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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 722
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 4:58 am: | 
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Jack-curious,
Effectively, your guess is as good as anyone else's. there have been book's written arguing that there was no single killer, and others take the view that tabram, Stride and MJK might have been killed by other and different hands. I have been persuaded that, there is a high probability that Stide was killed by her ex-lover Kidney; and have a relatively open mind on Barnett as the killer of Kelly - though I think on balance he was probably NOT.
as to timings - I simply don't know. the streets may have been more empty then. But I see no pattern or consistency. I think we also have to take into account the pattern of life in 1888 - Paul and Cross were up MUCH earlier than most modern people would be to go to work. "Jack" could equally have been going to or coming from work; have come to the East End from outside after a night on the town; or simply liked to watch and wait. I simply don't know.
Incidentally, if you plan a historical novel, I do suggest you get your research spot on. nothing gets a novel laughed at more quickly than anachronisms and obvious period "howlers". That said, it wouldm't matter much if you are writing erotica or a comic novel - but if you intend what you write to be taken seriously, focus on the detail, however speculative your theories.
Phil. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 357
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Hi all,
Unless someone can cite another occasion in the history of the world where two throat slashing prostitute killers were operating independently within blocks and minutes of each other, then I'm not buying it. Otherwise, it's about a 99.999999% chance that Stride was a Ripper victim.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 878
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 2:49 am: |
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Well Stan, then don't buy it!!
No one, as far as I am aware, has suggested that there were two SERIAL killers involved in the East End that night in 1888. What I believe might have happened is that, by coincidence, a "domestic" murder committed by an enraged lover was ascribed incorrectly to JtR. The latter, of course, also disembowelled his victims.
Throat cutting is not a particularly strange way to kill for someone with a knife.
I see no particular difficulty.
Indeed, there probably WERE two SERIAL killers operating in LONDON at the same time - Jack, and the Whitehall torso murderer. Unless you see that as too unlikely, and wish to claim that as a result Jack was also responsible for the torso murders?
Jack's other claimed victims (Tabram? Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, MJK?) were all mutilated. Stride was not - so in a sense the MO was different in the two cases (as in Whitechapel and Whitehall murders!!). Yes, he might have been interrupted in killing Stride, but that is not a certainty, and as has been argued before, there are other circumstances which might suggest another explanation.
Jack may have killed Liz, but - if the available evidence is looked at with an open mind - I (and I think others) feel that there is room for the view that he may not have done so.
On that basis I currently regard it as only about 40% likely that Jack killed Stride.
You disagree - I'm cool about that. I certainly won't lose sleep over your disagreement. But I note that other than not liking the idea of coincidence (narrowly framed) you post gives no other reasons for your mocking tone.
Indeed, I assume that you are currently working hard to demonstrate, on the same basis that Jack must have murdered Tabram and Smith (both suffered vaginal attacks) and maybe ALL OTHER murders in the east End in 1888? because where does one murderer know the other has stopped so he can start?
Think on it,
Phil
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 361
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
I have thought about it and I've upped the odds on Stride from where I started at about 60%. Anything is possible but the odds are way too long. Two ambush type, throat slashing prostitute killers in the same place at the same time, operating independently; I can't think of anything in crime history that would match that.
Regarding Smith, I've always thought that she was too readily dismissed as a Ripper victim.
Best regards,
Stan
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2158
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 6:57 am: |
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Hi All,
It is looking very much like another double event happened in Croydon on the night of Saturday 24/Sunday 25 September.
Sally Anne Bowman, just 18, was murdered in the early hours of Sunday close to her home in South Croydon, after spending Saturday night in town. She was found with multiple stab wounds.
The police are linking this murder, via forensic evidence, with an attack in Purley back in 2001. They also believe it is linked with a non-fatal attack an hour or so previously, in which a 36 year-old woman was robbed and hit with a metal bar before a male witness came to her aid. The victim believes she saw a knife on her attacker and he said "Sorry", just before he started hitting her!
This has disturbing echoes of the double event in West Croydon in 2003, which was solved relatively quickly, and the killer is currently serving his sentence.
The change of MO (in both cases - in 2003, the first victim was partially strangled and survived; the second was beaten to death with a wooden beam) is noteworthy, as is the suggestion that both attackers' blood was up after the first incident, causing them to seek out a second victim within a short space of time.
Women are now coming forward to report attacks from 2000 onwards, and the police are looking at six at least that may be linked with Sally Anne's murder.
