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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 174
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 3:29 pm: | 
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Sir Robert
I do agree with you, however I doubt that if Elizabeth was prostituting that night that she would have cared enough to have cachous on hand for sweet breath. It would seem to me that when these ladies of the evening picked up a john, it would be a wham, bang thank you mame.I doubt they kissed these regular johns.
I am not discounting Liz as a ripper victim nor am I discounting the fact that she may have had an actual date that night.Maybe even someone from the workingmen's club.
She may have assumed there was more to the relationship than he did. She may have shown up there unexpectantly which may have angered him. She could have threatened to expose him to his wife and out of desperation or rage he killed her. Just a hypothetical situation, but not unheard of then or even now for that matter.
I am undecided with Liz. There are so many pros and cons both ways.
regards
Julie
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 565
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 3:40 pm: |
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".I doubt they kissed these regular johns. "
Even if they didn't - and I don't know either way - they needed to negotiate business and get jiggy with it at close quarters. We know that Stride had dental problems; she may well have had halitosis issues. (I'm not trying to be funny...it's a sad situation no matter what way you look at it.)
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 723
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
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Hi Steve,
See my previous post about the cachous for some alternative ideas.
As for cutting the throat when disturbed, basically, yes. I think that's the usual assumption in the "interution theory". Jack has Stride on the ground, and when cutting her throat, he hears Diemshutz pony cart approaching (or turning into the ally even; not sure exactly how close the pony cart is supposed to get when Jack is proposed to abandon his victim).
So I think the cut to Stride's throat could be argued to be "shallower" and less complete if her killer (usually Jack in this line of reasoning) was disturbed .
However, the wound to Eddowes appears to be very similar to Stride's, and there are no signs that he was disturbed/interupted at this crime (at least at the stage of throat cutting). If Eddowes is linked to Nichols and Chapman due to the mutilations, despite the differences in the wound to the throat, then it's possible the similarities in the throat wound would link Stride to Eddowes (and through Eddowes, Stride to the rest of the series).
The coincidences we have are two supposed prostitutes are killed close in time and space by having their throat's cut. This occurs during a throat-cutting and mutilating serial killer's spree. The temporal sequence of the murders is for the first not to be mutilated, but the 2nd is (and shows an increased level of mutilations from the murders on prior nights, now including the face).
One interpretation suggests the same killer is responsible, the increased mutilations during the 2nd murder reflect lack of gratification from the first. The first murder shows no mutilations because the killer is theorized to have been interrupted. There is nothing in the evidence that rules out this possibility, and there are events that are known to have happened which would provide just such an interruption. Moreover, the testimony relating to the time line of the blood clotting is not inconsistent with the interuption theory (I had a long post on this quite some time ago; not sure where it is now though. Sorry).
However, the evidence is not conclusive, and it all could just as easily be consistent with the murderer being someone other than "Jack", and the murder happening long enough before Diemshutz arrives causing the proposed "interuption".
What I find interesting is that on the night where Jack's throat cutting is different from his previous killings (Nichols and Chapman), it is similar to the throat wound on Stride. Nichol's and Chapman's throats were both cut completely around and to the spine. Eddowes' throat was deep on the left side, and shallow on the right. It did not show the encircling cut of the previous murders (Nichols and Chapman). On this one night where he cuts Eddowes throat in an atypical way, Stride is murdered with a similar throat wound, which is only slightly shallower.
Now, maybe Jack just stopped doing the circular cuts after Chapman (found he couldn't get the head off, so why bother trying?). Now, if that's the case, he then just resorts to a "standard cut" (meaning, if you look at any two random throat cutting murders, this is sort of what you get). If that's the case, then the similarities between Stride and Eddowes wounds are nothing to get excited about. Take any two random throat cutting murders and you would find the wound is much like what they both recieved. As there is evidence that in Chapman's case Jack may have tried to remove the head, and failed, then one could easily see why he might not bother to try again (and why he might just disfigure the face instead).
