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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2528
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 4:25 pm: | 
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I found this attack on a woman from 1834 very compelling for a number of reasons; the manner in which the woman's hanky was used as a means of controlling her, and - if required - to strangle her; and then the quickness of the attack, how simple restraint in a simple robbery quickly led to a violent assault, which if the men had been armed with knives could have been so much worse.
The woman produced her bloody apron and hanky at the police court later as evidence.
'MARGARET McNIELL . I am the wife of James McNiell, and live at No. 2, Spicer-street, Brick-lane. I have lived there a fortnight - I formerly lived in Bennett's-court - on the 6th of March, I was coming home; as I turned down Carter-street, the clock struck three quarters after eight o'clock - I was going home to Bennett's-court, Great George-street - I had not got half way down the street, where there is a small court, and I was surrounded by three men; one took hold of my right, hand, another put his arm round my waist, and pressed my chest - the prisoner was in front of me, and untied the double knot of a cotton handkerchief round my throat - it was tied loosely in a double knot - he untied that, and tied it singly as tight as he possibly could round my throat - while he was doing that, I put my hand into his collar, and said, "Watkins, do not hurt me," and in an instant I saw the bag my money was in his hand - it had been in my pocket - he put my money into his waistcoat-pocket, and threw the bag into the gutter - I do not know how he got it into his hand; but I saw it in his hand, and he threw the bag down - I only had the use of one hand, and I collared him with it - and to make me loose my hold of him, he tore the flesh from the back of my hand; the marks are on my hand still - finding I would not let him go, (my gown opened in front,) he thrust his hand into that, and tore that as well - I then let him go, from the suffocation of the handkerchief round my throat, and the pain in my bosom, where he tore the skin and flesh from me - it was here and there as if a cat had clawed me - I went to untie my handkerchief, and found something coming from my ear, and found it was blood - and instead of untying my handkerchief, I untied my bonnet - he struck me a blow on the top of my head, which I shall feel as long as I live, and my nose then spirted out bleeding - he then said to his two palls, who were with him,"By God, I have done for her" - and they said at the same instant, "Never mind, Tom, we'll swear;" and what the end of it was I do not know, but they said something about the end of the town - he took the handkerchief from my throat, and with the assistance of the other two, went to throw me into the passage; but I did not fall; it was a small passage in Carter-street - I saw no more of them after that, they all left me - the blood came from my nose in such torrents, and I was so injured with the blow, it was as much as I could do to stand with my back against the wall - it was all done in as little time as three minutes.'
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2533
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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There is much to learn in this attack upon a woman in 1791:
'he followed her, and instantly rushed upon her; he got her down on the floor, and made a stab at her with the knife, but meeting the resistance of her stays, the knife broke; he left her, and went into the shop a second time, and returned with another knife, indeed a most deadly instrument; the woman, then on the floor, was calling murder! nobody came to her on the instant, so that the savage had got her the second time, kneeling upon her, and stabbing her in several different places; she attempting to make all the resistance she could, putting her hands to the place where she received the wound,
her hands of course became cut, as well as several other parts of her body: at length the cries of the woman drew the attention of the neighbours; several people came round; and it will be proved, that he was seen in such a situation, so using the knife; and the immediate, the inevitable impression on your minds must be, that at that time he was in the perpetration of this murder;
ELIZABETH SPENCER sworn.
Mr. Fielding. Where do you live? - No. 14, Strutton-Ground, Westminster.
Do you live near the shop that was kept by the prisoner at the bar? - Next door to it.
He kept a pork-shop there? - Yes.
On the 16th of August, about noon, did you observe any thing that took place in the shop of the prisoner? - Yes.
Tell your own story, and let my Lord and these gentlemen hear you. - It was on a Tuesday, between the hours of twelve and one; I was sitting in our back parlour, and we heard a rumbling, and then something which fell with a considerable weight, which shook the room where I and Mrs. Gardner were; I was desired by her to go to the door; I went, and I saw many people standing round the door of the prisoner; I went into his house, and went half way up the passage from the street-door; the left hand is the shop; and I heard the cry of murder! very loudly, by a woman; I only heard it once; I went back to my own door, and Mrs. Gardner desired me to go a second time, and I met a woman who lodges in the house, I do not know her name; she took me by the left arm, and pushed me into the back parlour, where the prisoner was, and his wife; the fire-place was facing the door; the woman lay on the floor, on her right side, with her face towards the fire-place; the prisoner was kneeling on her left side with both his knees, between the arm-pit and hip; she was struggling, with both her arms up; she had no cap on, and he had hold of her neck-handkerchief with his left hand, and in his right he had something which appeared like a knife, striking at her with it; it appeared like a knife by the handle, I did not see the blade.