Everyone here is taking extra precautions when out and about, making sure they don't end up going home in the dark on their own. It's a scary time.
Still 70/30 in favour of Jack filling his boots with Eddowes because the whole awkward curfuffle with a bolshy Stride had left him wanting.
Love,
Caz
X |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 711
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 3:19 pm: |
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Hi Caz,
And Ted Bundy had two occasions at least where he had double events. Lake Samish (sp?) and the Chi Omega murders. In the 2nd one, I'm referring to the fact that after he left the first house, he broke into a 2nd residence and attacked another victim, and not to the fact that he had multiple victims in the first house. The latter is probably the better comparison, because it appears the former was more his attempt to have two victims at the same time rather than two separate crimes close in time (if that is at all clear).
- Jeff |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 128
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 3:36 pm: |
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I'm going 99/1 in favor of Jack, only because I have an open mind.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 778
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Now what was that statistic I read recently about how rare knife attacks were in the East End? That there had only been a couple of murders or something like that between 1886 and 1890 except for the Ripper killings?
Hmm....
PHILIP
PS : Don't ask me to quote source. I can't remember where it was, but it was a very authoritative one.
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 5:18 pm: |
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I must admit that I'm in favour of Jack too, reasons?
It's doubtful Stride was a domestic, no argument was heard,none,and the chances that Kidney would just walk up and kill her are slim.I look at Barnett & Kidney as little more than pimps,Kelly was different, and he seemed to have genuine feelings for Eddowes but I think Barnett & Kidney were fully aware their women were working prostitutes and lived quite happily off what they earned.
Yes I know Barnett was supposed to be visiting Mary Kelly & giving her money but then again Barnett was unemployed at the time wasnt he,I think it more likely he was visiting her to collect.These men were hardly likely to admit this due to charges of living off immoral earnings.
I think,from what witnesses say,that it is likely Stride spent most of the evening in the company of one man and then left him to go to work,hence she is seen talking(soliciting) to different men.
I think Schwarz is lying,I think he knew who assaulted Stride outside the club because it was someone FROM the club warning her about plying her trade there. Pipeman across the street witnessed this so when Stride turned up dead they could forsee a tiny problem - hence the story of the man yelling Lipski.He then further embelishes his story for the papers.
Stride gets up,brushes herself off, and totally ignores the warning and runs into her killer.
It's well known Schwarz spoke almost no english and Lipski was not even a common Jewish name,I think someone handed him that little gem.Just an opinion,but just like Hutchinson later,his statement sounds contrived. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 440
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Hello all,
Two different throat slashing prostitute killers in the same neighborhood at the same hour. Come on, what are the chances? One in a million perhaps?
In addition, you have the perfect timing to get to Eddowes. The probability that she wasn't a JTR victim would have to be near nil.
Best regards,
Stan |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2664
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
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Done that already, Stan.
I found two Whitechapel axe attacks on women on the same night. Two different men with two different axes.
Crimes not related.
One victim died.
I must admit that the odds are not good, but it happens.
You know, seriously speaking, Stride should not have died that night.
I mean from statistics.
Because there was an awful lot of attacks like this in 1888 where the victims lived.
I just posted one on another thread. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4131
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
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Stan,
Throat slashing was quite common at the time, and especially in connection with domestic related killings. The way Jack the Ripper killed his victims were not especially extraordinary, it was the mutilation signature work that was extreme.
The odds that a prostitute would suffer from violence like throat slashing in an area like East End I would describe as very high indeed. Sure, 45 minutes before Eddowes. But so what? How about the throat slashing of a wife in Westminster the same night? OK, it was not the same area, but after all it shows that throat slashings occurred everywhere. Stranger things have happened. And note that it was the same night. How is that for a coincidence?
Don't tell me you belong to those who still believes in the old myth that very few knife killings occurred before and during the Ripper crimes? Quite many cases dragged up by researchers like AP -- and which can all be found in the papers -- clearly prove that the statistics are incomplete and errounous and didn't record a large amount of murders.
I am still leaning towards 50-50 that it might have been a domestic related killing (maybe even 60-50), since there is a possible suspect. Who says there had to be an argument? If it was Kidney he could just as well have approached her and thrown her to the ground directly and it is also possible that some words were said although Schwartz didn't hear them.
Why does people assume that every domestic murder has to be preceded by ten minutes of shouting and screaming? It is just ridiculous. What phony presumptions about domestic and criminal behaviour is this based on?