What I don't know, of course, is whether or not the wound from a typical throat cutting murder is similar to what both Eddowes and Stride had. If those wounds are not a "standard" or "typical" wound, then we have a physical link between those two crimes that makes the probability of a single killer very high. If, however, the wounds are common between random murders, then we do not have a link, and question remains open.
- Jeff
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
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Prostitutes almost never kiss their clients on the mouth period. Its an institution within prostitution.
I..uh..er...saw that on a documentary about prostitutes.
Honest. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2684
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Female victims from 1888 in the general area of the East End who were attacked with a knife and had their throats cut:
February 2 - Postami, Back Church Lane, Whitechapel.
April 3 - Eliza Jane Lowe, Bow.
June 6 - Mary Newman, Pancras. Murdered.
September 28 - Liz Bartlett, Poplar. Murdered.
October 2 - Sarah Brown, Westminster. Murdered.
October 17 - Sarah Brett, Peckham.
October 29 - Emily Marriott, Fulham.
December 12 - Lucretia Pembroke, Bermondsey. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2200
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 6:37 am: |
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Hi AP,
It would be good to get all this information in one place at some stage, with any extra details you can get hold of, like inside/outside, domestic/stranger/unknown, sentence where assailant convicted, and so on.
Hi How,
I'm sure you are right about the no kissing rule - I heard it on tv too. 
That's why I think the cachous may have been more for Liz's benefit than her customers'.
But they could have had a dual purpose - Sir Robert may well be right about those dental probs and getting up close to potential business.
I also like Jeff's suggestion that the cachous could have been kept up Liz's sleeve and slid out into her palm when she was killed. As small children in the late fifties, it was quite usual to keep a cotton hankie tucked up our sleeves.
It would be good to have some expert feedback, Jeff, on your question about the apparent similarity between the double event cuts, so we can learn if that would be expected anyway, whether Jack did both, or two cut-throats were involved.
Love,
Caz
X |
steve tavani
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
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Female victims yes, but were they prostitutes? Further, were they dispatched with the ruthless precision of a seasoned killer- a killer who was able to force her to the ground by her shoulders, deftly slice her throat, and maintain the presence of mind to avoid detection? |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 7:54 am: |
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Hi Caz.
About the double event cuts, Philip Sugden in his "Complete History of JtR" has this to say.
"FIRST, THE TECHNIQUE BY WHICH THE VICTIMS' THROATS WERE CUT WAS VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL. THE THROAT OF EACH VICTIM WAS SEVERED FROM LEFT TO RIGHT WHILE SHE WAS LYING ON THE GROUND. AND IN BOTH CASES THE LEFT CAROTID ARTERY SUFFERED FAR MORE DAMAGE THAN THE RIGHT".
The above passage was from his summing up of the Stride & Eddowes murders.
Best wishes.
DAVID C.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2690
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Nah, steve, they were just wimmin.
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Steve Swift
Police Constable
Username: Swift
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 2:08 pm: |
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Female victims yes, but were they prostitutes? Further, were they dispatched with the ruthless precision of a seasoned killer- a killer who was able to force her to the ground by her shoulders, deftly slice her throat, and maintain the presence of mind to avoid detection?
I think the fact the victims were prostitutes is irrelavant to be quite honest,they were females who were small (apart from Stide) drunk,sick and out on the street in the early hours is what mattered.
love n life - Steve  |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 724
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 2:56 pm: |
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Hi David,
Thanks for that passage from Sugden. I've read his book a few times now, and had forgot that sumation. And here I thought my analysis was "original", but it appears that I was guided by something I had read. Happens all the time though. I once wrote a long poem (The Tale of Captain Lad), which was all about a ghost ship and pirates and curses and such. Thought it was a great story, with all sorts of adventure, etc. Showed it to a buddy of mine who looked at me and just said "Thought Coleridge did it better". Sure enough, when I went back and re-read the Ryme of the Ancient Mariner, well, hadn't I just stolen almost every aspect of the plot! And, I had read it only a few months earlier, but never made the connection. Funny how that happens.
Hmmm, that was indeed a strange diversion of topic, even for me.
