| Author |
Message |
    
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 174
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 12:06 am: | 
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All,
I am not familiar with the East End streets asides from the maps and descriptions in the casebook and in some of the Ripper books.
Understanding that MK's murder would have given the ripper the most seclusion, and therefore, the most time to do his deed (if one believes in the C5), is there a seclusion ranking we can do with the other 4?
Here's a go at it:
Buck's Row seclusion rank 1 (least secluded)
Berner rank 2
Hanbury rank 3
Mitre Square rank 4
Miller's Ct rank 5 (Most secluded)
What I'm looking for is the possibility that there was a progression in the mutilation of victims because of the seclusion of the area, meaning, less chance of Jack getting caught. Seclusion may be a lot of factors. It could be darker, less trafficked, less populated. I don't know the area, so I can't say. I also don't know what it could mean except perhaps if Jack had more time on the first murder, whatever compulsion he may have had could have been sated and 4 less women dead for the sake of it.
This is just a random thought. Don't know if there's anything to it.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 988
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 8:26 am: |
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Having seen Bucks Row (then Durward St) in the 70s - cottages gone but much else relatively unchanged - I would say that it was more secluded than the yard entrance at Berner St and would have been even more so in the small hours in 1888.
The yard at 29 Hanbury (the risk of going there at all apart) was very secluded except from intruding residents.
Mitre Square which I again saw before the 80s modernisation, was also very secluded and in 1888 would have been very dark. I recall the big buildings around (I assume the wharehouses, still there then) looming up. It was depressing place.
To make this work in any objective way, Mike, I think you have to agree some criteria and weightings, against which to score the various locations and then rank them according to the result. I don't think personal opinion helps much as what "secluded" means to you might be different to what what the word means to me.
Phil |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
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Good idea Baron,
Mitre Square offered him 5 minutes between PC Watkins & PC Harvey's beats but Eddowes was killed in a corner which could mean that PC Harvey(who's beat only took him down church passage and not actually into the square) could well have missed the sight in the dark corner,but seeing as he was the one who discovered the body this is unlikely. There was a night watchman at No5 Mitre Square(George Clapp) & Pc Watkins last passed through at 1:30am. The pubs were closed & people were not yet rising to go to work.
Although not well lit & off the main road Mitre Square presented an extremely high risk & yet Eddowes was very badly mutilated.
The back yard of 29 Hanbury St however was very secluded, and offered the killer almost complete privacy to commit the crime.However, it was after 5am and people were rising and on their way to work, so I think it is important to include the time in any estimate of this type.
If I had to do a list it would be...
1.Berner St
2.Mitre Sq
3.Hanbury St
4.Bucks Row
5.Millers Court
Given a choice would you be Monty Burns and have the money or would you be Homer Simpson & have Marges love?
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1550
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 9:10 am: |
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Phil
Just out of curiosity, do you know when Mitre Square was modernised? I went there probably in 1987 or 1988, and my memory is of it being much more confined than when I've revisited it more recently. Or is it just my memory playing tricks?
Chris Phillips
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 989
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
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As I recall (and I may be very wrong) the Square was relatively unchanged around 1976/78 and had changed hugely and unrecognisably by the mid-80s.
The other Philip (George Hutchinson) might be more reliable on this.
Alas, I did not possess a camera in the 70s and thus have no pics to compare against my memory. I have pics of Bucks Row from the 80s - murder spot etc relatively untouched. But by then Mitre Square was in process of transformation!!
Phil |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 482
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Hi all,
I've pointed out the general progression from least secluded to most secluded on another thread, a trend that would be counter to usual in a serial killer. They usually become more careless as they carry on, indeed, that's why a lot of them are caught. I can see where there might be some relation to the mutilation in that regard.
Previously I ranked them:
1-Buck's Row on street
2-Mitre Square on pavement
3-Dutfield's Yard behind fence
4-29 Hanbury Street back yard
5-13 Miller's Court indoors
Note, I said "general trend".
Stan |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 175
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Stan,
In your estimation, it looks as if Mitre Square wasn't very obscure. If the initial strike was done quickly, is there a concealed area where the killer might think it unlikely that he would be seen? Also, if the killer was unaware of patrols, might Mitre Square seem secluded?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 484
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
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Hi Mike,
I mainly put it well up on the list because it is a public street of a sort. You're right when you say that the killer might not have perceived it as an area that placed him at risk.