And if you seriously consider Emma Smith a Ripper victim, while her own evidence clearly say that she was attacked by a gang of thugs (gangs we know existed) and no other proof or even indications imply anything else whatsoever, I don't understand your reasoning. If you are trying to increase the number of victims attributed to the Ripper, at least focus on those where we at least have some indications of facts supporting it, and not in fact evidence saying the absolute opposite.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 442
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
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Hi AP
Same occupation, same type of open location, same part of body attacked and timed perfectly for travel?
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 443
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 7:01 pm: |
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Hi Glenn,
Always rated Smith below 50-50. Just didn't think she was as low as most think. As far as wanting to increase the tally for JTR, I'm willing consider that all of the murders were separate and close the case on the old boy altogether because that would mean no such killer ever existed. There are plenty of other good unsolved cases out there for me.
Have a good one,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 445
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
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P.S.
As far as so what about the time between the murders goes; so what because if it had been much more than 45 minutes later it would have meant that others would have had more opportunity to do the deed. And so what because if it had been much less than 45 minutes, it would have meant the murders had to be totally separate acts.
Stan |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 717
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 10:30 pm: |
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Hi,
I'm 50/50 on Stride, with the choice being Jack or probably a domestic murder (Kidney). As Glenn points out, throat cutting was not really uncommon in domestic murders. Abdominal mutilation was common in the other Jack murders. With Stride, the explanation given for the lack of abdominal mutilations has been that Jack was interupted (by Diemshutz) just after cutting Stride's throat.
The problem with the interuption "theory" is that it is circular. It explains the lack of mutilations by suggesting Jack left, and the lack of mutilations is offered of proof that Jack must have left when Diemshutz arrived, causing the interuption.
However, awhile back I posted an analysis of the testimony that relates to the state of the blood found at the crime scene (and how clotted that blood was). Also, I looked up some information concerning blood clotting times, etc. Using the testimony from people with watches, and their statements with regards to the state of the blood and "clottedness" (word?), then it turns out that the testimony appears to follow a time line from "flowing" to "fully clotted". Comparing this with the "typical" timeline for blood clot formation does not rule out the idea that Stride was, in fact, killed just as Diemshutz arrived.
Unfortunately, all such "time line comparisons" have to remember that the "typical" pattern does not always reflect an individual case. We must include the unknown individual variation, and when that is considered, the time line is also completely consistent with Stride being killed well before Diemshutz arrived.
What this means, is that the medical evidence we have does not rule out either "Stride as victim of Jack" or "Stide as domestic". Both theories could be supported.
Also, I posted my (non-expert) comparison of the throat wounds between Stride and Eddowes. And to me, these two wounds show very similar characteristics. Unfortunately, I just do not know if those "common characteristics" are common between any two throat cutting murders. If they are, then these similarities are not informative. If, however, the throat wounds are more similiar than one would expect between two murders by two people, then this comparison might be the one avenue that could suggest Stride was more likely than not a Ripper victim.
If the commonalities are not sufficiently "unique", however, we're again left with both options (Jack's victim or domestic).
Basically, when one looks at Stride, there is simply nothing that can definately rule her out or in. Well, in my opinion anyway.
- Jeff |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 552
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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"Lipski was not even a common Jewish name"
Sir Robert thought it was an anti-Semitic slur.
(Yikes, that sounds odd coming from me.)
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2666
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 1:07 pm: |
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Stan, I can't do it yet, but as soon as I can I am going to find you women who were attacked with a knife within 45 minutes of each and every ascribed Ripper victim.
That should settle this question once and for all. |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 150
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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AP,
But... if it takes a long time to find these exceptions, doesn't it mean that's what they are and that they prove the rule? While I agree that Stride could have been a separate murder, it isn't something I'd bet on. To tell the truth, I don't gamble anyway, so there you have the solidity of my stance.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4134
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Mike,
No need for gambling.
There are enough factual indications surrounding her murder implying that one should keep an open mind to other possibilities than the Ripper. Domestic murders were more common at the time than the statistics reveal (which I think is AP:s point - not to prove anything), and throat cutting was a more common way to kill someone among 'ordinary' people as opposed to professional killers than it is today.
Regardless if one thinks Stride's death is a too big coincidence or not - seen in the context of the Eddowes murder 45 minutes later - is up to everyone's preferences, but personally I think not, and I certainly have seen stranger coincidences. If Eddowes hadn't been killed 45 minutes later, Stride probably never would have been discussed as a canonical victim anyway.
