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Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:32 am: | 
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I have introduced this new thread/discussion on the possibility that the first attack by Jack The Ripper was not on Mary Ann Nichols as previously believed, but on Annie Millwood. Previous postings on this topic have rather quickly tended to drift away from the subject in hand and onto alternative topics. A few brief details first: Annie Millwood was 38 years old at the time of her death, and a widow of Soldier, Richard Millwood. She lived at a common lodging house - 8 White's Row, Spitalfields. At around 5 p.m. Saturday 25 February 1888, she was admitted to the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary suffering from 'stabs'. She had been repeatedly stabbed in her legs and lower parts of her body (the exact number of wounds is unknown) by a man she told the police she did not know, who drew a clasp knife from his pocket. There were no witnesses to the attack and no known description of her assailant. The exact location of the incident is also unknown. There was an ally used as a short cut to Butler Street, and it remains a possibility that this is where the attack occurred. Despite the 'Eastern Post'having described Millwood as 'the deceased' she in fact recovered from her injuries, and on 21 March was discharged to the South Grove Workhouse, Mile End Road. Ten days later, on 31 March 1888, while at the rear of the building, she suddenly collapsed and died. Dr. Wheeler, of Mile End Road, was summoned and at once pronounced life extinct. The Master of the Baker's Row Infirmary, Thomas Badcock, said of Millwood, 'She never complained of feeling unwell, but on the other hand she seemed always in high spirits. The inquest into her death was held 5 April 1888 before Coroner Wynn Edwin Baxter. A verdict was returned stating that Annie had died as a result of natural causes, and was unrelated to the vicious assault upon her a month previous. Her death was attributed to a sudden effusion into the pericardium from the rupture of the left pulmonary artery through ulceration. - Reasons for suspecting that Annie Millwood was an early Jack The Ripper attack? Millwood was not in a known occupation, so may have been a prostitute. Her age, 38, was close to the age of the other Ripper victims, and alleged Ripper victims, Nichols, Chapman, Eddows, Stride and Tabram. White's Row was situated only a few yards from Dorset Street where Mary Kelly was later murdered. And close to George Yard where Martha Tabram was murdered. The date of the attack 25 February (there are only 28 days in February) fitted the pattern of the Ripper attacks occurring either at the beginning of the month 7th Tabram, 9th Kelly, 8th Chapman, or the end of the month, 25th Millwood, 30th Stride, 30th Eddowes, 31st Nichols. The attack also fitted the pattern of occurring on a weekend. The attack on Annie was serious enough to warrant her having to spend ten days in hospital, and the area of the body targeted was sexual in nature. Reasons for dismissing Millwood as a Ripper victim: The time she was attacked appears to have been a lot earlier than subsequent Ripper attacks. Millwood was admitted to the Infirmary at 5p.m. though exactly when the attack occurred is unknown. Sunset was around 4.20 p.m. during the winter months of 1888 so therefore by 5 p.m. the light would have almost faded. In conclusion: I believe that Annie Millwood was the first, if rather clumsy attack, by the person who later came to be known as Jack The Ripper. |
Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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Another problem with considering her a Ripper victim (and this has more to do with how we see the case today) is that her attack took place in March and leaves a gap, this is a stumbling block considering the Ripper's canonical victims were murderered within a relatively small period of time. |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:20 am: |
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Hi Christopher, Annie Millwood was actually attacked in February, and died from natural causes in March. As for the time gap, if my memory serves me right, Peter Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ripper attempted a rather clumsy attack upon a woman in 1969 using a snooker ball inside a sock. His next attack was almost six years later, and by this time he had chosen the murder weapon more effectively. Echoes of Jack the Ripper?. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4107
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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Hi Mr Morley (there are two Christophers on this thread),
The idea that Annie Millwood might have been victim of an early Ripper attack, is by no means new or extraordinary. Nor especially controversial.
I personally doubt that she was, but I can't rule it out and those well known arguments that you present in favour of her inclusion, are all very good and seems to have everything going for them. I see no problem with them as such and it all works from a rational point of view.
