| Author |
Message |
    
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 234
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | 
|
Hi Leanne
Poll was interviewed by the police, and walked along two lines of soldiers in broad daylight, and nobody noticed anything?
PS Don't feel bad about depriving Pearly Poll of the "y" in her name. After all, you've given her a Y chromosome as compensation!
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 380
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:04 pm: |
|
G'day,
GARY: I just noticed three spelling mistakes in your last post: 'ovr', 'slso', and 'RVEALED'!....SHAME ON YOU!
I'm glad you didn't think my spelling booboo was worth pointing out. I did ask Stephen to fix it, but he must have already left for his holiday.
I've noticed how unflattering some drawings of Liz were too, but look at the mortuary photo of her, (one appears in 'The Ultimate Companion'). She would have been quite attractive/feminine looking.
If it was so common for these women to look mannish, it's no wonder the police didn't ask 'her' to drop her pants! That would have only added to the public's critical feelings of them at the time! It would have been too risky to have been proven wrong!
LEANNE |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Hi Verd Taggert
Please accept my apology. I mentioned you as a 'previous poster' when I called your post pedantic. I should have mentioned you by name, quoted you and then made my comment. A long while ago I had an individual refer to one of my posts indirectly through a post intended for a third party and I was not pleased.
No-one has prompted me to make this post. Upon reflection I feel it is a matter of common courtesy.
Best Regards
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 237
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:27 pm: |
|
Hi Leanne
The only spelling mistake that I regard as at all serious, is that you keep spelling "Ripper" as "Barnett"!
Would you reconsider if I told you Joe was really Josephine?
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:42 pm: |
|
Hi Leanne
I stand before you to make the shameful confession that I type so badly I fear my posts
are especially prone to typological mistakes.
Regarding Liz Stride, I believe her to have been a striking looking woman in her youth with a vestige of that still remaining in the morgue photograph.
Now if you find any spelling mistakes or typos in this post I fear I shall top myself.
Best regards
Gary |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 274
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:51 pm: |
|
Robert,
You are my hero for the week.
B |
Brad McGinnis
Police Constable
Username: Brad
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 9:46 pm: |
|
Hi All,
Regarding mistakes on this thread and the Pearly Poll.....where do I vote?
Brad
|
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 3:06 pm: |
|
Whatho all,
Please be kind to us dislec... dyxles.... dyslexics, I am trying to post without the help of a spellchequer er spelldrughts, no spellchecker.
Yes is dyslexia so difficult to spells?
Cheers, Mark who really is a dyslexic but doesn't mind the jokes |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 244
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 3:52 pm: |
|
Hi Mark
I sympathise with your dyslexia. I had it myself last night, but a glass of Andrews did the trick.
I hear peppermints are supposed to be good for it, too.
Regards
Trebor
|
Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 8:42 am: |
|
People is watching too much Ali G
:-)
|
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 96
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:29 am: |
|
Mark,
The Dyslexic Societys rendition of Old MacDonald..
'Old MacDonald had a farm...F B F B C,
and on that farm he had a GOD..F B F B C
...with a Foow, Foow, here...and a Foow, Foow there..'
You know the rest !!
Monty
PS Robert,
Ripper....Barnett....very good !
|
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 7:39 pm: |
|
You rotton boggers
Cheers, Mark |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 396
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 7:20 pm: |
|
G'day,
If we can't agree that JtR or any other Whitechapel murdrer could have disguised himself as a woman at any stage to avoid detection, then what hope have we got?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 397
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 7:22 pm: |
|
G'day,
This is the first place I'd start looking!!!
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 255
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 7:05 am: |
|
Hi Leanne
Surely it's one thing for a female impersonator to inveigle drunken, hungover or sick prostitutes into a secluded place, at night (though why Jack would need to masquerade as a woman, I don't understand). But it's another thing for a female impersonator to fool soldiers, policemen, court officials and everyone else in broad daylight. If they didn't notice anything, what hope did THEY have?
And even if "she" did manage to deceive these people, wouldn't their guide dogs have spotted something?
Robert |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 278
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 1:35 pm: |
|
Leanne,
We can grasp at straws all day. But we don't have to - there is ample evidence and information that we can use that doesn't rely on improbables.
Of course we can agree that the Ripper COULD have dressed as a woman. But we don't need to agree that it is LIKELY. Because it's not.
B |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 403
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 5:37 pm: |
|
G'day,
ROBERT: Guide dogs?..Guide dogs?.... do you think they were blind?...literally? There were no guide dogs, mate! The suggestion of being able to use bloodhounds came later!