I am more than willing to accept the possibility that Stride might have been a Ripper killing, but not on the stupid 'odds' argument.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2668
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:12 pm: |
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Yes Glenn, you read me right.
The problem with such a search is not a question of odds, whims, or exceptional circumstance, von Zippo, but rather that a good half of all court and trial reports on such incidents do not give the date of the offence, so one has to do some maths... which I ain't no good at.
As a for instance, take the killing of Mary Ann Nicholls on the 31st August, then I have a James Fellows of Commercial Road who was in court on the 4th September for stabbing his wife on the previous Sunday, early in the morning.
I don't have a time, and I don't have a date.
That is the problem.
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 553
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
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"If Eddowes hadn't been killed 45 minutes later, Stride probably never would have been discussed as a canonical victim anyway. "
I can't imagine that Stride wouldn't be argued over irrespective of Eddowes. If people debate Tabram, they'd be debating Stride.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4135
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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"I can't imagine that Stride wouldn't be argued over irrespective of Eddowes."
Over what? A throat cut and the fact that she was an occasional prostitute?
She probably wouldn't have been more canonical than Coles or McKenzie.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 14, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 554
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:41 pm: |
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"Over what? A throat cut and the fact that she was an occasional prostitute? "
Gee, whattaya think ?
And define occasional: if she was working as a whore that night, it wouldn't matter if she was hardcore or even a first timer.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4136
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:54 pm: |
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"Gee, whattaya think ?"
I think you missed my whole point.
If that was the case, then we would have loads of canonical Ripper victims. Throat cuts were not uncommon and it can't be said often enough. Not to mention the large population of prostitutes, full time or occasional.
Although some believe them to be Ripper victims, I haven't seen Coles or McKenzie being labeled as canonicals. And if Eddowes hadn't been killed 45 minutes after, I can't see why Stride - who only had a throat cut, not as deep as the others, should have been considered a canonical today or unanimously even in 1888.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 14, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 555
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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I didn't miss your point; you said that if not for Eddowes, Stride wouldn't even be debated. That's absurd to contend.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4138
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
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No, I said "...Stride probably never would have been discussed as a canonical victim anyway." It was throat cut killing - period. We have no evidence indicating that it was more than that - only the coincidence with Eddowes murder really makes it interesting for the Ripper context. To state anything else is absurd.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 152
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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Wait a sec! The police thought there was enough reason to believe she was a victim. That's enough for me to go in that direction. That's all. I can't say that she was a Ripper victim for sure. Neither can anyone say she wasn't and I think that's where the burden of proof lies.
AP, if you are researching other throatcuttings, will you be able to find the times they were committed, or is that next to impossible?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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Those who have argued for Kidney being Stride's killer site the police being overworked and their fixation on the double event as being Jack's work. Add in a bit of incompetence by the police and Kidney gets lost in the shuffle. He is never really considered a serious suspect and is not thoroughly investigated. OK, I can buy that but what about after Mary Kelly's death when the murders have stopped and some time has passed? Would the double event have been reexamined just as we are doing now? If so, do you think they would have taken a second look at Kidney? Just a thought. |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1515
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Mike
I can't say that she was a Ripper victim for sure. Neither can anyone say she wasn't and I think that's where the burden of proof lies.
In that case, surely it lies with anyone making a positive statement either way. It seems to me you are acknowledging we don't know definitely whether she was a Ripper victim or not.
Chris Phillips
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David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Hi Glenn,
Besides having her throat cut, Stride was a prostitute killed apparently in the line of duty during the Autumn of 1888 by some unknown person, killed in the open and left where she lay. That's a good reason to wonder about her. The apparent silence the murder was carried out in (from the point of view of the Socialists' Club, not Schwartz) is reminiscent of the Mitre Square murder. The differences in the Stride killing fall into line with the idea the killer was disturbed by Diemschutz. But that's not enough; equally plausible to me is the idea that she was not a Ripper victim.
I still can't make up my mind. For me, there's not enough evidence to be sure either way.
Dave |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 153
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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Chris,
That's fair to say, however status quo has always been Stride was a victim. Shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who disagree?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4139
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Mike,
"That's fair to say, however status quo has always been Stride was a victim. Shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who disagree?"
That is a strange thing to say. What is there saying that the initial thoughts of Stride as a Ripper victim are more correct, and that that wouldn't require an equal burden of proof?
The views of the police and the press of 1888? I am sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.