Then again, we will never know, will we? She just as well could have fallen victim of another crude attack. Just look at Emma Smith (unless one considers her to be a Ripper victim as well). Considering the nature of the area, its poverty and alcohol consumption, not to mention the row of crimes that produces in turn, we can't totally exclude that there were other murderous people about.
So your guess is as good as mine. I prefer to sit on the fence on that one, but I certainly don't rule her out completely. All we can do is speculate.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 04, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 286
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 12:00 pm: |
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Chris,
That was a good summary of the case with Millwood. I tend to agree with your assessment, and think that she was quite possibly an early victim of the Ripper. I also agree with your suggestion that this was an early attempt by an inexperienced Ripper, what Peter Vronsky referred to as the killer taking his fantasy "out for a walk" or a "test drive". Often in this sort of scenario the killer will bring either no weapon, or an inappropriate weapon. But it is interesting to note that in both Milwood and Tabram attacks, the weapon was a clasp knife (although in the Tabram attack, there was an additional weapon, presumably some sort of dagger).
By the way, what evidence is there that the attack may have occurred in the alley off Butler Street? (see map at: http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/map/images/dorset.gif)
Rob H
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Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 30
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 12:48 pm: |
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Hi Glen, Nowhere did I claim the idea of Millwood been a Ripper attack as new or especially extraordinary. My point was that when it has been discussed as a topic before, it tends to rather quickly drift away from the subject and onto the Goulston Street graffiti, the Kelly murder or some such topic. My aim was not to be controversial, as you say. I simply wanted to explore the possibility that an earlier Ripper attack than Nichols may just possibly point us in the direction of some new leads/clues, and alternative avenues to explore. I have personally decided not to sit on the fence on this one and have stated I believe Millwood was an Early Ripper attack. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4109
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:18 pm: |
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Hi Morley,
Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to say that you claimed to be controversial -- only that it has all been said before. Of course that doesn't mean that it isn't worth exploring anew now and then, but if it has drifted into other directions on other occasions, the reason for this has probably been that there simply hasen't been more to say about it.
The information we have about those early cases are not particularly extensive and indeed very sparse except for what we can find in the papers and tabloids, which is why we in the end only can speculate about such ideas and not really come to a clear conclusion one or the other.
If you decide not to sit on the fence about it, that's fine, but as far as I am concerned the facts really doesn't convince me enough in order to not keep an open mind to other possibilities. I certainly don't believe the Ripper was responsible for every knife attack on women in East End in 1888.
As I said, though, the arguments you present in favour of it are all very good and well expressed, but it all comes down to personal interpretation of the evidence and personally I can't say that the indications are strong enough in order to take a firm stand on the matter. I definitely can't rule her out as an early Ripper attack, but I can also see that there may be other explanations.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 04, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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Hello Robert, Great minds think alike? Leaving the topic for a moment, could I have your permission to include the suspect Thomas Murray, whom I believe you discovered while doing some research, in my new book Jack the Ripper A Suspect Guide, which will feature on the casebook within a couple of weeks for those interested to read or download for free. It covers as many people as I could find who were suspected of having committed the Whitechapel murders, however ludicrous the suggestion or slight the suspicion. Over 200 names are included. Back to your question. There is no evidence that the attack actually occurred in an alley in Butler Street, though I recall reading a report in one of the newspapers that mentioned that the locals used the alley as a shortcut, and suggested it may have occurred there. |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 287
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
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Chris,
Sure go ahead and include Thomas Murray. I would file that one more under the heading of just the phrase "Jack the Ripper" entering into common slang usage, almost like someone saying "he went postal". The guy was apparently violent and unstable, and as a result was taunted by the kids in the neighborhood.
Regarding the Butler Street alley... do you remember where you read this account. Are there any newspaper accounts of the Millwood attack?
