|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3010
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 6:24 am: | 
|
Hi Monty,
something you just said caught my eye. I just kinda assume police beats covered everywhere. so i guess thats bad assuming?!!
Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
|
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 480
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 9:26 am: |
|
Of course they knew about police beats--they had to avoid the police. That's why it makes sense that the women took the killer to the murder spots. It was part of their jobs to know out of the way places where the coppers wouldn't catch them. And remember they didn't have to occupy those places for a very long time to conduct business.
Think about it from Eddowes point of view. There had been 2 murders that she knew of. There were thousands of women in the area who were at least part time hookers and she needed money.
We look at all of this in the rear view mirror, we already know who was killed . She,in the moment, only knew what went on in her immediate life.She had no reason to think that she'd be singled out by Jack.
Even today, and I'm specifically thinking here of the Arthur Shawcross killlings in Rochester NY, when the police know there's a serial killer going after prostitutes and warn the women abolut him, they still have to make a living. They don't stop their trade, they don't refuse to get into cars with strangers. They play the odds.
BTW, Shawcross wasn't a stranger, he was an occasional punter known to many of the women in the area and figured to be an OK guy by them.
Mags
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2242
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
|
Hi Maria,
I tend to agree with you. And I'm starting to think that Jack could have been a familiar face among the street walkers - a man who was considered harmless. "Oh, here comes old what's-'is-name again, 'e wouldn't 'arm a fly, that one".
Maybe Stride glimpsed a very different side to him and paid dearly for it.
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on October 27, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 500
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 11:15 am: |
|
Hi Maria,
Another reason they thought Shawcross was Ok, that is, the prostitutes who paid attention, was because he didn't match the description the profilers put out. They said the killer would be a much younger man which is what the prostitutes who weren't paying attention probably expected as well.
Stan |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1954
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
|
Jenni,
House to house in Aldgate?
Now why would the Police be doing that?
Shades of Hanbury street.
See, they were being pro-active.
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
|
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 182
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
|
Donald Soudan,
With respect to the fire engine, I am only going by what I have read in more than one book. I have no way of knowing whether or not it has been proven though, I assumed it had, but nothing is written in stone so to speak.
As for Steve Swift's suggestions as to how she may have gotten pissed, yes there is indeed room for these suggestions being correct, however I do not accept a friend giving her money for drinks or buying them for her.
These women were very desperate and certainly couldn't afford to cover their friends habits, or at least not to the point of her getting totally drunk. One drink, maybe two but enought to make one totally wiped, I don't think so.
If Kate was in the position to scrounge money from her friends, why not take this money and go back to the doss house, and spend the night with her man, Kelly?
There is still so much we do not know about this case, the players and the star,which puts us in a position to surmise rather than state.
best regards
Julie
|
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 191
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
|
Caz,
"And I'm starting to think that Jack could have been a familiar face among the street walkers - a man who was considered harmless. "Oh, here comes old what's-'is-name again, 'e wouldn't 'arm a fly, that one".
That's my thinking too. That's why I'm asking tedious questions.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3011
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
|
House to house ? I didn't realise that was the case.
Interesting
Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2733
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
|
The fact that every single victim appeared to have moved away from her pimp - call him partner, boyfriend or landlord if that makes you feel happier - does seem to be very relevant to the circumstances of the crimes.
To be alone was to be without your pimp and protector. |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 50
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
|
Julie however I do not accept a friend giving her money for drinks or buying them for her.
I think you will find that is exactly what happened in Annie Chapmans case,Amelia Palmer gave her 2d for a cup of tea cautioning her not to spend it on drink.
AP - I agree,apart from Eddowes who still had John Kelly as a partner, and I doubt you'd go hop picking with your pimp, but Barnett & Kidney certainly fit the bill.