- Jeff |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 725
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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Hi Caz,
I would also like some feedback on that idea. I see Sugden also concludes the cuts were similar, although I'm not sure who made that call. Like I said, without expert knowledge pertaining to what a "typical" throat wound looks like, it is hard to say if the similarities listed are sufficient to conclude the same person did both. They could be similar because the majority of murderous throat wounds look like these ones. (Meaning the similarity is not indicative of one killer).
- Jeff |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 191
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 4:47 am: |
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Maybe the blueish discoloration marks on Stride,noticed by Phillips at his postmortem examination of her body,suggest she was a at least a third victim of the same killer.
Phillips writes of his watching for these marks,and of seeing the same on two other occassions.He does not identify the other two victims,but they may have been Nicholls and Chapman. |
an armchair detective
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
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Hello Stan,
You wrote:
Martin: I've lived over half a million hours and, as yet, there's not been even one single throat slashing prostitute killer in my neighborhood.
I am very glad to hear that Stan, but I fail to see its relevance to the discussion at hand.
I am afraid the only thing I can deduce from your remark is that you live in a neighbourhood where throat slashing prostitute killers are as rare as giraffes on the North Pole.
But this wasn't the case in Whitechapel more than a century ago, was it?
On july 16 1889, the lifeless body of a prostitute was found in Castle Alley, a spot quite close to the murder sites of both Stride and Eddowes. Her name was Alice McKenzie and her throat was slit.
On february 13 1891, a prostitute was found murdered in Shallow Gardens near Chamber Street, only a few streets away from the place where Stride was found. This time her name was Frances Coles and, like McKenzie, her throat was slit.
Now unless you believe that both Coles and McKenzie were killed by Jack, and I don't think there are many people who do, than you must admit there is a distinct possibility that there were three separate throatslashers at work, their victims in every case prostitutes, in the same neighbourhood and within a period of less than two and a half years.
So why could there have been throat slashing prostitute killers not called Jack in 1889 and 1891, but not in 1888?
I have no idea, but for reasons unknown to me you seem to be quite sure of your case.
So I have a sneaking suspiscion that I am not going to convince you, Stan. In fact, I am sure that after reading this post you will still be 99,9999999999999% convinced that Stride's killer couldn't have been anyone else than Jack.
Possibly even 99,99999999999999999%.
Kindest regards,
Martin |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1939
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 9:31 am: |
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Steve,
I think the fact the victims were prostitutes is irrelavant to be quite honest,they were females who were small (apart from Stide) drunk,sick and out on the street in the early hours is what mattered
And what type of approachable woman would be out on the streets at that time of night?
And thats why victimology is relavant. Prostitutes talk to strangers, its part of the job. And this makes them vulnerable targets and easy pickings for Jack. No need to attack in the open, in full view. Just a quiet arrangment, off to a secluded spot then.....BAM !
regards,
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4166
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 1:36 pm: |
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I have to agree with everything "Armchair" Martin says here, and I couldn't have said things any better.
Regarding domestic killings, I once stated in a post referring to that Liz's murder wasn't preceded by any screams or rows:
"Why does people assume that every domestic murder has to be preceded by ten minutes of shouting and screaming?"
And Steve Swift answered:
"It is based on twenty years of attending domestics Glen."
And I say: Oh really? So why is it that there are loads of cases of domestic murder or attacks that seems to have been performed by some kinds of surprise/blitz attack and no arguing or screams? Again, people seem to be drawing the falwty conclusion, that the things we see in Stride's murder only can be interpreted as the work of a serial killer. No misconception can be greater than that. Sometimes I wonder if people are just speculating, based on what they think domestic murders should be like in their own head.
Crime history actually shows that a great deal of domestic killings are not based on any longer or loud arguments, but that in fact the victim (wife, girlfriend) has been taken by surprise.
Besides, if the man seen by Schwartz WAS Stride's murderer, her murder WAS preceded by an argument and some sort of struggle anyway (and in a way I find very little corroborative with Jack's approach), so I fail to see why this would be an argument that goes against the domestic theory.