Rob H |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 32
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
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Robert, Thank you for allowing me to include Murray, I'll give you full credit. I recall reading somewhere that there was an alley to the right of White's Row that some of the locals used as a short cut, though I'm am unable to be exact as none of my maps are very detailed. I was actually pondering exactly where the attack on Millwood took place, as the newspaper reports at the time were very vague and offer us little detail. Unfortunately due too old age, I cannot remember where I originally saw the article. I agree, the use of a clasp knife is interesting, co-incidently a clasp knife was also used on Ada Wilson, though I have my doubt's that she was a Ripper attack. |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 166
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Christopher J. Morley,
I am inclined to consider Annie Millwood as an early ripper victim as well.I would also include Alice McKenzie, possibly Tabram & Frances Coles.
Just possibles of course, Elizabeth Stride has me totally undecided.
Emma Smith was a different case,in my opinion since she described 3 attackers and from what most authors and researchers surmise she was a victim of one of the many gangs roaming the area robbing and assaulting prostitutes as well as many other folks no doubt.
regards
Julie
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 433
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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Hi all,
As has been implyed before, I find it more likely that Millwood was a victim of the same person who attacked Tabram than JTR. Of course, we can run up a big tally by racking them all up on the list.
I also find it extremely unlikely that she just happened to die a short time after the attack for some other reason. Stab wounds can cause clots and blood infections that may not kill in a day or two so I'd consider her a probable murder victim.
Best regards,
Stan |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 167
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Christopher J Morley
I am looking forward to reading your suspect list (book)
I hope you send us a reminder when it has been posted .
regards
Julie
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 821
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Chris - I've always considered Annie Millwood as a very likely first victim. It is quite common for there to be a long gap between first and second victims. I have put forward the hypothesis many times that the Ripper may have been surprised by his own ferocity and been afraid of apprehension by the police. It thus took several months before he both came to terms with what he had done and realised that he had got away with it, and the urge to repeat the act began to build again.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me" - Hunter S. Thompson (1939-2005)
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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Hi Julie, I agree with you on Tabram and Smith. Stride has also left me undecided, although I have serious doubts that she was a Ripper victim. I have endeavoured to offer an explanation as to her likely murderer in my new book, which will be posted when Stephen Ryder returns from his vacation. |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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Alan, I could not agree with you more, the time gap between Millwood and Tabram is not uncommon for a serial killer, which is why Millwood should not be ruled out as a Ripper attack. I also found your Hunter S Thompson quote highly amusing. |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 170
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:06 pm: |
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Christopher Morley
Hi Chris,
I agree again re time lapses, I hate going back and repeating what I have said before however the BTK murderer is an excellent example of this very topic.
regards
Julie
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1916
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 5:59 am: |
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Guys,
Re time difference.
Just throwing Pitchfork into the equation.
Even more relevant when you consider that there was a considerable time difference between his first and second (and incidently final) murder.
Cheers,
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 231
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 7:26 am: |
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Hi everyone
Glad to see people considering Annie Millwood.
For me the attacks on Millwood and Wilson are by far the most interesting. Thats because it gives us a ripper that is evolving, learning as he goes by experience of what does and does not work.
It means he made mistakes early on when noone was paying particular notice, I beleive he walked the streets and watched for some time.
But the Clarsp knife is interesting as it gives us a link to Tabram. Tabram being one of the hottest debates (HI Glenn) on casebook. In particular the development of the attack from Millwood to Wilson to Tabram and Nichols. I think looking at these four give you a better idea of development than the canon 5.
Butler Street is interesting as it puts us in the heart of Ripper territory whites Row , Georges yard etc.
Its Wilson's attack further towards Mile End that seems a little way off manor, 19 maidman Street, although it ties with Bucks Row. Someone on these boards gave an excellent account of why he beleived 'Old Montigue Street' was Jacks prefered route of escape and interestingly enough it seems to come out near Butler street but cant make out exactly where from Roberts map...perhaps Thawl street, judging by a modern map access would have been differant.
But having walked the area a number of times I'd say Old Montgue street is the connecting key. Stride being most off manor.