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
|
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
|
Hi, Mike
"would you say at the time of morning that the victim was killed, Mitre Square would have been
as secluded as any other place with regards to passersby"
Almost certainly - the square was only really accessible by relatively narrow passages away from the main roads, and few (apart from the few people that lived on the Mitre St side and Clapp the night porter) would have had much business being there at that time of night.
Mitre Square isn't even much good as a shortcut, as most of the nearby residential areas would have been more easily accessible via the (presumably better-lit) Aldgate High, King and Duke Streets.
Lawende and his friends were walking along Duke St, taking them well past the Square itself. The only other (possibly spurious) witness was a Mr Blenkinsop who, as a night-watchman keeping guard on some roadworks in an adjoining street, reported having seen "a few people pass" through St James' Place (although I seem to recall his newspaper statement doesn't mention them going into Mitre Square itself).
All in all, it sounded pretty much deserted to me.
Cheers.
|
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
|
Hi Steve Tavani
Both the Hanbury and the Berner sites where somewhat secluded"
I was actually at Hanbury St on 30th September (2005 that is!) and, believe me, it is far from being even "somewhat" secluded. It was - and is - slap bang in the middle of some very busy thoroughfares, surrounded on all sides by a warren of cobbled streets. In 1888 those streets were full of dwellings and home to literally thousands of people crammed together in one of the most populous slums of the East End. Mitre Square must have seemed like the surface of the Moon in comparison!
|
AAD
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
|
There's always another possibility, especially if you are from Diary world. |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
|
Monty,
I mentioned George Clapp, but got him confused with Morris the caretaker. Sorry, should have looked it up before I posted, but the gist is the same. One solitary pipe smoking old duffer does not a crowded Mitre Square make.
... secluded after all ;o)
|
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 192
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 8:22 pm: |
|
Gareth,
so Mitre Square=More time, but maybe not enough for old Jacky. Maybe a pipe smoker did scare him off? I'm starting to like this one victim thing more and more.
Thanks
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
|
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1957
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 4:26 am: |
|
Gareth,
One solitary pipe smoking old duffer does not a crowded Mitre Square make.
One solitary Ex PC who liased with the local beat Bobby and was out every night between 1.00am and 2.00am apart from Sunday, which so happens to be the exact day and time window that Eddowes was murdered.
If Jack hit on any other day, Morris would have seen it or prevented it.
Monty
It begins.....
|
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 200
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:19 am: |
|
While we do not know the full intentions of the killer,how far he intended to mutilate each victim,it is possible that he was interupted on more than one occassion,before attaining his desired goal.
From an almost immediate interruption,in the case of Stride,to perhaps non interruption in the case of Kelly,he acted as the situation allowed.Maybe none of the sites fitted a planned or desired place of total security and seclusion,but the decision to kill there was his choice,and he at least must have thought there was a good chance of success. |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3015
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:34 am: |
|
Monty,
just thinking about what you say about Morris would have seen, makes me wonder if the square was really a place that prostitutes frequented, since Morris would have seen.
But as for what you are saying about coincidence it would seem to be a remarkably lucky one if it is so. it makes one wonder about jack and Stride, and Nichols, or maybe its just my cynical mind was already wondering.
Anyway
Cheers
Jenni
(Message edited by jdpegg on October 28, 2005)
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
|
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1959
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:54 am: |
|
Jenn
Im sure the girls would have known about Morris’s smoking times and worked around him.
The fact is that part of Morris’s duties as a Nightwatchman was to keep an eye on the square and liase with the local beat PC, in this case Watkins. Both Watkins and Morris acknowledge this working relationship and we have the reported packing case incident, which also backs this union.
On Watkins part, his duty was to get to know Nightwatchmen, Pub landlords, shop keepers, etc and use them as a sort of modern neighbourhood watch.
Just because the beat PC wasn’t around does not mean the square was unwatched at all between the beat rounds.
Cheers,
Monty
It begins.....
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3021
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 7:33 am: |
|
Cheers for that Monty,
you have given me something to think about here other than social research lol!
Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2736
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
|
We now know that there was a quicksilver factory in Mitre Square which was the subject of much interest from prostitutes and their clients, as this mercury was considered a cure for the pox, and cases have been highlighted of much chicanery involved with this establishment late at night.
There were actually three tea warehouses in the square and I would imagine that each had its own watchman.
The City of London cop who lived in the square ran a lodging house as we have traced one of the Fenians involved in the London bombings of the time as living with him there.
Mitre Square was also the political hub of the local ward mote, where late night meetings were not at all unusual, and as RCL has pointed out there was a manned fire station just across the square.
Busy place I reckon, even late at night. |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 505
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
|
Yes, AP, 'an hour of Venus-a lifetime of Mercury.' In that case, the cure may have been worse than the disease. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2738
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
|
I like that Stan.
The cure was certainly worse than the disease, imagine drinking mercury?
An hour of drinking brandy - a lifetime of Jack the Ripper.
Give me the quicksilver. |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 507
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
|
Hi AP,
I don't believe drinking mercury was the usual practice. From what I've seen, at least for Syphilis, they either swallowed capsules of mercury salts or inhaled mercury vapor in a sort of tent.
Stan |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2739
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
|
Quite right, Stan, but most widely available as a solution that was taken with water.
Prescribed to a certain person that I know very well indeed. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4198
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:50 pm: |
|
Stan,
As far as mercury as a 'treatment' for syphilis goes, the three most common methods were:
1) drinking a solution of water and mercury (sometimes mixed with syrup for the taste);
2) inhaling mercury fumes (as you say, probably in some sort of tent, or over a bowl with a towel over the head);
3) a salve containing mercury rubbed and massaged into the skin.
Needless to say, the long term side effects were not pleasant.
Furthermore, in addition to these mercury methods, laxative was also used.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 29, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
|
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 509
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 2:20 pm: |
|
Hi AP and Glenn,
I would assume that the solution would have been of some mercury salt since elemental mercury is insoluble. If the disease didn't kill you the treatment surely would in time, that is, unless it worked and you could quit. I believe there was some evidence that it did work in some fashion. Hard to say if it would have been worth it though.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4200
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
True, I am no chemist but yes, I would think that the solution would have been made out of some mercury salt.
Apparently some evidence did suggest that the so called cure did work in some cases against the veneral disease, but to a very high cost of other physical problems. I am myself suffering from mercury poisoning from the teeth, so I know what I am talking about - it effects your whole body and your nerve system as well.
Also, remember that between stage two and three (the latter being the lethal one, sometimes displaying itself with insanity) of syphilis there could be a span of ten to fifteen years of inactivity of the disease, which sometimes wrongly were taken as 'evidence' of that the patient was cured, when in fact the disease only might have been in hybernation.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2742
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
|
Here some info about the treatment of the pox with mercury:
‘THE TREATMENT OF SYPHILIS IN 1915.
By J. E. R. McDONOUGH FRCS.
Surgeon to Outpatients, London Lock Hospitals.
Rubbing in a mercurial ointment will hasten the disappearance of any syphilitic skin lesion..
General Treatment.--Three drugs only need be considered, mercury, iodine and arsenic.
1. Mercury.--The best method of prescribing mercury is in the form of inunctions, but these are useless, except in congenital syphilis, unless carried out by a trained rubber. Mercurial inunctions are messy, and cause the patient some inconvenience, owing to the time they take up. More convenient are mercurial injections. The insoluble preparations are more efficacious than the soluble. The strongest compound is the subchloride, but unfortunately its use is so frequently accompanied by pain and occasional abscess formation that some preparation of metallic mercury is better. The best painless Grey Oil is the following (Captain Adam's formula)--
Hydrarg. 20 parts
Anhydrous Lanoline 30 parts
Chlorbutol 2 parts aa by Weight
Liq. Paraffin to 100 by measure, 5 minims = 1 gr. Hg.