We know, not least from AP:s research but also from just browsing through crime history, that throat cutting was a common way of killing someone in general in the 1880s and was also used in domestic contexts. probably because quite many people from different sorts of trades at the time were just to handling a knife, while people today seems to prefer gunshots, strangulation or random stabbing.
And we also have the domestic Westminster murder the same night as the double event to further illustrate it.
And for the record: how many ways are there to slash a throat? As Jeff points out, are we really sure of that Jack's throat-cutting technique really was that original? I have seen throat cutting incidents in Sweden, some earlier than the Ripper, with the same type of wounds.
That being said, I think the 'similarity' of Stride's throat wound compared to the Ripper's is highly over-rated and exaggerated, but it must be noted that it is very hard for us today 117 years in retrospect to compare them and draw any firm conclusions either way, besides trying to interpret the medical opinions and rather insufficient records that exists on the matter.
And by the way, Steve: it is 'Glenn' with double 'n'; why is it so impossible for some English/Americans to learn that?
I didn't add that for kicks in the frame to the left.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 568
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 2:34 pm: |
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"throat cutting was a common way of killing someone in general in the 1880s "
I don't doubt that...but what about targeting the left carotid artery ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 727
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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Hi Sir Robert,
It depends on if the left cartoid artery was specifically targetted, or if the left cartoid artery just happens to be in the location where a right handed person will cut someone's throat.
Trying to visualize how one would cut someone's throat, usually leads me to three "styles". The standing attack (where the victim is grabbed from behind, head held back with the left hand, and right hand goes around the front and cuts the victim left to right). That would produce a deep left side cut, shallow on the right, etc. But, that would also leave a lot of blood down the front of the victim, which probably means that it doesn't apply to the Jack murders. But, notice how a very different "attack process" might still produce a similar wound as per Stride and Eddowes (so they may be very common wound shapes, so those similarities may not mean much).
The 2nd style is the more relavent to the Jack murders. That is, victim on their back, killer on the victim's right side, to hold the head back with their left hand and again, cut from the far side (again, the victim's left side), and again, this would produce a deeper cut on the left. Since the cartoid arteries run the length of the neck, and we have one on both sides, the deep cut near the side of the neck is quite likely to sever this artery even if the killer doesn't know it's there. One doesn't need to know anatomy to know throat cutting is an effective method of killing; knowing anatomy just let's us know why it is effective!
Anyway, the third style is to have the victim on the ground, face down. Then, the killer probably kneels on their back, uses their left hand to pull the head back, and cuts the throat across. This, I think, would produce a deeper cut on the right side, as the knife is drawn up towards the killer. Again, this does not appear to apply in the Jack murders, but death would still result if the right cartoid artery is cut.
But, in 2 out of 3 "styles", a right handed killer seems likly to produce a deeper cut to the left side of the victim's neck, which will damage the left cartoid artery, resulting in death. In the 3rd, the right cartoid artery is the one at "most risk". However, if all you know is that throat cutting is effective as a murder technique, but have no idea why (i.e., you know nothing about the anatomy of the circulatory system), then no matter which of the 3 basic "attack postures" you randomly choose, all will work.
In other words, I'm not sure we want to conclude Jack was "targeting the cartoid arteries", as that sort of implies he might have knowledge about the anatomy. All he has to know is the basic knowledge of "cutting the throat kills", he doesn't need to know the structures of the neck that are involved; so he may not necessarily be targeting a particular structure.
- Jeff |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4168
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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Correction:
The sentence in my above post should naturally say:
"...probably because quite many people from different sorts of trades at the time were used to handling a knife, while people today seems to prefer gunshots, strangulation or random stabbing."
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 20, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2697
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
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I tried to make this point about three hundred years ago but nobody was listening.
In many throat cutting examples the ears are unintentionally ‘nicked’ as part of the process.
This figures in some of the Whitechapel Murders.
But not all of them.
I would say that this might well be a good indicator of victim status.
