Pedigree your chum
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:21 am: | |
Jack could have cut off the apron piece to put kidney in, got as far as Goulston steet and then encountered a copper. Jack then drops apron and kidney to disassociate himself from crime if apprehended by said copper, copper then eye's him suspiciously but decides to walk by him, Jack then turns right into Wentworth sreet and scarpers. A dog or cat meanwhile happens on kidney and carry's it off leaving apron near Entrance in Goulston street. |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