Jeff |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 8:13 am: |
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Hello everyone, Jeff, The reason I introduced the thread regarding Millwood was that I felt, despite not much been actually known about her (the newspaper coverage was sparse to say the least) that maybe, just maybe, we may unearth something from the attack that has been until now overlooked. The possibility that she was the Ripper's first attack opens up possible new areas of research, and new theories to be tossed around. I agree with you that the Ripper was evolving, perfecting his technique, so to speak. Your quite correct in suggesting that, Wilson and Stride do appear a little 'off manor' as you say. The clasp knife remains a possible link from Millwood through too Tabram to explore. Unfortunately, in the Millwood attack we have no known witnesses, no description by Millwood of her attacker, and no exact location of where the attack occurred. I have been scanning the 1891 census for White's Row, though nothing has intrigued my eye yet. Co-incidently, 8 White's Row was where Francis Coles and Thomas Sadler where lodging on the night she was murdered. |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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A quick thought, Although 35 Dorset Street is often cited as having some connection between the victims, it would be interesting if the connection was actually 8 White's Row. The first? victim, Millwood, lodged there, and the last? victim, Coles, also lodged there. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1919
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 8:28 am: |
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Hey Jeff,
Side issue, watched your programme again last night. Ive really enjoyed the series. Keeps me up too late though.
And Old Monty Street....thats been a long time thought of mine.
Cheers,
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4113
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 8:34 am: |
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"Tabram being one of the hottest debates (HI Glenn) on casebook."
Hee hee... don't make me go there (Hi Jeff!)...
As for Coles, I'd say it's quite likely that Sadler was her killer, although that never can be fully proven. Can't see any evident reason for considering her a Ripper victim. Her throat was cut and she was a prostitute, that's all.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 05, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 234
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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A ha
Always good when I agree with Glenn. For me Kelly was the last victim not Coles. The only victim after Kelly of interest is Alice McKenzie and after long thought I've ticked her off as 'Copycat'.
Hi Monty glad your enjoying the show. I'm currently stuck in edit working on a two hour special on Guy Fawkes, hope you watch NOv 5th.
I thought it was you with the 'Old Montigue Street' theory, it sort of fits with Butler Street don't you think?
Anyway I'm not adding to this thread. As Christopher was saying its about extra info on the Millwood murder. The only way your going to turn that up is if anyone has missed anything in the news paper archives, I gather there's alot of them to sift through.
I certainly feel that finding out more information about Millwoods attack could be useful. Certainly if I ever got a chance to make a Ripper programme thats where I would want to start. Millwood.
Good Luck
Jeff
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2485
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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I am unpersuaded about Frances Coles.I recently looked up the situation vis a vis Sadler and noticed that Paul Begg"s most recent ruminations in "The Facts" read,"....0n March 2nd Sadler left the Thames Police Court to welcoming cheers from the public,who had shrewdly judged that the police were trying to "fit him up".[Begg goes on to say he nevertheless thinks the police seemed to genuinely have thought he was the murderer etc].
But I myself am more persuaded by Coles"s friend and fellow prostitute,Ellen Callagher,who warned her to give a wide berth to a man nearby whom she knew to be violent.Coles ignored the warning,propositioned the man and went off with him.[this man was certainly not Sadler who also was according to several witnesses in several brawls at this time on that night and when arrested possessed only an extremely blunt knife and was incapably drunk.All charges were subsequently dropped.
Just as importantly when PC Ernest Thompson,a new recruit was approaching Swallow Gardens,where he found Frances Coles she was still alive,with blood pouring from her throat, Thompson heard footsteps but could not give chase because she was still alive-regulations were that he stayed with her---- and he was known thereafter as the man who let the Ripper escape!
Well, whether the man was the Ripper or not is certainly open to question ---but, from this account anyway,it would seem that the killer almost certainly would have heard PC Thompson"s footsteps approaching and have had to make a quick escape-so possibly he WOULD have mutilated her had he not been thus disturbed by a policeman on his beat.