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4169
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
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AP,
Believe me, I was one of the few listening (although hopefully not as few as you think), which is why I sometimes refer to you.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 20, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 474
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 7:16 pm: |
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Hi Martin,
Firstly, I said hour(s), as per Stride/Eddowes, not years, that's the main key here.
Secondly, I did for a time live in a high rise apartment building that was known around here as a den of prostitutes and there was not one single throat slashing murder there let alone two, less than an hour apart and committed by two different killers. I've also lived in neighborhoods where murders occurred but, again, no sextuple coincidences.
Best regards,
Stan |
Steve Swift
Police Constable
Username: Swift
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:16 pm: |
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Monty,
What I meant was - the fact that the victims were prostitutes was irrelevant to the killer
Glenn (with TWO n's),
A domestic crime is one that is defined by taking place in a home environ,between a couple who are involved romantically.
For example:The murder of David Blakely by his lover Ruth Ellis was NOT a domestic crime.She calmly walked up to him as he was about to get into his car outside a public house, and emptied a revolver into him - without any argument.
Speculation about what goes on in my head? Twenty years on the Greater Manchester force gave me my experience of domestic crime Glenn, and most domestic killings ARE manslaughter.Now that is not fantasy Glenn that is FACT - go look it up.
Next point, as stated above, killers involved in 'domestic' killings very very often only end up being charged with manslaughter - not murder.
I think you will find that 'throat cutting' was not a prefered style of murder anywhere in England in 1888,it was a type of assault.The fact that people died as a result of such assaults was due more to accident than design because, as Jack the Ripper shows us, it is very difficult to target the throat using a knife while the victim is standing, they need to be prone.
There is,of course,always the chance that Liz Stride was the victim of a spurned lover,but in my opinion it is only a small chance.See,much has been made of how Kidney mistreated Liz Stride but I doubt this was anymore than most men mistreated women in the East End of 1888.One more thing, IF Kidney used to padlock Stride in a room why did she have a key to the lock? Because anyone will tell you, a padlocked door can not be opened from the inside because,of course,the padlock is on the outside.
There is a world of difference between throat cutting and throat slashing AP.The Whitechapel killer obviously cut the throat(depth of the wound) and sometimes more than once. Muggers would 'slash' the throat for the shock effect, little caring that such an assault could end up in death.
(Message edited by swift on October 20, 2005)
'A good plan violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan executed next week' - George S. Patton
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 475
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:27 pm: |
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Hey Steve, Manchester? Did you get to put the collar on Mary Bell? |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:30 pm: |
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Oh my god Stan I'm not THAT old - plus it was in Newcastle
'A good plan violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan executed next week' - George S. Patton
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 476
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:34 pm: |
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Steve; I just remembered that it was Newcastle and was here to edit but you were too quick. Stan |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 967
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
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Hi Harry,
Regarding the bluish marks on Stride, when the doctor talked about seeing them on other occasions since then, I believe he was saying he saw them on Stride's body later. He seems to be confirming that they were indeed there, not that he since looked at other people's bodies and saw similar marks.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 728
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
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Hi Harry,
I agree with Dan. I think he's just indicating he saw the same marks on different occasions of viewing Stride.
- Jeff |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 4:21 am: |
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Steve, AP,
Steve,
Firstly, sorry for my misunderstanding.
Im interested in why you feel prositutes were not the sole targets.
AP,
Ear nicking is not unusual in throat cutting?
Why the hell didnt you tell me that earlier ??
This means a lot of re-thinking for Monty.
Cheers
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 192
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 4:43 am: |
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Dan,Jeff,
Why would Phillips have needed to examine Stride's body three times,before giving his testimony at the inquest?.Bit unusual in my opinion,as he would have had plenty of time at an initial examination.The marks apparently were quite apparent.
Just my opinion,the wording is ambiguous,but I think Phillips is referring to three different cases. |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 8:58 am: |
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Ello Monty me old boot strap ;)
Well, as you so wisely stated,
And what type of approachable woman would be out on the streets at that time of night?