Sig. Inject. 5-10 minims weekly. Injections can be made either into the buttocks or scapular muscles.
The insoluble preparations, of which Asurol is the best, are now seldom called for owing to the rapid action of salvarsan, but if this is contra-indicated and the symptoms are such that the patient should be got under the influence of mercury as soon as possible, daily injections of 1 cc. 5 per cent. Asurol sol. (= 0. 02 gm. Hg.) or Enesol (salicylarsenate of mercury) should be given. Injections every other day of 0.025 - 0.10 gm. of Antiluetin, an antimony salt, can be prescribed as an alternative if required.
When a patient cannot get regular medical attendance, mercury should be taken internally in some form; if this method causes depression or sets up gastro-enteritis or diarrhoea, a suppository of 1 gr. of mercury salicylate in Oleum Theobromi 1/2 gr. inserted every night just before going to bed will often meet the difficulty.
For use in the tropics suppositories will require to be made up with an extra amount of wax.’
My advice, don’t live in the tropics.
But as we see, it was actually rubbed into the skin, imbibed and when required shoved where it might do some serious harm. |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 511
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 9:39 pm: |
|
WOW! If the mercury is scarce, give to old boy some antimony. What was next, arsenic and thallium? |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 845
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 9:39 pm: |
|
Mercury causes neural damage and can lead to mental abberation. That's suggestive! |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 512
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 9:44 pm: |
|
Sounds like a working at cross purposes.
Stan |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 184
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 9:59 pm: |
|
Steve Swift
I do accept the possibility that the "casual" prostitutes did not look any different than any other female in Whitechapel, assuming that they were not "pros" You could probably be correct, I do not know for sure, however, your example of Amelia Parker offering Annie Chapman money for tea is a far cry from money for booze.
regards
Julie
|
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 7:38 am: |
|
All,
A glance at the splendid map sketched for the inquest (http://www.casebook.org/images/eddowes_diagram1.jpg) shows that Eddowes was murdered at a corner of the square furthest away from any source of illumination, assuming that Mrs Taylor wasn't holding an all-night rave in her back parlour. The nightwatchman was stationed at a point in the square diametrically opposite where the murder was committed. Morris would have had difficulty seeing anything distinctive in the southern corner of the square, 30-40 metres away from him and poorly lit, even if he hadn't neglected his watch for the sake of tobacco at the time.
|
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1962
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 4:17 am: |
|
Gareth,
When he smoked, Morris was ther for over an hour. Therefore he would have seen Eddowes enter the square around 1.30am and Jack depart at around 1.40/44am.
He may not be able to see a murder but he would have seen the main participants.
And just for jolly, heres Jane Corams excellent views of Mitre Square from differing viewpoints.
View from the corner towards Church Passage
View from the end of Church Passage back towards the corner where Eddowes body was found
The view from the corner towards St James Passage and the warehouse door (in extreme darkness) behind which Morris was working.
Monty
It begins.....
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3054
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
|
Hey Monty,
and he would definately have been able to see into the square?
Interesting
Jenni
"Don't you know it's true what they say, Things happened for a reason,"
|
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1968
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
|
Jenn,
All entrances and exits, yes. That corner? maybe not.
Acoustics should also be considered though. We know Morris wasnt deaf.
Gareth is correct in stating that the square is a quiet place. However it wasnt, and still isnt as you know, totally free of movement. And my citing of Morris's action shows this.
That said, its obvious that for Saturday nights/early sunday mornings the only constant disturbance of the square is the Beat PC. So the selcusion was there for a window of time between patrols.
I just find it extremely lucky and intriguing that this murder happend where and when it did.
Monty
It begins.....
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3056
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 12:07 pm: |
|
Yo!
so hang on a second, I'm easy to confuse here. At what time did you say Morris had his fag?
umm, badly phrased for our american friends but hey
yo!