Anyway, do you think that a guide dog could have could have been trained to look up peoples skirts and say: "Oh master, I just found something that's not supposed to be there, Arrrrr!'
BRIAN: Where is this "ample evidence and information"? Where is it written that they even considered this?
LEANNE |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 178
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 5:49 pm: |
|
Certainly Jack could have dressed as a woman. Famed British female impersonator Danny La Rue has done it successfully for years--
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 262
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 6:38 pm: |
|
Chris, you could be onto something here. Doesn't Danny La Rue sing "On Mary Kelly's Doorstep"? -
or something like that.
Very suspicious.
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 6:43 pm: |
|
Yes Chris, but we always realised he was a man.
Cheers, Mark who knows the difference |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 279
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 9:55 pm: |
|
Leanne,
"BRIAN: Where is this "ample evidence and information"? Where is it written that they even considered this?"
I was talking about the case in general. We don't need wild, totally unsupportable theories when we have lots of evidence that we can analyze to make theories that aren't wild and totally unsupportable.
B |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 405
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:25 pm: |
|
G'day,
OK Brian, go ahead, make one!
LEANNE |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 7:21 am: |
|
Leanne,
I'm working on it.
B |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 5:03 pm: |
|
Hi Robert,
On a lightheated note, the song On mother kellys doorstep' contains a line 'He sits along nellie , she sits along Joe her Beau"
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 268
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Hi Richard
Thanks for pointing that out! Things are looking blacker and blacker for Danny La Rue, for I think
there is also the line "Down Providence Row".
It's no good, Richard, I can see we are going to have to call in Chris Scott's census skills on this one too!
Robert |
Sarah
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 10:19 am: |
|
Just wanted to add to this post as I think Leanne is getting too much stick here for a very interesting and possible idea. It's a better idea than many I've heard on here.
Sarah |
patricia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 8:31 pm: |
|
Hi in my research I came across a mary Conelly (similar name to pearly Poll)a down and out. She was murdered in Usk by an army man called Thomas Edwards. He slit her throat and was hanged in 1892ish. He said she reminded him of somebody who had stole money from an Army friend, or something like that. Cant find out any more about it. If somebody could access newspaper archives it could be interesting. |
Trish
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 4:30 am: |
|
Another interesting fact.....Mary Connoly shown as living at Mitre Court.This is shown on 1881 census. |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 9:42 am: |
|
One very good reason for not checking whether Poll was a man, at the time, is that she was clearly a woman (however masculine looking)!!
The East End in 1888 must have been full of men and women trying to conceal their identities; and among the "fallen women" many who lacked the looks to be more than at the bottom of the heap. Martha Tabram was no "beauty" either from her post-mortem photo; but she was still clearly a woman, and made at least some money by selling herself. Why not Pearly Poll?
Finally, I think soldiers and others who consorted with Poll might have had a shock - and we would have heard about it - had "she" raised her skirts and revealed manly attributes. Perhaps Poll's profession is the most telling evidence of all.
Phil |
Ditto
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:26 pm: |
|
Hi All
I have been following this discussion with interest and wonder if this information might be relevant or, at the very least, amusing.
In the 1881 Census I found a "James(Mary)Connolly" aged 41, born Wolverhampton,occupation Foreman Plasterer.
He is living with his wife Agnes aged 34 and five children at 13 Elliotts Gardens.
Some questions to consider:
Why is his name recorded as "Mary"?
Are these the same James and Agnes mentioned in the Islington Gazette Wednesday October 10 1888?
Is this just another one of those strange coincidences?
I leave this information in your very capable hands.
Kind regards Di |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 398
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 11:25 am: |
|
I dont know but I just read in The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion (pg 12) that Pearly Poll said the man who Tabram went with called himself "Skipper". I know he was a soldier or at least dressed like one, but doesn't the nickname "Skipper" have nautical overtones? |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:32 am: |
|
yes Skipper is a position on a ship. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 3:37 pm: |
|
Hi,
I believe Tabram went with a soldier of corporal Rank, although not the highest rank in the British army, he might have been nicknamed skipper, as he considered himself the boss.
Richard. |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 8:25 am: |
|
There used (World war Two period) to be "nicknames" that went with certain Christian/fore names:
"Dusty" Miller
"Chalky" White etc
I don't know whether "Skipper" might have had a link to a particular name.
On the James (Mary) Connolly mentioned, could this be an Irish/catholic thing? I am thinking of the German actor Klaus MARIA Brandauer.
Hope I got the spelling right!!
Phil |
Ditto
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:00 am: |
|
Hi Diana
Are you suggesting "Jack the Skipper"?
