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  | Archive through April 22, 2003 | Marie Finlay | 25 | 1 | 4-22-03 12:59 pm |
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 115
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 1:46 pm: |       |
Hi Marie,
I am glad you agree that Tabram. Nichols, and Chapman look alike, but i still can see a bone structure likeness in Stride and Eddowes.
As for why someone would want to kill Chapman, also Eddowes, as i explained before it is not beyond the realms of impossibility that these two women were previously accosted together , and the killer has some revenge in mind,
When you say, the killer did not know what she looked like, he obviously would not have a photo of her, but if he seeked revenge for what ever reason, he would have had a picture in his mind of the person he was after, and the same with Eddowes .
I realize that my plot seems something out of fiction, but anything is a possibility in this tangled web of events.
Regards Richard. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 1:55 pm: | |
Marie
I am deeply honoured that my poesies provide a source of inspiration to your artictic bent, and yes please do post an example of your work with your profile.
I know it is old hat but just how many of these 'unfortunates' were Catholics?
As regards Richard's notes, I don't think it beyond the realm of possibility that all these women knew each other and the killer. The fact that the majority of them can be tied into Dorset Street seems to indicate some sort of connection. |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 2:24 pm: | |
Hi, Marie:
You write--
"Regarding [Catherine's] arrest, she had supposedly drawn a large crowd by screaming like a fire engine."
These fire engines didn't have sirens. Rather they had bells. But since they were steam fire engines, known in the day as "steamers," there would I believe have been a lot of huffing and puffing, and as I view it, that was the type of noise Kate would have been making to simulate the noise of a fire engine before her arrest, not screaming.
All the best
Chris |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 116
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 5:12 pm: | |
Hi everyone,
AP: cheers!
I could be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that Kelly was Catholic?
Richard: I don't mean to imply that your scenario is by any means impossible. And I'm in agreement with you that Chapman, Tabram, and Nichols really do look alike. I also think it's highly likely they were known to each other.
To my mind, I can't think of any compelling enough reason for a 'mistaken identity' killing. But that's really just my opinion....
Christopher: I wasn't implying that Victorian fire engines had modern-day sirens....
What I meant by 'screaming', was that Catherine was most likely making a very loud noise. Raising her voice. I'll admit that it was a clumsy use of words.
Personally, I imagine she was mainly imitating the bells of the engine, with perhaps a bit of chuffing in between. I imagine it was the loud 'bell' sounds that would have drawn a crowd.
*I don't know why, but I'm chuckling...*
-M.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Sergeant
Username: Robert
Post Number: 48
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 6:46 pm: | |
Hallo everyone
Richard, I suppose it's just possible that if someone was trying to kill Chapman, he might have misheard "Tabram" as "Chapman". After that, he might have believed that he had to silence Mary Ann Connelly (Pearly Poll) but instead got Mary Ann Nichols (Polly Nichols)....I don't know where it goes from there!
AP, I was glad you mentioned the Lusk letter, because there are one or two things about it that bother me.
I'm not a graphologist, but isn't there something very odd about the loops of the "y's"? On beginning the word "you", the loops seem to be clockwise, but on ending a word, the loops seem to go anti-clockwise. Is it common for someone to vary the same loops like this?
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 4:26 am: | |
Hi,
I think our killer was a habitual drinker, and frequented a pub in the spitalfields market on the morning of Chapmans death, there is a report although unconfirmed that Chapman was still serving in a spitalfields market pub around 5am that morning .
If the above is true then the killer would have followed her from the pub when she left.
The point about her serving in a pub is a possibility as Chapman was known to be a shrewd woman who turned her hand to anything to get by.
The possibility arises that she had refused the killer drink on a previous occasion, or mayby had mocked him, mayby in the same public house, it could be that she had not been in there for some time, and when he saw her there , he had found the right victim..
Terribly far fetched mayby?, but if that report was true the Ripper does appear to be fond of his drink, and almost certainly committed his acts when under strong influence.
Richard. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 142
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 1:40 pm: | |
Robert
yes I too find something quite compelling and odd about the Lusk letter.
If you trawl back through the message board you will find that we did discuss the very points you mention in some detail.