Natalie
Jeff,I didnt have access to that channel -would have watched it with great interest had I done.Hope its repeated sometime! |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 808
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 8:08 am: |
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Not too long ago AP Wolf did a count of Whitechapel murders for 1887, 1888. We were all concerned about whether the canonical 5 made a blip in the numbers. I don't think anybody thought of the questionable ones, but they must have been included in her numbers. Maybe we need to take another look at those figures. |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
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Hello Robert W House, I have been looking on a 1799 street index and have found Butler's Passage-Butler Street and Butler's Alley. Do you have any info on these?. |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 3:40 pm: |
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Hello everyone, Which pub was possibly Annie Millwood's local? The Paul's Head, 1 Crispin Street, who's landlord, in 1888, was Abraham Cohen, appears to be the nearest. Any other public houses close to White's Row?. I am trying to establish where she was going too, or had come back from, when she was attacked. She was unlikely to have been coming back from soliciting at that hour of the day, and we know that she was without employment. Therefore, may have just popped into her local for a few pints of four ale. |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 241
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 7:58 am: |
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Hi again everyone
I was just thinking about the estimated time of Annie Milwoods attack. 5.00pm seems very early for the Ripper.
Ada Wilson was attacked just after Midnight, as was Stride. Tabram, Eddows early hours, Nichols approx 3.45 and Kelly and Chapman early hours of the morning.
If Annie had taken a little time to raise the Alarm her attack could have been mid-afternoon somewhat out of the Rippers usual prowling hours dont you think?
Just a thought Jeff |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 374
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
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If you look at the attacks on Milwood and Wilson as being the Rippers learning curve it makes a lot of sense.
Sutcliffe started by attacking young girls in broad daylight but found it was too easy to be spotted and so later switched the times of his attacks to much later.
It is very rare for a killers first attacks to be the same as the last. |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 3:06 pm: |
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Hello Bob, Serial killers first or early attacks are usually rather clumsy, and often ill thought out. The risk of detection, due to inexperience/nerves/poor planning, at this point are usually quite high. If Ada Wilson was an early Ripper attack, then her assailant, through his inexperience, actually came quite close too being apprehended. A good description was furnished of him, and if it was the Ripper, was probably more reliable than the later descriptions given of him from unreliable witnesses, at night and under poor lighting conditions. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4130
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 3:51 pm: |
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Fact is, Ada Wilson's description of the man (sunburnt face and fair moustache), as well as his strange psychological behaviour, are two reason for why I have always found him interesting. Ada Wilson's description would of course fit hundreds of men in East End at the time and we don't even know if the other men that was seen really was the Ripper, but there is something about this man that makes my warning bells ring and his behaviour does fit the style of early serial killer behaviour.
It is also interesting that the motive seems to have been robbery, since that as well is corroborative with some early attempts, and we must not forget that the victims of Jack the Ripper were found with no money on them; even if they didn't have any money on them to begin with I don't think we can rule out that he might have given them money in advance and then took it back after the deed.Personally, I find this man very interesting; damn it if I can say why - call it a hunch....
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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I agree with you Glen, the man who attacked Ada Wilson does get my 'bells ringing' as well. Wilson cannot be ruled out as a possible Ripper attack, simply because the motive appeared to be robbery. The Zodiac Killer, at Lake Berryessa for example, attempted too reassure his victims that he was merely robbing them, before going on to kill them. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1932
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:51 am: |
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Glenn, Chris, Bob,
What can I say except Im in agreement.
It’s a distinctive description and similar to the man seen with Kelly.
My main concern is the MO and signature.
Whilst MO remains roughly the same throughout this series they can alter and develop. Sometimes beyond recognition.
Signature rarely changes but in this case the lack of signature indicates, to me anyway, that the killer was disturbed. Now I may be wrong obviously but I would be interested to hear if anyone thinks signature does change and if so why. I mean, does a killer ‘hit the ground running’ and have their signature already, subconsciously. Or does that evolve also, well to a degree.
Hope that makes sense.