There has been several myths connected with the case based on early research and questionable interpretation of the evidence, that has been cemented as standard views, but have later turned out to be wrong or less likely. With your reasoning that would mean that 'accepted views' shouldn't be challenged.
I may not have been involved in the case that long compared to many authorities of the case, but I've been there long enough in order to find that point of view tedious, if not directly dangerous and deceitful.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4140
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
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c.d.,
An interesting point of view, and I can only ask myself the same questions. Fact remains, that Kidney never seems to have been questioned or seen as a suspect, in spite of his police record and history of abuse - not to mention his arrogant and spiteful behaviour at the inquest - and apparently he wasn't followed up later on either.
One can only ask why, but to me it is obvious that the police made a number of mistake that not only can be blamed upon their lack of scientific investigative tools but also concerned a general lack of handling some rather basic police procedures, a flaw that many other police forces in Europe shared with them at the time.
Your guess is as good as mine, and I can only say that you are not the only one who would like the answers to those questions.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 14, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4141
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Hi Dave,
True, but still Coles and McKenzie has never been treated with the same canonical status, although they were killed under similar circumstances, were prostitutes and let's not forget that McKenzie's wounds were at least closer to the Ripper victims, while Stride 'only' had a throat cut. Although the police already from the start seems to have been mindset about Stride as a Ripper victim, one can only conclude that it was the 'coincidence' with the Eddowes murder that forever cemented her her canonical status. To me at least, if it hadn't been for this 'coincidence', the Stride killing bear many hallmarks of a domestic-related dispute, although I can't prove it and we will never know either way.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1516
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Mike
That's fair to say, however status quo has always been Stride was a victim. Shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who disagree?
No, I don't think so. The status quo is often insupportable.
Chris Phillips
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 556
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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I certainly don't pretend to know if Stride was a Ripper victim.
AP has indeed done a masterful job of showing us all how commonplace violence was back in the time of the Terror, and I certainly agree throat cutting was a more favored leisure activity that we perhaps all thought a few years ago.
The issue, however, is how common it was to cut the throats of complete strangers.
I am always good at proposing work for others, and it strikes me that what we could really use is an Excel spread sheet showing all the crimes of violence that have been posted here, chronological order, the weapon of choice, fatality etc etc. There is no question that there is a lot that has been posted, but it is disorganized....just like Jack, perhaps.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 447
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
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Hi all,
The people who were there on the ground and at the time were in a far better position to know than we are here today and most of them thought Stride was a victim of JTR. I'm more likely to defer to them than a bunch going on second, third, fourth...........&.hand information.
And if we're going to throw out 'stupid odds arguments', then we can't say that Chapman and Eddowes were killed by the same person either.
Goodies,
Stan |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
|
Chris,
Don't people who see the Loch Ness Monster have the burden of proof? I don't believe in it, yet in Scotland there are many who will swear that he exists. Indeed my idiot brother asked many people, and they believed it, maybe a dozen of them. This is the same argument you're using. The burden is on those who theorize. That's all I'm saying.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
|
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 155
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
|
Glenn,
"With your reasoning that would mean that 'accepted views' shouldn't be challenged....that point of view tedious, if not directly dangerous and deceitful."
Challenge away. Until there's hard evidence I've got to stick with those who were in the know. If you want to say that my opinion is tedious and deceitful, go right ahead Mr. Excitement, or is it Mr. Honesty?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
|
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1051
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,
"We will never know either way." So true, unless some missing record turns up. I would say that the Stride killing is unlike a lot of domestic killings (which are often crimes of passion) that I've read about, in that Stride was not killed in a domestic setting (the home) and there was no anguished boyfriend/husband expressing regret. I am thinking of the first incident of the Triple Event that night, the domestic killing. Of the other two murder scenes that night, Berner Street is more similar to Mitre Square.
On the other hand, not having particularly studied domestic violence, I'm sure there are cases where a lover has cut his mate's throat in a fit of passion and kept completely quiet about it.
Kidney, that lover of discipline, seems odd all right, but I'm not sure we're in a position to conclude that the police were so inept that they failed to confirm the whereabouts of Stride's boyfriend, the last person to see her alive. We just don't have all the information.
We get just enough evidence to think we know, don't we? It's maddening.
Dave
Mr. Excitement. . .I like your new nickname, Glenn 
(Message edited by oberlin on October 14, 2005) |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4142
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
|
Mike,
Since there are no evidence either way - only facts that may indicate suspicions in other directions - there is no reason NOT to challenge old views. Just because they are old or 'generally accepted' doesn't mean that they are right. Just think about how much has happened the last ten years in Ripperology.