I would be interested in your thoughts about that discussion.
|
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:34 pm: | |
Richard, I really like your idea of Chapman's killer being a habitual drinker in the pub where she worked.
I completely agree in that I think Jack was a very heavy drinker. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 147
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 3:46 pm: | |
Marie
I disagree. I don't think Jack would have ever have gone into a pub in his life.
I don't think Jack would have ever touched a drop of alcohol in his life.
Jack would have lacked the social skills and basic humanity to have sought out company.
Jack was a lonely boy from choice and killed company.
He would have fire-bombed a pub if he could.
Jack planted bombs in society.
He was totally anti-social.
He would have abhorred drinking, whoring, friendship, love, nature, family, dogs and cats, birds singing, sunlight and sunny afternoons.
Jack would never, never have had a girlfriend. |
Robert Charles Linford
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robert
Post Number: 51
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 4:36 pm: | |
Hallo all
AP, I've looked again in the archives, had another look in my books, stared, peered and squinted at the letter. I'm nonplussed.
I suppose one angle on the letter would be, Lusk may have complained, in an Irish accent, that the Goulston St graffito should have been preserved, and may have been asking how long people would have to wait (wate) for action. But if your pixel analysis is right, with "Sor" being "Sir" and "prasarved" being something altogether different, then all that seems to be ruled out.
All I can do is say how the letter strikes me, leaving the status of the kidney to one side.
To me, there's terrific variation between different examples of the same letter, e.g. the "y's" "t's" and "e's" seem to change quite a lot. Even between "ate" and "wate" the "t's" are different. But as I said, I don't know how normal this sort of thing is.
Although the writer's an educated man, the handwriting seems truly painful - it's as if he was writing during an attack of the shakes, or with an injured hand. Yet the "C" of "Catch" and the "L" of "Lusk" seem to have been written with real freedom.
I don't know if it's just my eyes, but the writing from "Signed" to "...you can" seems to be at a slight angle to the rest of the letter, as if he stopped to have a think, the words "Mishter Lusk" then continuing more horizontally. I get this impression when I look at the Casebook reproduction, though in the book photogaphs it's
not so apparent.
I don't know whether the ending should be read "Signed BLANK" ('bad luck, I'm not telling you my name') and then, teasingly, "Catch me when..." or whether instead "Catch me when..." is meant itself to be the signature.
I believe, AP, you think that this letter was meant for Lusk and Lusk alone. I suppose there's a bit of support for that in the letter, because he goes out of his way to mention Lusk's name again at the end (I don't think he meant to write "Catch me when you can Mishter Lusk" because "you can" is wriiten just beneath the end of the previous line, as if finishing it, instead of starting a new line. "Mishter Lusk" then seems to have been an afterthought.)
The word "signed" (as opposed to "Yours something" or simply "Catch me...") I find really strange. The writer knew perfectly well how to set out a letter. I've long wondered whether the letter (or at least the ending) wasn't dictated. If the writer heard the words "Signed catch me..." he may have wriiten the whole thing down, omitting the "signed".
I can only assume, from the length of the "y" tail in "bloody", that the writer got very excited at this point.
I tend to think that a hoaxer who bothered to procure a human kidney, would want to write a longer letter than this.
I tend to discount the "Dear Boss" letter, as the murderer had buckets of the "proper red stuff" at Miller's Court, and didn't avail himself of it.
I think that the Lusk letter is more likely to be genuine than a hoax. Sorry, AP, that this letter lasts a long time without saying very much, but as I said, I'm a bit nonplussed!
Robert |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 126
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 4:54 pm: | |
AP, I know you disagree with me. I'm used to you disagreeing with me, I'd be quite at a loss if you didn't. 
I can't fault you for your scenario, it's perfectly plausible. It just doesn't feel right to me.
But as far as drinking in pubs goes....there's all sorts of ways that humans do that. Most do it in a happy way, glad of the company of their friends, and a chance to unwind.
And then there's others- who drink because they have to. Their minds are troubled and excitable. Although their bodies need the alcohol, it does nothing for their spirit but inflame it. That's why all the fights and stabbings happen when the pubs shut.