Stan |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 833
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 9:36 pm: |
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No matter who makes a list Miller's court is always the last one. That was a function of the growing hysteria in Whitechapel. The mobs attacking anyone that might be Jack, the increased police patrols, the vigilance committees all had their effect. They caused his killings to come farther and farther apart and finally drove him indoors. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 176
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 11:35 pm: |
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Diana,
Right, but if he went to Miller's Court the first night, would there have been any others? That is the question.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 990
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 3:16 am: |
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Diana, on what basis do you make the statement:
...Miller's court is always the last one. That was a function of the growing hysteria in Whitechapel...?
Surely, we simply cannot know the reasons or the motivation. There might have been many, including a different killer (argued by many on Casebook, though I have an open mind on that).
I'm afraid I don't think that your logic is tenable.
Edited to add - I don;t think Mitre Square can be characterised as a "public street" - it is evidentloy a thoroughfare, but its shape would have meant that even if traversed some parts were always remote. In 1888 at night I would think it would be quite a frightening place - a risky shortcut. But it cannot be compared with Bucks Row or Berner St as a "street" IMHO.
Phil
(Message edited by Phil on October 23, 2005) |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:41 am: |
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As I tried to point out,the time of day would have been a huge factor too. As you correctly point out Phil, Mitre Square was more of a 'shortcut' which meant that at the time Eddowes was killed,less people would have been using it. Given that the killing was after 1:30am, the pubs had closed and folks were not yet on their way to work.
As far as Millers Court goes,police patrols were stepped up and civilians brought in to help after Annie Chapman was killed, yet possibly Stride and certainly Eddowes, still died on the street.Eddowes in Mitre Square which was patrolled by TWO PC's within as little as five minutes of each other.
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4176
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:52 am: |
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Mike,
Mitre Square should definitely not be number four. It is way less secluded than the Hanbury Street yard.
The latter was a small back yard with only one exist. Mitre Square is indeed not the 'square' one thinks it is, but actually like a larger back yard, but because of its quadratic layout it is a rather open place, and there are THREE exits out of it, as opposed to the Hanbury Street Yard's one.
Hanbury Street yard is certainly much more secluded.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4177
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 1:19 pm: |
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Correction:
"The latter was a small back yard with only one exist."
should naturally say:
"The latter was a small back yard with only one exit."
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
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We keep looking at this from Jack's perspective. From the prostitutes perspective, it must have occurred to them that Jack was mostly likely to strike when it was late and there were less people about. If a prostitute accepted a client at this time, does it tend to show that he was of the less threatening variety?
c.d. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4181
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
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"From the prostitutes perspective, it must have occurred to them that Jack was mostly likely to strike when it was late and there were less people about."
True, c.d., but I guess it wouldn't matter much to them, since late evening and night-time was the main and busiest working hours of street prostitutes, as it is today.
If they wouldn't have accepted clients at that time of day, it wouldn't be much point in soliciting in the first place. Which means that they had very little choice anyway. If Jack knew that and used that deliberately to his advantage, or if he just went strolling around at night and randomly chose these women (as he came upon them) because they were the ones that were out alone at those hours, is hard to say.
We know that the prostitutes were afraid for their safety and I am sure of they felt threatened by a number of their nightly customers, but they also said themselves that the alternative options - starvation, sleeping outside because of no doss money etc. - were just as unattractive as falling into the hands of the Ripper.
My point with this is, that he doesn't necessarily might have belonged to the less threatening characters just because they accepted him - I suppose they encountered a lot of dregs that made them feel uneasy - only stating that they due to their extreme circumstances had very little choice but to accept even a bad client, as long as he could pay for the services. I don't envy their position.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 180
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
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CD,
You are right there. The Ripper had to seem either non-threatening or the victims had to be entirely besotted. Non-threatening could mean many things, however. Did you have something in mind?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 181
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
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back to seclusion... Thanks for the postings on suggested rankings. Let's say JTR was just looking for places of obscurity after midnight and before dawn, and didn't know anything about police patrols. Presumably patrols changed patterns, is that right?
Anyway, does that change anything in the rankings?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4183
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:32 pm: |
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Mike,
From what I heard (God knows where, or if it is a confirmed fact), the police seems to have changed their beats prior to the Eddowes murder (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
If the Ripper knew the police beats in general is hard to say, but considering his narrow time frames one can not rule it out. However, more importantly, I would say - because of the nature of their occupation - that the prostitutes knew them.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 23, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 182
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:56 pm: |
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Glenn,
Do you know if the prostitutes changed their beats as well to match that of the police, or would they have stayed away from the ploice to make it easier to ply their trade?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 487
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:59 pm: |
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Non-threatning? A policeman, a clergyman, a famous person, a womam, a young person or at least someone who looked very young. (The last is my pet theory. No evidence; just like the sound of it.)