And thats why victimology is relevant. Prostitutes talk to strangers, its part of the job. And this makes them vulnerable targets and easy pickings for Jack. No need to attack in the open, in full view. Just a quiet arrangment, off to a secluded spot then.....BAM !
but...that does not mean he was killing them because of what they did for a living. Victimology is interesting but rarely looks into the soul of serial killers, remember Sutcliffe?
It is almost taken for granted now that he was killing them because they were prostitutes and I just think it is wrong to stand on that assumption.He was out on the prowl between midnight and five in the morning which makes it unlikely he was picking his victims up in pubs. Nichols,Chapman and Eddowes were small women,drunk or sick,ageing and quite 'frail'.But then we look at Stride and Kelly,Stride was five feet five,as tall as most men in 1888 - did she put up a fight? Kelly was a young woman and by all accounts not a small one either,possibly why he waited until she was asleep?
I readily admit there is little available evidence for Stride being a Ripper victim apart from her throat wound, and yet something made the men of 1888 believe that she was.
Something drove him off the street and into 13 Millers Court & Mary Kelly,was that 'something' the scare of the 30th of September? Did he spend October actually looking for a woman willing to take him back to the relative safety of her own room?
'A good plan violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan executed next week' - George S. Patton
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1943
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 9:32 am: |
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Hey Steve,
Sutcliffe? Sutcliffe?, nope, he escapes me.
I understand your point about soul seeking. Ive always seen the targeting of prostitutes purely and simply because they were easy to manoeuvre. Both Serial killer and prostitute look for secluded spots to commit their differing acts. This would be very convenient for Jack as there is no need to struggle to a spot. Of course, as you say, that doesn’t mean our boy had a fixation with these Streetwalkers but nothing within this particular series leads us away from this possibility. After all, the only possible non-prostitute amongst the canonical victims is Eddowes.
However, I agree that it is totally wrong to assume he was targeting just prostitutes. It works both ways doesn’t it? Susan Ward intrigues me. We have little information on this particular female, hell we are not sure she was the woman attacked off Whitechapel road but if it can be established that she was not a prostitute (long shot I know) then we are back to a Sutcliffe type again aren’t we?
Have you come across Megellans work? He feels Kellys throat wound is an indication that this killer did not do for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes. However, this may be down to the different environment he was in. Again, shades of Sutcliffe?
I think the Police saturation of the area is partly down to why October was quiet, so yes, your idea works for me in a roundabout way.
Regards,
Monty
(Message edited by monty on October 21, 2005)
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2977
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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Monty,
not to be picky but are you sure there's definately evidence for the others being prostitutes. What about the rest of the non cannon (cant spell it!).
yes i know I should be working but i'm NOT! I havent been following this thread too long so please forgive em if its been said.
Jennifer
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1945
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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Jennifer,
Magistrate, Police, family and acquaintence testimony indicate all the cannonicle 5, apart from Eddowes, had at some stage turned to prostitution.
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2981
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 10:48 am: |
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Thanks Monty.
I'll shut up now and go and hide under a rock! lol
Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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Well Sutcliffe, aka The Yorkshire Ripper, claimed a hatred of prostitutes lead him to kill and yet less than half of all the women he attacked were actually 'working girls'.
You are bang on the nail Monty,Eddowes bothers me as well because there is no statement to say she was a prostitute which is one reason I've always seen this man as an opportunist rather than a killer of whores.
As for Megellans book,nope not read it,mainly because Sickert is involved and I have trouble believing day is day and night is night in anything he is involved in.
But seeing as you brought it up(Kelly) I'll give you another reason why I think this man was an opportunist.The Axe wound on Kellys leg? Even as a kid in the early seventies we had an axe by the fireplace for chopping kindling in the morning and Kellys murderer undoubtedly lit or at least burned things on her fire - did he take it away as another trophy?
'A good plan violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan executed next week' - George S. Patton
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2703
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
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Thanks Glenn.
Always nice to know that someone is listening.
Monty, just when I was trawling through court and police reports I did find quite a number of knife attacks on women, usually directed to the throat and not fatal, where the victim lost the lobe of one ear and even sometimes two, but most often one. Then I remembered the so-called ‘ear-nicking’ of at least one of the victims.