Although I'll have to check to my statistics, I believe that most of all homicides are commited under the influence of alcohol.
|
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 149
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 5:18 pm: | |
Robert
I'm going to make a more careful and considered reply to your interesting note in the morning - when the spanish brandy has worn a bit - but for now I would say that I do have a Christmas card and several letters from Richard Ramirez - originals - and much of what you and I see in the Lusk letter do come across in his own ramblings.
Till morning me dear fellow. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 150
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 5:24 pm: | |
Marie
you are quite right, what a sad world this would be if we couldn't agree to disagree.
Watch your statistics though.
I fear that they will show you that most homicides are committed under the influence of the good book and not the good fuel.
I do see what you mean though.
Bu Jack was not a fighter or brawler, he did his stuff in the dark and if one small boy had come along and shouted 'oy!' at him he would have fled.
Jack was a coward. |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 129
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 5:49 pm: | |
But Jack was not a fighter or brawler
I'll agree with that much, though.
Will check my statistics tomorrow....
|
Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 9:38 am: | |
In all actuality, the writing in the Lusk letter is uniform and shows a coherent mind. The sentences are in a straight line and the words are evenly spaced. The only problem is that author appears rushed at the end of the letter. This uniform sentence structure is not seen in some of the other letters. Even the handwriting in some of the police memorandums and documents are not this neat and uniform. The slant of the letters are uniform and the spacing between the letters, though close, are uniform. The letter strokes shows that this is the author's natural handwriting and is written with his strong hand. The Sor versus Sir argument is easily answered as the word is clearly Sor. When looking at the letter it can be seen that the author dots each letter i almost directly above the stroke and the i is clearly formed throughout the letter. There is no dot above what would be the i in Sor. The letter o is also formed the same throughout the letter as well as the letter r. In Sor it is clearly an o we are looking at and not an i. The letter shows the author is cold and calculating, but not a perfectionist and has a strong sex drive and is aggressive and has a strong outgoing personality. He is well read, of Irish descent and is trying to disguise his education level.
The killer may drink but is not an alcoholic and when committing the murders he was stone cold sober.
How can it be said that Jack was not a fighter or a brawler? Evidence shows that Annie Chapman and her killer struggled.
Peace,
Scott |
David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 55
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 10:10 am: | |
Hi, Scott
I agree with you that the salutation is Sor, but is that why you believe the writer was of Irish descent? I think it excludes an Irish person, because people are generally unaware of dialect and don't write in it.
Cheers,
Dave |
Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 10:36 am: | |
David,
I have a reason that I am not at liberty to discuss at the moment. I'm still trying to back up the claim with some solid evidence or at least three more dump truck loads of hard to disprove circumstantial evidence.
Peace,
Scott |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 133
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:31 am: | |
Hi Scott,
You wrote: "How can it be said that Jack was not a fighter or a brawler? Evidence shows that Annie Chapman and her killer struggled"
Oh, I didn't mean that had any of the victims struggled, he would have run away.
Actually, I tend to believe that Jack was a physically very strong individual. I think that once he'd approached his victim with the intent to kill, and gotten them alone- they really had no chance at all.
What I was implying by 'not a brawler', was that I don't personally see Jack as one of the blustery fools that invariably starts trouble around pub closing time.
These types of blokes are usually (in my experience): stupid, and 'all mouth'- with nothing to back it up. I just don't see Jack like that at all. |
Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:51 am: | |
Maria,
I just didn't understand what context you meant it in, but now, I understand and agree.
Peace,
Scott |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 136
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:56 am: | |
Cool.
(Still eagerly awaiting your book!) |
tired_cos_of_jack_the_ripper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 10:03 am: | |
 dont u think we are readin 2 much into all of this?! Jack the ripper was a very sick person who wouldnt take note of bone structure of his victims!  u may think im wrong but i feel jack the ripper just murdered people without a cause!  if we're all right or wrong we will never ever find out  any thoughts? e-mail me- blue_gal014@hotmail.com |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 151
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 1:37 pm: | |
Well folks
It looks like I'm out on my usual branch with an axe in my hand and about to make the cut the wrong side.
