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Mick Brocking
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 9:29 pm: |       |
I have worked out that Mary Ann Nichols was murdered between 3.18 a.m. and the time that Cross found her. I know Cross left for work at 3.20 a.m. but do not know where he lived in order to work out how long it took to get from home to the murder scene. Paul lived in Foster Street and it would have taken him no more than five minutes to walk from home to the crime scene, but do not know what time he left for work. Cross found the deceased and then heard Paul and waited for him to reach him before they both took a look at the body. Cross and Paul left the scene at 3.41 a.m. as Paul said it took four minutes to get from the scene to where they met Constable Mizen, who confirmed they met at 3.45 a.m.
I believe that the killer was disturbed by Cross and made his getaway by going down the side of the Board School just yards from where Mary was attacked, and that was why no one saw him.} |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 69
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 4:48 pm: | |
Hi Mick
Charles Cross lived at 22 Doveton Street, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green. Looking at a map I would have thought it was at least a 10 minute walk, but I haven't tried it so it's only a guess.
All the best
Rob |
Mick Brocking
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 7:27 am: | |
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the input. That would mean that Cross came across the body at approximately three thirty which does not fit. If it took four minutes to get from the scene to where Cross and Paul met Constable Mizen at 3.45 they must have left the scene at 3.41. They were only with the body for a couple of minutes as they were both late for work. Cross having reached the scene first must have arrived there at 3.38 with Paul arriving at 3.39. Constable Neil, whose footstep were heard by Cross then reached the scene at 4.42. I have also determined by deduction that if the Coroner was correct and the assailant was distrubed, based on the injuries, and the testimony of the doctor in the Chapman case, the assialant must have been at the scene for some ten minutes at least. Therefore the murder must have taken place between 3.27 and 3.29.
A further consideration that the Coroner failed to determine, was that if Constable Neil took 12 minutes to complete a rotation of his beat, why was he not in bucks Row at 3.27 having been there at 3.15. If he had been he would have met Nichols and the murder could not have happened. Therefore Constable Neil must be ultimately responsible for Nichol's murder having taken place.} |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 2:33 pm: | |
Hello Mike & Robert,
Re Mary Ann 'Polly' Nichols.
There was talk in my family that 'Polly' Nichols tried sometimes to get a 'doss' for nothing at my Gt Gt Grandparents George and Mary Cushway's lodging house at No 9, Leman Street. This could be correct as 'Polly's' husband William Nichols was the cousin of their son-in-law George Nichols. (My Gt Grandfather). She was seen heading in the direction of Leman Street when turned away from 18, Thrawl Street. Perhaps she did go to the Cushway's first?
Andy. |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 77
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 5:46 pm: | |
Hi Andy, Sue, Mike
If Mary Ann 'Polly' Nichols went too Leman Street it would have been between 1.20 and 2.30 as she was at the junction of Osborn Street and Whitechapel Road at 2.30 and then went in the direction of Mile End.
Mike, Charles Cross may need looking at as he may have been with 'Polly' Nichol's body longer than he told anyone at least maybe ten minutes.
I don't believe Cross heard Constable Neil's footsteps he may have been out of site when Neil turned into Bucks Row from Winthrop Street.
Rob |
Diana
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 8:26 pm: | |
bear in mind that the standard of living was lower then and especially in Whitechapel. A watch was probably a luxury. The times we have been given are probably approximations. |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 9:24 am: | |
Hi Robert,
What I said re Mary Nichols going to Leman Street could explain the time differences of her being seen. And it would fit if she did go to the Cushway's and being turned away.
Andy. |
Mick Brocking
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 4:50 am: | |
Hi Diana and Robert,
Even if the times are approximations in the reports and testimony, and Cross spent more time with the Body, this would not alter the fact that given the injuries, Constable Neil would have come across the killer in action had he made his 3.27 patrol of Bucks Row. I find it amazing that given the fact, and it is fact, that even if Nichols was murdered shortly after Neil left at 3.15 the killer would have been with the body when Neil should have made the next pass of Bucks Row, yet no one picked up on this. It could not be made public due to the ill feeling towards the police at the time following the previously unsolved 4 murders, but an inquest hearing should be independent of any police authority, and the hearing would have been a public hearing so why did the Coroner not question the actions of Neil to determine where he was. I am only just starting on my quest to determine what happened, but this very early development shows some sort of conspiracy between the police authorities and the Coroner, or total ineptness on the part of both of them.
Regards
Mick} |
Mick Brocking
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
Hi Andy,
Given her intoxicated state and the fact she did not leave Emily Holland until two thirty eight a.m., she would have staggered from Osborn Street to Bucks Row which was a fair distance. If she was indeed murdered at three twenty six, it would seem unlikely that she could have stopped anywhere.