Steve Swift
Some impressive posts there, and you are quite right, throat cutting or slitting was by no means a popular method of attack in the LVP, in fact from what I’ve read I would say that a firearm was probably the most popular choice of weapon.
The ‘manslaughter’ thing is a big thing.
When I did my calculations for the murder of women in the East End of London from 1887 to 1889 I was sorely tempted to include such victims.
But unlike you I do think the person who killed Stride - if caught - would have been tried for manslaughter.
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Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 4:30 am: |
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Steve,
"it is very difficult to target the throat using a knife while the victim is standing, they need to be prone"
They need to be supine actually - "prone" means lying face down. Each of the Canonical Five victims were found lying on their backs, or "supine".
Nothing pedantic or personal. You're in good company anyway - Sugden and other writers make the same mistake, I seem to recall.
Cheers, Gareth |
Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 3:06 pm: |
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Gareth,
I'm well aware the 5 were on the floor when their throats were cut.
I think you will find that 'throat cutting' was not a prefered style of murder anywhere in England in 1888,it was a type of assault.The fact that people died as a result of such assaults was due more to accident than design because, as Jack the Ripper shows us, it is very difficult to target the throat using a knife while the victim is standing, they need to be prone.
Indicating that the five were unusual in the fact they WERE lying down - clearer now?
Thanks for the english lesson tho - oops,should'nt that be though - ah well no gold stars for me
AP,thank you, I'm still open minded about Strides Killer to be honest.
(Message edited by swift on October 21, 2005)
'A good plan violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan executed next week' - George S. Patton
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 570
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 3:34 pm: |
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"Always nice to know that someone is listening."
A.P. you've got a fan club here...IMHO you are MVP: Most Valuable Poster .
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2704
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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I blush, Sir Robert.
And thank you.
Steve, I think you a very valuable asset to these boards, and always enjoy your contribution. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 165
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
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All,
If I may ask a question? How do we know the victims were supine when their throats were cut? Another question if I may: How do we know that Jack wasn't interrupted, or thought he was going to be interrupted in all of his killings except Kelly's?
Perhaps Jack turned them all onto their backs after cutting their throats, and then began his grisly work, but his keyed up senses told him that enough was enough, that he was going to be caught, and it wasn't until going indoors that he was able to do what he wanted to do with the first victim.
Maybe I'm missing something, I never heard that the victims were supine when their throats were cut. That wouldn't make sense to me if I wanted the surprise factor. Please point me to what book I should read that would tell that is a fact.
Thanks for your time and your work.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 176
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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Steve Swift,
You've made some good points, especially with respect to domestic murders, however, I disagree with you re the killer's preference in victims.
I think the killer especially selected prostitutes. If not than why didn't he randomly select his victims. His victims were all, or mostly, prostitutes, full time or only when necessary, whatever the case may be.
If you take a good look at many of the suspects, they had a vendetta against prostitutes in general, for whatever the reason.
I think also that one's choice of suspect depends a great deal on whether or not your suspect or my suspect etc, has a hate on for prostitutes in general.
This is certainly my thought and I am sure they are not necessarily the same reasons for other's choosing a specific suspect, however I would be greatly surprised if I stood alone with my reasoning.
regards
Julie
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 478
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 5:52 pm: |
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Hi all,
I'm not sure it's a given that all the victims were recumbent or supine when their throats were cut. You can make a pretty good argument for that in the case of Chapman and Kelly but not for the others, from what I've seen.
Regarding whether prostitutes were JTR's specific target or just what was right handy is difficult to prove either way. Gary Ridgeway, The Green River Killer, who also claimed to slay prostitutes to 'clean the streets', murdered mostly hookers, it appears, because they were the easiest to corral. By indications, however, he had no aversion to snuffing an occasional pickup, hitch-hiker, derelict or runaway as a target of opportunity.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 168
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Stan,
I agree. It is impossible to prove. Who else was out between 1 and 5 am really that was accessible?