I suppose we all see what we want to see in a letter... in the Lusk letter at the pixel stage I saw a dot above the 'i' in 'Sir'. I agree with the proven sentiment that speaking with a pronounced accent does not mean one would write in a similar manner. It seems common sense to me that the English language is written the same all over the world - accept of course America - and even an entire gaggle of experts could not tell you whether the writer of a letter came from Liverpool, Birmingham or Belfast.
As I have said before, the Lusk letter is written in the traditional clerk's style of managing a ledger, with a flourish and flounce on capitals and other important areas. This has its origins in the actual 'clerical' style of church writing which 'clerks' inherited.
I feel it parlous - to say the least - to sherlock holmes such a letter.
I have always felt the Lusk letter was genuine, and obviously written by someone of unsound mind.
That is it.
Robert, I'm still reading your note. |
Muara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 2:50 pm: | |
From hell it came or Ohio!
Mishter Wolf,
Sor,
I sen ya a hole kidne I tok frum sum lousey gaolbird I met up wid at a locle watring whole calld TGIFridays. I had a flat tar in the parkin lot an needed sum male hep. I wacked him wen he got lippy tok his inards and prasarved them inna jar uf strawbery jam fer ya as I knows ya lik sweet things. I alsa cut out the varmint I wus datins tonge and fried it like Kentucky Fried stake and ate it was very nise. I may sent you the exacto blad that took it out if I kin cum up wid the oversees maling charges. Ifen ya make eny more craks abut the good old UsA and its spelin I may come to visit ya if you only will wate a whil longer.
signed
Curect me agin if ya dare Mishter Wolf
ps Ifen that no good hilljack had oferd to bye me diner I wernt a ended up lik Thelma an Lueese an abeen on the lamb. I hate men an they al dasarve to die a horibul death.
wuts uh pixel? |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 165
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 6:13 pm: | |
If you'll beg her majesty's most gracious pardon,
you'll find that pixels most oft are found in garden, nearby a pond or similar feature, a common old garden feature, they neither speak or nod but usually clasp a fishing rod.
But they do reward close inspection, for their single reward is to show misconception: for with perceived mirth they never give birth to ideas of vanity or other somesuch insanity.
Anyways, to business.
If I was to Sherlock Holmes your note, I would say that you had your two front teeth missing, suffered from ringing in the ears, had difficulty in reaching the fridge after ten at night, had no regular employment but a good pension, were overweight and lived in a small apartment with a lot of smelly laundry and a cat that didn't have a litter tray.
Am I close? |
Muara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 11:43 am: | |
Mishter AP [an are ya realated ta thet newz cumpny?]
I oney haf one toof mising out of my bakers dozen inna my mouf. I do haf a maginary frend who gits me food an oter thangs I nede frum the Frigidair like my favrite Hostess cupcaks an dingdongs. My warsh dont smell an I hate catz cuz there contrairy an they luk like the devill who talks ta me sumtimes an tels me ta clene upp the wurld.
I red thet book buy the doc who wus Homes abuot pixels an I thunk he wus ofen his rocker an crakers as them wus jus paper cutouts dun by sum littel gurls. An he dun wrot a book so wut does thet tel ya about them larned guys jes like thet Revrund Dodgson hwo had thet thang fer thet Alice chicky. Haf I dun tole ya I hate posies les they are buy thet Haiku guy or Suzanne Summers or Emlie Dickinsun.
Ya aint close as I dunt liv alone as I jus maried Bill Heirens the Lipstik Killur an we are now markiting uh new thang called Staypput Lipstik so look fer it butt thanx fer postin. |
Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 8:18 am: | |
who left the cagedoor open?
;-)
|
ripperologist85
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 1:54 pm: | |
Hey everyone,
Could i ask a serious question regarding the moments after the Eddowes murder. Whats with the letter writtten on the wall. If you dončt remember its The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing. |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 6:10 pm: | |
I think it's highly unlikely the Ripper wrote the enigmatic message after the crime; not enough light to see the wall let alone write anything on it. So, although very interesting and puzzling, it really doesn't matter what was written.
Cheers, Mark |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 9:05 pm: | |
For an understanding of the Goulston Street Graffiti, may I suggest you read "Jack The Ripper, The Final Solution" by Stephen Knight.