Regards
Mick} |
powers2
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 3:42 pm: | |
Hello Everyone
I have just quickly read the case book on Polly.
The thing that struck me was her new black bonnet.
She had no money for her lodgings, but had a new bonnet.
Being poor, destitute and a drunk I would have thought her attire would have come last.
How much would her bonnet have cost?
Hope you dont mind me butting in.
Kind regards
Pat
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Shannon Christopher
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 8:07 pm: | |
Pat, here is a listing of the common expenses of living in 1888 for the greater London area (source: http://65.107.211.206/economics/wages2.html)
Prices are in Pounds (£)/ Shillings (S)/ Pence (d).
Average Weekly Expenditure
Item S/d
Meat 4/0
Bread (10 loaves) 2/3.5
Flour 2/0
Vegetables (18 lbs) 1/0
Other Vegetables 0/4
Butter 1/0
Fruit 1/6
Milk (1 1/2d per day) 0/10.5
Tea (1/2 lb) 1/0
Cocoa (1/2 lb) 0/6
Sugar (4 lbs) /0/10
Soap (1 1/2 lbs) 0/6
Soda, starch, blue 0/.5
Candles 0/1
Parafin (1/2 gallon a fortnight)
[Kerosene] 0/3
Coal (1 cwt) 1/3
Beer (3 pints at 3 1/2d) 0/10.5
Rent 5/6
Boots (for whole family) 1/8
Clothes for the man 1/0
Clothes for wife and children 2/0
School fees 0/4
Provident Club [savings] 1/6.5
Medical attendance
wife & children 0/3
Yearly Expenditure
Item £/S/d
Rent 105/0/0
Rates and taxes
including gas 28/18/10
Coals 12/8/6
Wages 48/2/1
Food: Butcher 46/9/11
Food: Baker 9/8/8
Food: Dairyman 35/4/8
Food: Grocer 38/8/10
Food: Greengrover 10/6/0
Food: Poulterer 10/3/7
Dress: Wife 35/8/4
Dress: Husband 19/17/3
Washing 34/14/9
Doctor & chemist 33/1/0
Traveling & tips 43/7/5
Local traveling 19/17/9
Stamps 7/16/7
Stationery 8/1/3
Pleasures, presents
Smoking 35/18/2
Wine 15/0/8
House repairs 26/12/10
Garden 4/13/9
Balance 50/19/2
Clothing
Item £/S/d
1 overcoat 1/15/0
1 umbrella -/7/6
1 hat -/2/6
1 silk hat -/7/6
1 week-day suit 2/0/0
1 Sunday suit 2/10/0
1 pair socks -/1-/10
1 pair boots -/10/6
repairing boots -/6/0
1 under vest -/2/6
1 flannel shirt -/3/0
1 collar -/-/5
1 pair cuffs -/-/8
cutton, buttons -/0/1
Weekly Prices
Item £/S/d
Rent 0/6/0
Breakfasts 0/1/8
Dinners 0/5/0
Teas 0/1/0
Boot-cleaning 0/0/3
Coal and Wood 0/1/0
Washing 0/0/9
Tobacco, etc. 0/0/6
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steve rowland
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 6:57 am: | |
Hi guys,
Couple of things. Just wondering what How long pc neil's beat rotation took?. (i note that some people quote it as being 12 mins, what is this based on?).
Also why did the Coroner not interview PC Mizen as I would ahve thought that his testimony as to the 2 men approaching him in montague street would ahve been extremely important.
and finally i not that on teh history of mary ann nichols that casebook on p4 says that PC nichols was called to the scene by 2 men etc. But this is not the evidence tendered at the inquest and based upon the independent witness can simply not be correct.
Please helpa dn shed some light on this as im new to this research
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 848
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 6:30 pm: | |
Hi Steve
Mizen did give evidence at the inquest.
Re Neil's beat, "The Times" 3rd Sept '88 commented "The beat is a very short one, and quickly walked over would not occupy more than 12 minutes." (from the Sourcebook).
Robert |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 10:29 am: | |
Looking back to my childhood, I think policemen on the beat often had "callins" where they could get a cup of tea or get warm on a cold night. It might have delayed the strict timing of their circuit, but I don't think it amounts to conspiracy.
Secondly, as in most of history, we should take all timings as approximate unless the chime of a church clock, or some such is adduced. Even more well-to-do people with watches could not have guaranteed that they all agreed.
It was only with the coming of the railways that times across the UK were brought into line - for timetable purposes. Before that the provinces had their own local time,presumably based on sunrise. in Oxford the bell of Tom Tower (Christchurch) was traditionally rung at 9.09pm in recognition of the fact that Oxford is 9 minutes behind London.
Certainly differences in stated times of a few minutes should be discounted, inconvenient as that may be for those who seek to devise exact timelines of events.
Phil |
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