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 409
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 7:43 pm: |
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Julie,
Saucy Jacky probably was not that picky. But killing in daylight on the streets was not an option for obvious reasons. What kind of women were out at night, was approachable without being scared by being accosted by a man, etc? Even a random pick under those circumstances would yield a statistical "overabundance" of prostitutes.
Why don't lions kill seals, but polar bears do? Hardly evidence of any intellectual deliberation on the predators here... Availability is the key.
Actually we do not know if Eddowes was soliciting. But we do know that she was out late for another reason.
Unfortunately a serial killer need no excuses, like he "hates" prostitutes for what they do, to do the things he do. But caught, he will sometimes try to put the blame on the victims.
That is actually not serial killer psychology, but human psychology in general.
And this is akin to rapists stating that "she dressed so provokingly she begged for it", and the like. Rubbish, of course!
Another point is that, according to Dr Bond's analysis (and I agree), the object of the murders were not to kill, as such, but to mutilate. Killing was just to get there.
In the case of Stride there were no mutilation, but her wound was very similar to Nichols', and her body was found very soon after the actual murder, so an interruption cannot be ruled out. Actually it seems reasonable. Indeed we know Diemschutz' arrival must have been within a few minutes of the murder, maybe less than a minute. The killer might have heard him and his cart cloppety clopping down the road as he actually cut Stride's throat.
Kelly's throat was cut from (her) right to left, but if she was sleeping\lying on bed, that might have been the killers only option.
On the other hand, there were plenty of time for mutilations in that instance.
Most victims were prostitutes, but I honestly do not think the killer cared, beyond possibly recognizing them as easy prey.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 171
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 8:35 pm: |
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Helge,
Lions don't kill seals because they aren't aquatic, nor do they live where large quantities of seals are, but I agree with you on all your points.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 9:18 pm: |
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Brilliant post Helge,I must say I agree on all your points.
Baron you said.....I agree. It is impossible to prove. Who else was out between 1 and 5 am really that was accessible?
Kate Eddowes was, and we have no evidence at all that she was a prostitute.
Stan,
I think I can make a good case for Stride being supine when her throat was cut.If you look at the post mortem it says....The throat was deeply gashed: in the neck was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of her scarf.....I doubt that would have been possible with the victim standing.
Polly Nichols......windpipe, gullet, and spinal cord being cut through.....might I suggest that such a wound would require pressure? Also very difficult if the victim is standing unless,of course,a rather heavy blade like a sword bayonet was used.
Kate Eddowes....throat cut nearly ear-to-ear, dividing all tissues down to the bone As above,possible with a heavy blade while she was standing, but not very likely.I suggest these wounds required force applied to the blade while the victim was supine,for Chapman & Kelly we have arterial spray on walls which also point to the supine method.
If,and I realise if is a big word, this is correct it gives us a signature in each of the five because that is a very unusual way to dispatch someone.In fact he could have killed them any number of ways all of which would have required less trouble which again points to a signature,as if he was 'bleeding' them?
I think there is more connects Liz Stride to JTR than Eddowes dying later......The throat was deeply gashed: in the neck was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of her scarf; the incision commenced on the left side, 2 1/2" below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it, nearly severing the vessels on that side, cutting the windpipe completely in two, and terminating on the opposite side 1 1/2" below the angle of the right jaw, but without severing the vessels on that side....the same signature deep cut applied while the victim was supine BUT....the wound is not complete,he pulls the knife before he has cut all the way through...suggesting the killer was in fact disturbed.
Given a choice would you be Monty Burns and have the money or would you be Homer Simpson & have Marges love?
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 479
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
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Hi Steve,
One suggestion is that the first three you cite were sliced from behind as JTR held their bodies against his. I not saying that's what happened, only that I'm not convinced that it didn't. The arterial jet is why I didn't dispute a recumbent cutting on your last two.
Best regards,
Stan |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 172
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 11:22 pm: |
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Steve,
By asking who else would be out, I was referring to occupations, not individuals. Sorry if I was unclear.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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