Having then read this amazing tale, you may be able to decide if you are "Gullable"
Regards,
John Savage |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 8:59 am: | |
The title of this thread asks whether Eddowes knew the identity of JtR. As a newcomer, looking back, it seems a long time since that topic was touched on!!
My twopenn'worth is this:
There must have been many people in the East End in autumn 1888 with ideas as to who the killer was. Rumour must have been rife. Whether Kate Eddowes REALLY knew anything is anyone's guess.
That said, there are some interesting features that surround her killing - the false name/similarity to MJK's; the mystery of her movements; the fact that she met her killer so easily... that one wonders.
But then coincidence or other explanations would cover them all.
I regard this as a piece of the jigsaw to put on one side. It may have nothing to do with the picture (wrong puzzle) but then, some other piece of evidence may emerge that will make it SO obvious where it fits in.
I reserve my judgement and hold my piece...
Phil |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 374
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 3:01 pm: | |
Phil -- I think I can answer one of your questions. If JTR headed due west (I think it was on the Whitechapel Road) after doing Stride he would have come to the prostitutes church which I will explain in a minute.
If Eddowes had headed due south after getting out of jail, (which the jailer said she did) she would have come also to the prostitute's church.
This was a church in Whitechapel which the prostitutes liked to walk around and around at night. I assume it must have had streets on all four sides. It was known as the prostitutes church and a man who wanted to engage the services of a prostitute could go there, watch the parade and pick. It was located quite near Mitre Square. Jack and Eddowes didnt have to have an appointment or any prior acquaintance at all. It was located quite near Mitre Square. |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 577
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 3:40 pm: | |
Here are my problems with the story: the superintendent of Mile End workhouse sits on the story all through the press coverage of Eddowes's murder, and through all the inquest coverage. Eddowes has a huge funeral procession on the 8th with people lining the streets and cursing the Ripper. Despite all this attention, this remarkable Mile End story doesn't appear until the 13th. You'd think if this really had any significance, the superintendent would've got off his rear and said something earlier.
Besides, Eddowes isn't even around for most of the Autumn of Terror. We don't know the exact dates for her movements at the beginning of September, but it's likely that the only murders she was around for were the Tabram and Nichols murders. Maybe Chapman coincided with her leaving for Kent. But for the most part, Kate is only around for three days of the Autumn, Sept. 27, 28, & 29. The 27th is spent travelling, sleeping, and working at Shoe Lane. For most of the Autumn of Terror, Eddowes is either dead or in Kent, pulling hops with John Kelly.
Do we suppose the Ripper went a-hopping as well? If so, John Kelly, who would have been working and sleeping with Eddowes, seems totally oblivious to Kate's suspicions. Kelly seems all too willing to fudge some of Kate's activities, but I'd think he'd have been hollering all about this if it had really happened.
Here are my two cents--at best, Kate's supposed remark is an off the cuff remark and an example of her sense of humor. At worst, it's a fabrication of either the superintendent or a reporter.
Mary Ann Kelly--Eddowes's common law husband was named Kelly. Eddowes had an aunt named Mary Ann (the mother of Christopher Robinson). According to Mark King (I believe), John Kelly had had a wife named Mary Ann. No mysterious link to Mary Kelly is needed to explain the alias.
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Hi David,
thanks for that . I didnt know that kelly stuff, it's like you say.
Like you say wonder why the sup. spoke up when he did!
Jenni
|
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 375
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 3:58 pm: | |
Could Kate have known who it was because JTR went hopping in Kent? Is that really so far fetched? Didnt a lot of people do this? |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 578
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 4:12 pm: | |
Hi Diana,
I don't think it is far-fetched at all that the Ripper may have gone hopping after the Chapman murder. Thousands of people did. I'm learning that there were many farms in the Hunton area alone, and that one of the largest, Beltring Farm (now a tourist attraction called the Hop Farm Country Park), employed something like 2000 Londoners during harvest-time (that's not an 1888-specific figure though).
My problem is that it's reasonable to suppose that John Kelly would have known what Kate knew, and he doesn't have anything to say about it.