Those are the first I'd list.
Stan |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 184
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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Stan,
A 23 year old hairdresser could look VERY young...
I hope I'm not sounding like I'm suggesting something.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 488
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
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Hi Mike,
I was thinking of someone more like a teenager but who knows.
Stan |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 835
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
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teenagers have killed [word word] |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1946
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:31 am: |
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Glenn,
The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888.
THE SECOND TRAGEDY.
Ghastly Mutilation - A Sickening Sight - Interviews with Doctors and the Policeman who found the Body.
Mitre-square, the scene of the second tragedy, is off Mitre-street. It is approachable by three thoroughfares - by narrow entrances from St. James's-place, Duke-street, and by Mitre-street, and in the daytime is the scene of much commercial activity. There are two dwelling-houses in the square, one of which is occupied by a day policeman. He was in bed at the time. It was in this square, and in the darkest corner of it, that the second outrage was perpetrated. And it must have been done quickly, as it was done surely, for a policeman passes through the square every quarter of an hour. Police-constable Watkins, the man in question, was on duty there, and no more conscientious officer is in the force. His inspector speaks of him in the highest terms. He was on duty on the same beat last night, and a Star man went carefully over the same ground covered by him on the preceding night. "I was working left-handed last night," said the police officer. "Sometimes I go into Mitre-square through the Church-passage, but last night I entered from Mitre-street. It was just half-past one when I turned out of Aldgate and passed round the next corner into the square. At that time there was nothing unusual to be seen."
An indication Watkins was working backwards that night? I think there is another reference.
Now Watkins wouldnt work backwards off his own bat. He would have been instructed to do this and it was a routine Police tactic. As Harvey was in the same City force logic dictates the he also would have worked his beat backwards.
Regards,
Monty
PS They would have been on duty at 9.45pm and expected to be in full beat 'flow' by 10pm. If someone was studying the beat times, and I see no reason why the girls were not at least, then they were stuying it from 9.45pm onwards.
(Message edited by monty on October 24, 2005)
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 195
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 5:53 am: |
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The yard in Berner Street had the seclusion of darkness.Two of the three witnesses who passed through there,spoke of a situation of darkness so intense,that they were incapable of seeing anything within the yard.A good place to commit murder,if the deed could be accomplished quickly,and by surprise. |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 7:15 am: |
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Not to rain on the parade or anything but.....
My point with this is, that he doesn't necessarily might have belonged to the less threatening characters just because they accepted him
Glenn makes a very important point here that should not be overlooked: we should never ever forget that these women were not prostitutes by choice, and were selling themselves for the most basic things such as food or as an alternative to spending the night in the gutter.
Another good thing to remember about Mitre Square is that we have no evidence that Kate Eddowes was,in fact,a prostitute.
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
|
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1947
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 7:56 am: |
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Steve,
Another good thing to remember about Mitre Square is that we have no evidence that Kate Eddowes was,in fact,a prostitute.
Damn right.
However, she was found in a prostitute area not far from St Boltophs. Why would she be in that area?
Cheers
Monty
PS Fulham !
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
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All,
Quite why so many rank Mitre Square as "exposed" I really don't know. It was a very secluded part of the City, with only a handful of residents and surrounded by commercial buildings and warehouses. In contrast, Hanbury Street itself was teeming with private or public lodgings and number 29 was home to several families. Apart from 13 Miller's Court, Mitre Square was about the "safest" murder site Jack could have wished for.
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BelindafromHenmans
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:58 am: |
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I agree with Phil Hill. It's precious difficult to get Whitechapel worked up about anything, especially if it's perverse, henious or pervasive. " It is common to hear cries of murder so I didn't go down..." or whatever it was she said.
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Matt Humphreys
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
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The flip side to seclusion of course is that by definition the chance of escape is restricted.
He may have had more time to commit the murders/mutilations but the more secluded the spot the less his chance of escape.
I would rank the risks taken by the Ripper in the following order -
1. Mitre Square - very dark corner, 3 exits, overlooked by warehouses and shops
2. Buck's Row - poorly lit, 2 exits, overlooked by warehouses and dwellings
3. Berner Steet - poorly lit, 2 exits (though Dutfield's Yard itself is a dead end), overlooked by shops, dwellings, pubs and the International Working Mens' Club which the Ripper would have certainly known was occupied by people still very much awake.
4. Hanbury Street - roughly on a par with Berner Street - 2 exits from No. 29, though the back-yard was a real trap for the Ripper. Overlooked by dwellings.
5. Miller's Court - 2 exits from Dorset Street, Miller's Court was a dead end and the room itself a certain trap if anyone had entered. Overlooked by dwellings, pubs and doss houses.