"Don't you know it's true what they say, Things happened for a reason,"
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3057
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
|
yo Monty,
i guess even total bastards get lucky sometimes, however,
I have to say thats probably >more than lucky.
or not.
But if it is lucky all things considered its remarkably lucky isn't it?
What he picked a day, the only day that Morris didn't have a smoke.
He picked a time none of the beat pcs were in the square.
so who else had a pattern, this is getting interesting
yo!
Jenni
"Don't you know it's true what they say, Things happened for a reason,"
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3058
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
|
ps i still think my reconstruction idea was a good one, lol!
"Don't you know it's true what they say, Things happened for a reason,"
|
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 795
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
|
Monty & Jenni,
Really lucky all round because I still think the greatest piece of luck that came his way was that PC Long was new to the beat that night and that he was (my suspicion only) either incompetent or at least indifferent to his duties. Of course, look at most crimes, especially those that go unsolved, and there is always an element of luck that haunts the event.
Don.
PS: I almost forgot -- YO!
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3074
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
|
yo Monty and Don,
what about other things though?
Monty,
I'm pretty sure its you i've 'heard' you say someewhere, something to do with the pcs walking the beat left handed (or some such phrase). now i assume that was random and they didnt always walk it left handed on x day (that being the point of so doing it). Ergo (is this the right word), would that effect when eg Watkins was in the Sq?
Now is that right and if so is that luck?
Yo Don,
he was new, it was hardly fun. Now that couldnt have been accounted for - or could it?
Jenni
"Don't you know it's true what they say,That life it ain't easy"
|
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 798
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
|
Monty,
Jenni brings up a question I've wondered about: Did they always walk their beats in the same direction (i.e. clockwise or counter-clockwise)?
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3076
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
|
Yo Don,
thats not what i'm asking as im pretty sure Monty has already told me they didnt. Im checking!
Jenni
"Don't you know it's true what they say,That life it ain't easy"
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3077
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Yo Monty,
hang on,
are you saying even if he was lucky he still managed to kill her in the only part of the sq Morris may not have been able to see?
Jenni
"Don't you know it's true what they say,That life it ain't easy"
|
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 735
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
|
Hi,
Is it really luck though? What I mean is, if Morris was out having a smoke when Jack and Eddowes entered the square, then I think it's safe to assume Jack would not have committed the murder. But, if Jack is anything like other serial killer's, he was probably looking for victims all the time and would often have to "wait until later" for reasons like these.
With Morris absent, then the only "luck" is that Morris did not come out during the next 5 or so minutes (the estimated time Jack was in the square with Eddowes). And that's not a huge amount of time, though it's long enough that some luck was required.
- Jeff |
georgina
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 6:53 am: |
|
Hi, Is there any connection between Maybrick and Petrenco that would suggest these men were in league with each other in the time of the murders? |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
|
Monty,
Thanks for reminding us of Jane Coram's lovely images, however there does seem to be a little romantic moonlight helping the feeble gas-lamps, when we know it was a cloudy, rainy night.
Superb as these images are, we don't have an illustration from Morris' POV looking towards the darkest corner of the square, where there were no lamps at all and where the murder took place.
Furthermore, Jane's view from Church Passage towards the murder site is possibly too well-lit, as the lamp we see in the background was actually round the corner from Eddowes' body, in Mitre Street.
Even if the radius of the light-cone from that lamp weren't feeble enough to fizzle out before it penetrated the square, it would in any case have been intercepted by the corner of the building opposite (next door to Mrs Taylor's), casting a sharp, dark shadow into the very corner where Kate's body was found.
It should be possible to attempt a reconstruction, say in a car park (or even a street) that has one or two lamps, looking at two stooges kneeling/crouching down 40 yards away from you, behind (NB) the main sources of light. I bet it'd be difficult to see anything distinct even with modern lighting under such circumstances, especially if your eyes aren't yet dark-adapted after coming out of your simulated nightwatchman's hut.