By the way, Stephen Ryder has located some hopping-related Morning Advertiser articles in which it appears that the 1888 crop was a bad one due to inclement weather, mould, and vermin. Perhaps that's why John Kelly said they didn't get along too well in Hunton. Because the crop seems to have been smaller than usual, and hoppers were paid for what they picked, this could be a reason why they were so broke after having worked the whole month.
Dave
PS Thanks Jen--that information about Kate's aunt is in Neal Shelden's (Stubbings) Catherine Eddowes booklet. It's thanks to Neal that we know what we do know about Kate.
(Message edited by oberlin on December 03, 2004)
(Message edited by oberlin on December 03, 2004) |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 326
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 8:26 pm: | |
Diana,
Interesting idea, but didn't Eddowes and Kelly come back early from hopping? That would have meant that Jack as well came back early, which seems a coincidence, though I suppose it could be argued he was on her trail because she was on to him.
As it is, I have nothing but my own opinion, but frankly I can't see Jack going hop picking. To me, at least, our Jack doesn't seem the sort to go in for that kind of toil.
As far as Kate's supposed statement, I've always felt that perhaps the most popular phrases in Whitechapel that fall were: "Cor, I don't wanna meet 'im in an alley" and "Ooo, I fink I know who 'e is." The first is only a statement of common sense, while the second probably encompassed every mooching in-law, every loud-mouthed neighbor, every poor fellow with a cast in his eye and everyone else who had incurred someone's wrath. So, Eddowes may well have said it, but I'm guessing she was hardly alone and if she actually had someone in mind it was only the result of some personal grievance.
All of which, of course, doesn't mean she couldn't have been right anyway. I just doubt she was and that her meeting with Jack was the sort of fell coincidence you described.
Don. |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 679
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 8:52 pm: | |
David
Here's one from the Meath Herald, September 15th 1888
The cold, wet weather which has steadily followed the progress of this miserable summer has been disastrous for the poor Londoners who are accustomed to spend a portion of the month of September in the Kentish hop-fields. The pale, sickly, ill-fed, ricketty men, women, and children from the East-end look forward to the renovating change. But they dare not risk the exposure to such weather as is now ruining the hop harvest. Roughing it in the barns and outhouses where they sleep, herding together often under conditions which do not bear looking into, and eating their meals in the open, under hedges, or the festooned hop vines, are all very nice in warm, dry weather; but dangerous otherwise to city-bred people. This year, unfortunately, the unfavourable state of the crops have reduced the number of pickers wanted, and the special midnight trains provided for the London hop-pickers have, in consequence, shown a marked falling-off, as compared with former years, of not less than forty percent.
Regarding St Botolph's, the prostitutes church, the law then, as today, did not prohibit prostitution as such, but it prohibited soliciting. The police interpreted this as looking for business at a particular spot, ie standing still. That was the reason the prostitutes circled the church, because as long as they kept moving the police would not arrest them, but the customers still knew where to find them.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise." |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 580
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 9:44 pm: | |
Thanks for that Alan. I've got a keen interest in hopping culture as I think it's an under-reported area. That article of yours echoes some of the Morning Advertiser articles I've seen. I know someone is transcribing for the Press Project so I won't duplicate much here. According to the 14 Sept. Morning Advertiser, acreage was dwindling and 1888 was the lowest in 20 years per the Agricultural Department of the Privy Council: 1886, 70,127 hop acreage; 1887, 63,706; 1888, 58,494. Another report talks about 400 acres in Mid-Kent being lost in a matter of days due to mold and vermin. As a result, they were predicting that hop prices were going to go up. Yet another report mentions that only a fraction of the 15,000 workers who showed up were allowed to work. Finally by 17 September, the M.A. was calling the 1888 crop a "disaster" and "dismal failure".
Yet-for all the talk of cold weather and gales, it can't have been like that all the time for Eddowes and Kelly, since press reports mention that both had tans. In fact, in the days before Eddowes's body was identified, one of the few things that the authorities knew straight away was that she'd been hopping, because of her tan.
Stephen has done a great job picking out these little nuggets for us. Thanks Stephen!
Cheers,
Dave |
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