NB for exits read "escape routes" from the crime scene/crime street.
The risks the Ripper took were enormous - so the more secluded he was the more he was to be cornered too especially as the streets were never really quiet!
Matt |
steve tavani
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 6:01 am: |
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I agree with 4 and 5, but 1,2,3 could be 1, 1a, and 1b. Both the Hanbury and the Berner sites where somewhat secluded, but apparently had traffic all hours of the night. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 186
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 1:47 pm: |
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Gareth,
So would you say at the time of morning that the victim was killed, Mitre Square would have been
as secluded as any other place with regards to passersby (not including police, which JTR may or may not have known about)?
Thanks
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 43
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
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I posted this in another thread but it sort of got lost in the shuffle and never garnered a response. The question is this...I can't imagine a prostitute during the time of the murders going off to a location suggested by a client if he had not wanted to go where she initially suggested. I think she would immediately be suspicious and quite reluctant. Obviously sight seeing was not a priority and "business" could be transacted most anywhere. So what would happen if Jack found himself somewhere not to his liking? Somewhere where he didn't feel he had a good chance at an escape. Would he participate in sex and look elsewhere? Changing his mind and saying he was no longer interested in sex would most likely be talked about among the prostitutes and perhaps a description of the "strange customer" might be given. What do you think he would do in this circumstance? |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2226
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 6:12 am: |
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Hi c.d,
Well there is a possibility that this was what happened in Berner Street. Maybe Jack thought Dutfield's Yard was too risky and tried to get Stride to accompany him elsewhere. Maybe she refused to budge, or maybe she wasn't even working that night.
And if she told him she was waiting for someone, he would have to think on his feet and kill her quickly there and then, or push off and hope she wouldn't be a problem for him later.
Love,
Caz
X |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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Guys,
Something to think on....my highlights.
The Star LONDON. MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888.
The Night Watchman's Story.
The Star man next got hold of Morris, the watchman at Kearley and Tonge's. He was standing at the door, and said, first, that he had just been through the warehouse and had gone to the front door to look out into the square two moments before Watkins called to him last night.
"Do you always take a look out into the square?"
"Every night in the week, barring Saturday night, I stand at this door and smoke my pipe from one till two o'clock. It is a habit with me, and the police on the beat know it well, but on Saturday nights I have some work to do inside that interferes with it."
"Did you see anything lying about that indicated what sort of man the murderer might be?"
"I saw the doctor pick up two studs out of the pool of blood and put them in the shell."
"But are there any signs of a struggle having taken place?"
"No, but the studs might have been worked out by the man's own exertions in using the knife."
So Sunday morning was the only time of the whole week Morris did not stand in the square smoking his pipe between the hours of 1.00am till 2.00am.
How lucky can you get?
Not so secluded after all.
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2995
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
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Monty,
lucky?
Thats more than lucky, sorry couldnt resist.
But seriously thats very, very lucky,
unless..
I wonder when he did smoke his pipe on that day. not at all or at a different time.
Who would know when Morris smoked his pipe, apart from Morris and Watkins?
Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 196
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:48 am: |
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Perhaps the killer,whether it was only one or more than one,knew of many secluded places better than those in which the murders were committed,but there were perhaps many factors,unknow to us,that dictated the chosen murder sites.
Dutfields yard was certainly more secluded than the street just yards away,and the backyard in Hanbury street a better place than the open street.So too was the darkest corner of Mitre square the best place in that near vicinity,so we cannot fault the killers thinking in choosing those spots,if the circumstances demanded it be done there and then. |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 181
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
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Steve Swift
Hi Steve
Yes it is true that there is no evidence to support Kate being a prostitute, however I do have a question here:
Since Kate and John did not have enough money to share a doss bed , where did Kate get the money to drink to the point of getting totally drunk.
Drunk enough to imitate a fire engine in the street, causing her arrest.
If I read correctly, Kate told John to use the leftover money for his bed for the night and Kate was going to a women's shelter (workhouse).
Where did she get the money to get so drunk? Why didn't she go directly to the workhouse? Surely someone bought her drinks, but who? She didn't have money of her own else she would have spent it on doss money for her and Kelly to spend the night together.
Either she had friends with money, or she earned the money, but how?
I know she was not considered a prostitute, but, she did ,in my opinion, prostitute when necessary.
I would be happy to hear any explanations as to whow or where she came up with this money that helped her get totally pissed.
regards
Julie
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Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
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Hey Julie
Kate was well known in her family circle as a scrounger of some repute. Also,among the victims,she does tend to stand out as having a rather sunny disposition,always singing etc.Add to that the fact that she was still pretty and it shouldnt be a problem for her to skive drinks in the pub.