It does sound "nautical".
Perhaps it was a nickname or is related to some other occupation.
I'll see if I can find anything about the term "Skipper".
Here is something else worth considering:
The "East London Advertiser" 25th August 1888 states that Pearly Poll was "staying with her cousin,'Mrs Shean'of 4 Fullers-Court, Drury Lane", whilst the police were looking for her.
I wondered if anyone knew of 'Mrs Shean's' whereabouts in 1891,as I have found an interesting possible entry for her/him?? in the 1881 census.
Kind regards Di |
Ditto
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 7:16 pm: |
|
Hi,
Maybe the simplest explanation is that his surname was 'Skipper'!
There are many people wih the surname 'Skipper' listed in the 1881 Census.
Were the two men really soldiers or were they identified as such because they were in uniform?
Could the uniforms have been used in some other occupation?
Regards Di |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1221
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:31 am: |
|
Hi Di
Sure the uniform could have been used in the occupation of Sixties rock star...
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Ditto
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:07 pm: |
|
Hi Chris
Thanks, I get your point, a soldier is a soldier is a soldier.
I wouldn't confuse Jimi Hendrix with a nineteenth century soldier (nice pic by the way)but I wondered whether Pearly Poll might have confused a soldier's uniform with another kind of uniform.
Obviously you think not.
Perhaps you could give your opinion on the James(Mary) Connolly listing in the Census.
Phil,
Yes, perhaps it is an Irish/Catholic thing or (cue Twilight Zone music) perhaps it's something else!
Thanks for your comments and humour
Kind Regards Di
"When I die just keep playing the records" Jimi Hendrix |
Nina Thomas
Inspector
Username: Nina
Post Number: 199
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:43 pm: |
|
Hi Leanne,
I don’t see this as a far fetched idea. I believe that Pearly Poll (Mary Ann Connelly) may have been a male transvestite/cross dresser. The description of her, being missing for two days when she knew she was needed, her emphasis on “He ain’t here” during the line up, and her refusal to speak at the inquest because her chest felt queer. It seems to me that she feared being found out and being charged by the court.
The following article from the Star, dated November 12, 1888, shows that this sort of behavior was unlawful.
IN WOMAN'S CLOTHES.
A man dressed in woman's clothing was arrested on suspicion in Goswell-road on Saturday night. He proved he could have had nothing to do with the murder, and said he put female attire on only "for a lark," but he will be brought before the magistrate charged with having done it for an unlawful purpose.
I recently viewed a documentary on prostitution where a prostitute stated that she rarely had sex with her clients. She stated that their were numerous tricks of the trade (She did not go into detail) that could be used to make the client believe that they had indeed had sex. Why not the same for a male transvestite/cross dresser?
I’m sure women transvestites/cross dresser’s were plentiful also, as a way for a woman to advance her status. The following link is a prime example.
http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/barry.html
Nina  |
Nina Thomas
Inspector
Username: Nina
Post Number: 200
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:51 pm: |
|
I just wanted to make it clear that I do not believe that Pearly Poll was the ripper.
Nina |
Ditto
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:06 am: |
|
Hi Nina
I don't believe Pearly Poll was the Ripper either.
I agree that there was something strange about 'her' though.
I also don't have a problem believing that there were transvestites making a living on the streets, just as there were 'rentboys'.
As I have mentioned before, I would be very interested to know whether the entry in the 1881 census for James(Mary)Connolly was in fact Pearly Poll!
If this is the case where was he/she in 1901?
Regards Di |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 132
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
|
Given the time lag and admittedly,situating time of death is tricky even today,I think the soldiers were customers who finished their business and went on their way. Pearly Poll could have confused a naval uniform for a soldiers uniform but I seriously doubt it. Both women were plying their trade in Whitechapel which meant a fair portion of their custom would have been sailors from both the Royal Navy and the merchant vessels in port. In Tabram's case I would not rule out a sailor who picked her up after her tryst with the unnamed soldier was over. Neil |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 379
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 7:39 am: |
|
I wasn't aware that the Royal Navy used the Port of London/London Docks in 1888 or since. Chatham was the major naval base on the Thames.
That does not, of course mean that there might not have been RN sailors around, but in my view it is unlikely that they would come from RN ships nearby.
In 1888 it would have been even more difficult than now to confuse a soldier and a sailor. Soldiers wore their scarlet tunics as walking out dress, with a peaked cap. Some regiments and the Artillery wore blue, it is true, but the cut of their clothing was completely different from that of the Royal Navy.