Cheers
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2667
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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Yes, I too have my own reasons for a good bet on this man with the sun-tan. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 449
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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HMMmm! Wonder where a chap gets a sunburn in London during March!? Sounds like a sailor to me or some upperclassman just back from holiday in Italy.
Stan |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 799
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Just come onto this thread and phew there's a lot to comment on.
First and foremost...
I had read initially that Millwood opened the door to 8 Whites Row and was greeted by a man with a big grin who just stared at her and then began stabbing her. I have no idea whatsoever where I read this and maybe I have persuaded myself I read it at all; it sounds similar to the first Springheeled Jack attack.
So, to now see it was 5pm at an unknown location (the evidence was always in my books for me to see but I never really needed to) is a revelation to me.
It says in Sugden (p31) that she went to the Whitechapel Infirmary from #8. What is there to say she wasn't attacked at said location? I know she could have come home first, but it strikes me as just as likely as an alleyway we've yet to confirm.
I've scanned some of my many books and can find nothing further beyond Chris's initial summary.
By 1894 there was a big arch opening from Whites Row south into Tenter Street (posted by Rob Clack elsewhere on the boards recently) and a large yard very close to #8. Also I do indeed see the narrow alleyway linking Whites Row to Butler Street, though have we evidence it did actually link the two? It looks to me like it stops in a kind of T-junction behind 2 houses in Whites Row. There also appears to be a possible alleyway almost opposite #8 linking it to Dorset Street.
Remember not only is it fairly close to Millers Court and George Yard Buildings, but also within reach of Castle Alley and Hanbury Street.
I usually consider Millwood to be a first attack myself. And I certainly would be inclined to think Millwoods attacker was Tabram's killer. Believing Tabram to be #1, ergo I would personally think Millwood's attacker would be JTR, but not without question. It's the penknife / clasp knife thing that sways me though.
Certainly the gap in the crimes I find perfectly acceptable at the starting end of the cycle. We all - or should - know on these boards it's usual for the first attack to be filled with a period afterwards of revulsion and fear for the act which may take some time to subside, followed by a second explosion, at which point it then becomes more regular and extreme. Of course it is not a faultless template, but certainly the most frequent of answers.
Jeff - Old Montague Street is not a new theory. I know Fido was saying this at least 10 years ago. I would agree this seems a likely position for a 'base', and then we have all these avenues about Goulston Street and the blood spots.
Nats - I agree about Coles being unlikely. If Sadler was so incapable he could hardly stand, then slashing Coles throat properly - or being able to surprise her with such an attack - seems unlikely. The clincher here is that Thompson heard running footsteps. I think it is fair to say Sadler wouldn't have been able to just run off at speed. I've generally concluded Sadler had the means, the mind and possibly the motive - but not the capability.
Chris - we have several pubs accessible from #8 in 1888, not least of which are The Brittania, The Horn Of Plenty and The Queen's Head. It's difficult to say if someone's 'local' is indeed their closest.
That's my two-penneth (or farthing, if I'm discussing Alice MacKenzie) and it probably helps not a jot.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2498
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 1:41 pm: |
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I more or less go along with Philip"s reasoning re Millwood and Tabram attacks.It came as news to me too that the attack on Annie Millwood apparently took place elsewhere than I had always thought.
Natalie |
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 41
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
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Hello Philip, I have news of a further book you may wish too add to your ever expanding collection - my latest Ripper Book, Jack The Ripper A Suspect Guide (plug-plug, LOL). The book will be available on the casebook as an E-book, for anyone to read or download for free, in a couple of weeks. Talking of ever expanding book collections, since your computer has been behaving itself, I haven't as yet been able to win a single Ripper book on e-bay. I have some very good computer advice for you Philip, this is what you must do. Un-install all your anti-spyware and anti-virus software immediately (LoL). Seriously, there is a new anti-spyware product that I would rate as one of the best I have ever used, it is called 'Spycatcher Express'. It is free and updates regularly which is important, and is available via www.download.com. Now I must get back to the thread I started on Annie Millwood. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 802
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
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Hi Chris
Sorry about that (no, not at all really!). I don't know what your eBay ID is, but no doubt if you told me I would recognise it immediately!