One of her friends had a good day,she found a couple of pence in the street,she hawked something....who knows? There could be a hundred reasons how she got blotto.
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
|
c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 45
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
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I am wondering if we are not going overboard in making these locations more dangerous than they actually were. I think it is reasonable to assume that the prostitutes were pretty familiar with the times of the police beats. But we also assume that the P.C.s were hell bent to catch Jack. Well...maybe. Probably more than one P.C. was less than sympathetic to the prostitutes situation and while catching Jack would be great for their careers, do you think that there would have been any P.C.s who might have been less than eager to come upon a knife wielding maniac in a dark place? As for residents of the area and anyone else who might encounter a couple, it probably made a lot more sense to pretend you didn't see anything and just walk on by. |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 785
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:20 pm: |
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Julie,
Remember, to date no one has found a contemporary source for the "fire engine imitation." Wonderful bit of color but it would so far seem to be only Apocryphal. Good point on the prostitution when necessary and I think Steve provided some of the many ways she might have gotten drink money.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 498
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:25 pm: |
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Perhaps Kate was snout and received a gratuity for tipping the police.
Stan |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 188
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:35 pm: |
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All,
Would the prostitutes know the police beats? If so, was it because they wanted to avoid the police or because they wanted to be somewhere in the vicinity of a policeman for protection? I am assuming that prostiution was illegal, but police looked the other way in most cases. Is this correct?
If it was illegal, and a girl/woman had been warned not to engage, or be caught engaging by the police, would they then take their johns to places knowing that they'd have enough time to do the dirty deed before the cops came around? If so, Jack could have known they wouldn't want to get caught nearly as much as he didn't want to get caught.
Just some ideas
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 46
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:49 pm: |
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Hi Mike,
I too have wondered if, once the murders started, the prostitutes would have wanted to be near a patrol beat.
Given all that went on in the East End, I don't think that prostitution was the main concern of the police. There were a limited number of jail cells and prostitutes most likely could not pay the fine or make bail. If they put them in a cell, they might have to feed them something and listen to their drunken abuse. Who needs that when they would be right out on the street again (much like today). I think you are right that they tended to look the other way or accepted a bribe (in whatever form).
c.d. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 189
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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CD,
I also wonder if the police really cared about what they (the prostitutes) were doing. It is well documented that the upper class were much more concerned about 'immoral' behavior than the lower classes who didn't mind a bit. I'm not saying that prostitution is or was immoral, just at how it was looked at by others.
So, do you think the prostitutes avoided the cops?
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:10 pm: |
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Mike,
I would think that the prostitutes tried to avoid the police but were probably not fanatical about it. There were probably P.C.s who strictly enforced the law no matter what it was. Also, prostitutes could be beaten up or they might rob a customer causing trouble for the police who might think it better to nip the problem in the bud. And if I am right about a police shakedown now and then, it probably made sense for the prostitutes to just stay out of sight.
c.d. |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 47
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
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Would the prostitutes know the police beats? If so, was it because they wanted to avoid the police or because they wanted to be somewhere in the vicinity of a policeman for protection? I am assuming that prostiution was illegal, but police looked the other way in most cases. Is this correct?
Yes, a blind eye tended to be turned unless it was something blatant & I think the chances that these women knew the beats are good,Abberline for example, claimed he knew Kelly by sight so it's quite likely she was familiar to the PC's too.
The important thing here is not to assume all these women were engaged by the killer with business in mind.The only one we know with more or less certainty is Chapman, but even she could have been killed if she had gone into the yard to relieve herself for example,Kellys killer could have been waiting until she was alone and asleep before he slipped the latch and crept in...we should not assume the killer had any contact with his victims because he may well have been the watcher in the shadows just waiting for a chance.
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 190
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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Steve,
I don't think he necessarily had any contact with the women. Indeed, he could just have been an opportunist. I believe he would have seen them around, maybe even have done some sort of trade where he may have had the occasional interaction, but for the girls, he could have been faceless, or at least just a harmless person. Thanks for your answers.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 6:17 am: |
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Mike,
I am assuming that prostiution was illegal, but police looked the other way in most cases. Is this correct?
Prostitutes walked (they couldnt be picked up by the Police if they kept moving) around St Boltophs, not far from Mitre Square, looking for trade. Hence my question to Steve earlier this week.
The area, along with Leman street, seems to be a predominant prostitute area.
I also feel this is why Halse and his cronies were out and about in that area on the morning of Eddowes demise.
Cheers
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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