Sailors from the Fleet would have worn blue tunics with a fall collar of white relatively open at the neck. Soldiers had a high/stand-up closed collar. The sailor's hat was peakless and round and totally distinctive.
Given the place of the RN in national affections in 1888 (one year after the Golden Jubilee), and the familiarity of their garb in countless pictures and adverts (John Player Senior Service cigarettes for instance) I doubt anyone in the East End would have made the mistake you imply possible.
Edited to add that, even in a dark alley the silhouette of a Victorian soldier and sailor were totally different. A soldier had tight fitting trousers/overalls, while a sailors trousers were widely flared. Soldiers (except pioneers/sappers) could have a moustache but no beard. Sailors could be clean shaven, but if bearded it had to be a "full set"(beard, moustache and sideburns).
Merchant sailors would have worn whatever attire they fancied, I suppose, but peaked caps, polo-neck sweaters and reefer jackets might have been popular among them.
But why should we suppose a sailor picking up Tabram, over soldiers who are attested to have been in her company? I don't question that the soldiers might have been long gone by the time she was killed, but at least she was seen in their company.
I see no evidence, or even the basis of speculation, for a sailor. If a sailor, on your grounds, why not equally a rabbi, a shop-keeper, another denizen of the doss-houses, or a policemen? There were enough of all of those around in the East End that night too.
Phil
(Message edited by Phil on April 28, 2005)
(Message edited by Phil on April 28, 2005) |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 134
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
|
Phil;
I don't know that the Royal Navy was stationed in the London area. My speculation about sailors is just that and not meant to be solid evidence. if you read my post I suggest that and I quote " A fair portion of their custome would have been sailors from both the Royal Navy and merchant vessels inport."
It is as I stated a supposition. You are of course correct when you state there is no basis for it being a sailor and indeed it could well be a denizen of the neighborhood. Also please note that I said and I quote; "I would not rule out a sailor who picked her up afterr her tryst with the soldier." Again we are dealing in theory here and will be as I doubt we will find anything conclusive at this stage that has not already been found. Please also note that I say Poll could have confused the two uniforms but that I seriously doubted that she would (mainly for the reasons you suggest)
There is no reason to suggest that my suppositions are right and given the state of forensic science at the time it is possible that the soldier she trysted with killed her but I believe she met someone else after the rendezvous with the soldier. I base this on the time lag. I mention a sailor mainly because of the proximity of the docks. I concede that there is no proof. It is speculative discussion meant to draw out other views and hopefully come to a fuller understanding of the caser. Kindest regards, Neil |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2030
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 5:46 pm: |
|
Commonly, marines - who were sailors in them days - and other serving troops were stationed in the great parks of London in tented encampments, simply because there was a lack of suitable permanent accommodation for them in the capital during the early and LVP.
The Old Bailey transcripts do reveal a great deal of traffic between the whores of the capital and such tented camps. |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 436
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:01 am: |
|
Your posts says it all, Neil. You are free to speculate, but I see no evidence to support confusion between soldier and RN sailor.
As to merchant sailors, I believe a recent book, discussed on here has once again raised the issue of a sailor from a (German?) ship visiting London being the killer.
I regret that I personally don't place too much faith in such an approach.
Phil
|
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 437
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
|
Your posts says it all, Neil. You are free to speculate, but I see no evidence to support confusion between soldier and RN sailor.
As to merchant sailors, I believe a recent book, discussed on here has once again raised the issue of a sailor from a (German?) ship visiting London being the killer.
I regret that I personally don't place too much faith in such an approach.
Phil
|
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:59 am: |
|
Hello
Catholics often take a female name as either second name or the third "confirmation" name. The name is usually that of a saint, Mary or that of a particularly pious aunt. It was always a source of much amusement when confirmation time came around at school......
Mr Poster |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
|
Phil;
Rereading severeal months after the fact a thought comes to mind. Pearly Poll didn't identify the soldiers when they were paraded. A strong possibility in my mind is that she was drunk enough to not really remember what they looked like. After all, how long would a back alley knee trembler take?
Obviously, you are right about the attire of the enlisted sailor of both the Royal Navy)and the U.S. Navy as well during that time that prompts a question. What was the walking out dress of the Royal Navy officer during the period?
I agree with your remarks on the recognizable nature the Royal Navy uniform would have. And My apologies. My argument was not stated as clearly as it could have been. I'm certainly not trying to besmerch the reputation of the Royal Navy or sailors in general. (I spent too much time in the US Navy riding the haze gray express myself) My argument was that while there is testimony that the pair were with soldiers, the time in between was sufficient to cast serious doubt on a soldier as the murderer. Have a splendid weekend, Kindest regards, Neil
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page