In what manner was he using his hand? - I saw him use his hands once like a back stroke towards her throat, as it appeared to me; then I put my hands together, and ran out.' |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
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You know something AP, I've always felt that JTR started out doing this or something like it, developing a 'taste' for it and then taking it further on his own as his fantasies grew. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 371
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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Careful there Steve or we might agree on something.
Stan |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 300
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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Hmmm...
I agree with Steve here.
And yet so different from the later predominantly stealthy Jack as possible, IMO.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 7:40 pm: |
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I think it would be intersting to know how many cases we're brought before the magistrate and dropped because the victim either preffered to drop charges or didnt bother to turn up in court.
That kind of thing is still a problem today, so I can imagine it was much worse in the 1800's when women were still reguarded as property or second class citizens.
Florence Maybricks trial is a good example of the attitudes of the time, the lady being condemmed pretty much for her affair rather than the murder of her husband.
Also the attitudes of the working class in England lasted for a long time after women got the vote in this country,certainly up until the end of the 1960's the attitude was very much that women we're meant to stay at home,cook,clean,raise kids and shut up.I was a child in 1960's england and what I find striking is that the pictures of the East End in the late 1800's are not so very different from my childhood and the streets I was raised on.
So we come to our victims, not only does their sex condem them as second class people but they have fallen even further down the ladder,they are destitute and they are 'unfortunates'. Even if you look at the Yorkshire Ripper trial in the 1980's you will see that the attitude of 'well protitues are not really innocent victims' prevails.
So can you imagine what it must have been like in 1888? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2761
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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In April of 1870, Mary Nugent - who I suspect was an unfortunate - resident in a Dorset Street common lodging house was looking into a shop window in Aldgate High Street when Thomas Hogan came along and beat the living daylights out of her, breaking her jaw and removing most of her teeth, simply because she reminded him of his wife.
He only stopped because he was stopped by a man passing by.
Otherwise I do believe he would have killed her.
Simple motive. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2560
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Thanks for posting these AP and all the various comments.Such cases bring us closer to the overall
dynamics that was Victorian London and shaped the context of the 1888 murders.
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2272
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 5:05 am: |
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Hi AP,
In the diary, 'Sir Jim' claims he socked it to MJK for the same reason (although we must remember that a villain's word for motive may be worth sod all).
Some insight this shabby modern hoaxer had, eh?
Wasn't you, was it, you old devil?
Love,
Caz
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 849
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 9:07 am: |
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As grisly as they were, then, the Ripper killings were a part and parcel of a larger landscape, were only worse by a degree or two than everything else that was going on in Whitechapel. Why, then, did they create a media circus? |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2278
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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Hi Diana,
Well, it's usually a case of "yes, violent things happen, but at a safe distance, and to other people". The stark reality of one man going round mutilating women seemingly at random and for no apparent reason, and taking organs away in some cases, probably helped to concentrate the average mind a bit.
Love,
Caz
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 199
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
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Diana
Could it be due to the fact that this killer chose only unfortunates?
Could it be the ungodly hours he killed?
Or is it because these women were mutilated and all had their throats cut, no one actually saw him commiting his crimes, his killing sites in some cases were very risque and Jack was able to evade the police within minutes of his crime?
regards
Julie
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 985
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
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One thing to take into consideration is that the media circus began quite early. For example, the taking organs part couldn't have been a direct contributor to the original hysteria as no organs were taken until well after things were already hopping.
I would tend to think it was basically that, sure, there were outrages before, but enough really bad ones happened in the same basic area close enough together that it couldn't be brushed aside. And of course we can't forget that this particular year the press was hankering for a fight with the police anyway.
If the Ripper really did start his killings with Nichols, he inherited (or took advantage of, depending upon your view) an already volatile situation.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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