If anyone tries this, I hope you don't get a twitchy neighbour calling the police to investigate. It's too late to use Hallowe'en as an excuse and "we're reconstructing a Jack the Ripper murder" is hardly going to endear you to the local plod either ;o)
|
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 585
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |
|
"I've pointed out the general progression from least secluded to most secluded on another thread, a trend that would be counter to usual in a serial killer. They usually become more careless as they carry on, indeed, that's why a lot of them are caught. I can see where there might be some relation to the mutilation in that regard. "
I have always thought that Mary Kelly's room was one heck of a dangerous location for Jack to work. A quick rip is one thing, but to do what he did.... Not secluded, easy to hear a scream, hardly a secure door, and who knows what sort of roommates/pimps/lovers might be barging in at any moment.
As dangerous in it's own way as an alleyway.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1970
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 8:20 am: |
|
Jenni, Don, Jeff and Gareth,
Jenni and Don,
I must admit that my research is taken from the Met police rather than the City. However, I see no reason why procedures and regulations should alter differently between the two forces. Without going into too much detail, here are a few pieces of information that may help.
Each beat is given a number. These are numbered in a register. This register can be referred to at any time. A beat PC is allocated a beat once he arrives for beat duty. Just to avoid possible corruption, the beat PCs will be shifted from one beat to another after a period of time. The period of time being the at beat Sergeants disgression.
The register shows each street, road, square, etc on each particular beat and the time taken to patrol it. Apparently the rate was 2 and half miles per hour.
A beat Sergeant is in charge of a section of beats and the PCs patrolling it. To make sure the beat PCs are conducting themselves correctly and are on time he also patrols the beats on his section.
Most beats are patrolled in a loop. Start at Street X and return to street X. A left handed beat means that the beat PC takes more left handed turns than right. The same obviously goes for a right-handed beat. Now to confuse criminals and possibly prostitutes the beat Sergeant, when giving out the beats, will give the order to reverse the beat. This seems to be the case with Watkins on the night of Eddowes murder. He clearly stated he was patrolling left handed that night and made a point of telling the Star reporter this. As he was supposed to be on duty at 9.45pm and be up and running with his beat at 10pm, anyone who was ‘studying’ his beat had to be checking this out from 9.45pm. So anyone who feels Jack studied timings must realise that he would have studied them on the night of his attacks, if he took such precautions.
Watkins also stated in the Star that he sometimes exits the square via Church passage. I feel this to be an error because Church passage was Harveys domain. However, a possibility of an exit via St James passage is viable simply because that was his jurisdiction. Also to be noted, Watkins calls this beat his regular beat. Which indicates that though he completed other beats, this was the one he was most familiar with.
Jeff,
Jeff, yes absolutely.
He may have aborted many a time. I agree.
Gareth,
The reason I put Janes pictures up was not to show how light or dark the corner was but rather how Morris could have seen all entrances to the square. Church passage entrance is clearly lit. The lamp opposite his door was deficient (that is the gas was of a poor quality rather than a broken lamp) and was not working to it full capacity. However, the lamp at Mitre Street would have lit that entrance. Finally, St James Passage entrance is only a couple of feet away from Morris’s door so anyone passing there would have been noted.
That said, all of this is moot. The fact remains that Morris was not there and Jacky and Eddowes were.
I agree, Morris would have been far stretched to see into that particular corner.
I tell you what, I’ll give you a tip. I suggest you read an article titled ‘Jack by Gaslight’ in Ripperologist 58. It’s an ok read even though the author is a crack pipe smoker ! It kinda explains the lighting situation in Mitre Square. If you don’t own a copy I‘ll have a word with the editors and see if I can get you a copy of the article.
Cheers,
Monty
PS Just 2 pointers.
1) Each lamp was unique is how much light it gives out.
2) On average, an excellently maintained gas lamp gives out the same light as you refrigerator light.
It begins.....
|
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