Hi Dave,
There exists a lot of domestic crimes involving throat cuts. The outdoor thing is not important; it is a common misconception that a domestic crime has to be perpetrated indoors at home. A crime can be considered domestic if it has domestic motives, where the killer is known to the victim, for example the husband. Stride was killed because she was outside for some reasons (regardless if it was the Ripper, a drunken client or someone she knew) and we know she had left Kidney some time prior to this incident - one of the most common reasons for domestic-related murder there exists.
"I'm not sure we're in a position to conclude that the police were so inept that they failed to confirm the whereabouts of Stride's boyfriend, the last person to see her alive. We just don't have all the information."
That is certainly not necessarily true. The reports to the Home Office are all pretty much complete, and every thing or suspect of interest should have been mentioned there - or at least a suspicion. But Kidney is only referred to as an ordinary witness. We miss the police officers' personal notes and the original statements, but any suspicions regarding Kidney should have been in the filed reports. Others are. Even Barnett is being referred to as being 'interrogated' - but not Kidney.
Excitement... it depends on what I am excited about.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 14, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
|
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 798
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:11 pm: |
|
I've never been much of a fan of tennis!
Back and forth and back and forth....
Seriously, chaps, is this thread going anywhere?
I've not read anything on here which has given me anything useful one way or the other. It is virtually all subjective opinion based on the surviving evidence.
I know what I think and you pays yer money and takes yer choice, so I'm not going to get drawn in.
A question, though - I heard recently somewhere that murder was actually far, far more rare than people have suggested in the East End and knife murders were rarer still, in spite of violent death being a common facet of life.
I can't remember where it was though! AP - what with ye being the man in the know on this one - can you elucidate further?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:14 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,
What you say about domestic murders sounds pretty sensible. I still can't make up my mind.
Have a splendid weekend, Mr. Excitement!
Cheers,
Dave |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4143
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:27 pm: |
|
Hutch,
What you say you've heard about spectacular knife murders being rare in East End is an old erronous myth that some researchers stated 15 years ago and which have lingered on. Even in the new Richard Jones doccy they continue to make this error.
Simple research through newspapers show that this is totally incorrect, and that most of them don't show up in the statistics. Those who said that only checked the statistical records but never bothered to check the papers.
"Back and forth and back and forth....
Seriously, chaps, is this thread going anywhere?"
Erm... have you heard about the word 'debate', old chap? Debate is oral tennis.
You didn't actually think that some information should be revealed here that solved the case? I gave that up years ago.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 14, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
|
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4144
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
|
David,
"I still can't make up my mind."
Neither can I, believe me.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 14, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
|
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 800
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn, me old Euro-sceptic.
It's almost certainly on Richard's DVD I heard the error recently about knife attacks being rare. However - genuine question - I wonder how he came up with actual numbers for each year rather than a blanket assertion if this is indeed untrue?
In regards to the 'debate' - of course debate is what it's all about, but I'm basically seeing a series of "Yes she is", "No she isn't". It's not that simple, of course, but everyone is saying the same thing each time.
It must just be me - I would have given up long ago!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4145
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Philip - you are not me.
You have eBay.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
|
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 189
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:03 am: |
|
Whether or not Stride was a victim of the Ripper,(I think she was),perhaps a reading of the autopsy report by Dr Phillips might help decide.
Phillips reports that over both shoulders,especially the right,and under the collar-bone and in frontof the chest there was a blueish discoulouration.He adds,referring to these marks,"Which I have watched and have seen on two occasions since".
So was she at least a victim of a killer who left identical marks on his victims?The 'since' seems a little deceptive if he is writing of victims of the Ripper,yet being as he was the police surgeon and deeply involved with the case,perhaps he was referring to two of the other three victims,believed to be Ripper killings.
Phillips conducted the autopsy at 3 p.m.the day she was killed.As the police had by this time interviewed Schwartz,could their interpretation of an assault by the drunk be premature.Phillips himself was of a mind that there was abraisons,which when the body was cleaned he determined was not so.In fact if one reads his report closely,it would be hard to establish that any assault,except the one that killed her,ever took place. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 452
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
|
Hi all,
Saying that Stride and Eddowes were murdered by two different killers is like saying that two separate groups of hijackers, unknown to each other, each decided to fly planes into The World Trade Center on the same morning in September of 2001. Sure it's possible but......
Best wishes,
Stan |
|
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