I do, honestly, have limits on how high I will go. I know the value of things and how frequently they turn up and you yourself will know I have never gone to a silly price over anything. Because of all my jobs I have a little more disposable income than many to be able to indulge this hobby, but it is not exactly a collection I keep to myself as everyone on here can testify!
You may be surprised to learn that my PC is FAR from functioning properly. Since the hacker incident 5 months ago it hasn't been the same as the firewall crashed on installation and, I am sure, corrupted Windows when it was uninstalled to be installed again. Pages freeze for up to a minute, entire pages will not download, my server won't send some e-mails, and my browser keeps shutting down and the only way to correct them is entirely rebooting. It has been a right old pain in the botty, but then that is something I have had a lot of in 2005 (maybe I should rephrase that?). Anyway, it looks like in the next week or so my PC will be rebuilt and upgraded to XP so if anything, it is going to get even worse for you!
Thanks for the heads up about the e-book. Will it ever be in real-book?
I know this was off-thread but I'm allowed so there.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 42
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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Hi Philip, A Suspect Guide will only be available as an e-book. I cannot find any reference to the 'grinning man' you mentioned, who knocked at the door and attacked Annie Millwood. It sounds a little like the attack on Ada Wilson. As we know she claimed to have answered a knock at the door, before being attacked. weather he was 'grinning', your guess is as good as mine. |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
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Christopher,
"Any other public houses close to White's Row?"
The Britannia, Queen's Head and the Ten Bells for starters. I did a "DIY" Ripper Tour recently whilst on business in London and was amazed how close together the significant sites (streets, pubs etc) are. White's Row and Dorset St (which ran parallel to each other) are only around 3-4 minutes' walk away from those pubs, and I'd guess that you'd only be 5 or 6 minutes away if you'd started out from George Yard or Hanbury St. Not that I was timing my walk, mind you - but I don't think I'm far wrong.
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Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:49 pm: |
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I've taken a long hard look at Annie & Ada mainly because of Polly Nichols,there was something about Nichols that has always bothered me and I think I know what it is now.
There was something about the position of Nichols body that rang bells,her dress was pulled down.I dont really know how to explain this but it 'feels' like her killer was well,ashamed of what he had done - not sure if ashamed is the right word.I dont think Polly was his first murder but I do think she was his first mutilation,the first time he went 'all the way' as it were.
If you look at later victims he definately becomes bolder with each one,Dresses pushed up and left that way,legs splayed, its not only the extent of the mutilations that increase,it is almost akin to a lover gaining in experience with each new encounter.I think his early encounters may well have been stabbings/slashing that included robbery - the later victims had pockets slashed and searched with the killer leaving sundry items by the bodies,he never completely forgets his 'roots'.
I'm not sure he would have stopped after Kelly but I do think he had gone as far as he could, any later attacks could well have been infused with the memory of Mary Kelly and as a consequence,much less ferocious.
AP Wolf has turned up quite a few possibilities too but it was the way Polly was found that really made me think,Polly was the end of his 'apprentiship'. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2692
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
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Steve
very naughty with the 'legs splayed'.
You better than anyone here should known that when a person has their throat cut then it is perfectly normal for their legs to splay out in what many might see as a 'display'.
I have posted numerous examples on this site. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 962
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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Hi Steve,
Actually, Nichols was found with her dress pulled up. When Cross and Paul left the body to go find a policeman, they pulled the dress down for her modesty sake.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Steve Swift
Police Constable
Username: Swift
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 7:36 pm: |
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I admit I'm a bad man AP  You are correct, but I dont think that was the case with these killings,certainly Mary Kelly was 'displayed' because she was moved to a more central position on the bed AFTER she died.
Yes Dan but....Pollys dress was only just up above her knees.
Be bad! 
Steve.
'A good plan violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan executed next week' - George S. Patton
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