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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 300
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 11:35 am: | 
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Robert Charles Linford,
Re our Mitre sq chat on the Mylett thread a few weeks ago.
A friend of mine (who is in the know) is trying to obtain information regarding that bloody yard gate in Mitre sq.
It follows on from something I read in his book.
I shall let you know more tomorrow.
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 930
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:31 pm: |
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OK, Monty, look forward to it.
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 302
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 8:25 am: |
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Robert,
The following is a copy of a private mail to me by Mr Ivor Edwards. Its with his kind permission that I reproduce a partial copy here.
Hi Monty,
The following article is from the DAILY TELEGRAPH of
Monday, October 1, 1888, page 5 -
"The south-west corner is the one which is on the right hand when the
square is entered from Mitre-street. On this side, separated from the
open public space by a low wall and fence, there is a private yard,
which is for the most part roofed in, and is used as a lumber room.
This yard, which is some 40 ft. to 50 ft. in depth, and about 30 ft.
wide, intervenes between a tall pile of warehouses, six stories high,
occupied by Messrs. Horner and Sons, drug merchants, and a block of
dwelling houses, with shops on the ground floor, the backs of which look
upon the square, and the fronts face Mitre-street. The corner house
only is occupied, the tenant being Mr. Taylor, a picture-frame maker,
who was absent from home. Therefore the premises, together with those
adjoining, were quite empty. In the fence above mentioned there is a
door, which opens into the private yard, but it was locked. Near to the
door is a coal shoot, and at a distance a couple of arched gratings,
giving light to the cellars of the corner houses in Mitre-street. Above
these gratings there are two windows, provided with green shutters,
which were closed. The woman was lying on the pavement, with her head
about eighteen inches from the door in the fence and the coal shoot, and
with her legs toward the roadway."
There you have it Robert. It was locked after all !!!
It certainly adds a little more detail to the square doesnt it?
Monty
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Scott Nelson
Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 10:00 am: |
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The house with the green shutters, behind which the body lay, was formerly the home of Lewis Levy, son of the cigar maker and fruit merchant, Ann Levy. Ann, who had lived across the street at no. 29 (outside the Square) Mitre St., sold oranges in the adjoining Orange Market and was likely related to Joseph Hyam Levy. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 304
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 11:20 am: |
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Scott,
Really?
Why do you say likely ??
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 940
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 12:03 pm: |
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Wow, thanks Monty, and thanks to Ivor Edwards.
Locked, like the one in Buck's Row. I think earlier I said that the yard didn't have a name, but of course Sugden says it was called Heydemann's Yard. I'm a bit confused by the "roofed in" bit, though - there's no sign of a roof in Foster's sketch. The shutters can be seen in Foster's sketch.
According to what Chris found, Clapp was a young man. I had him down as an elderly deaf man!
Scott, did Levy never have any children?
Robert |
Scott Nelson
Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 1:11 pm: |
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Monty- "remotely" likely because Levy's wife, Amelia lived in the house Ann later occupied. "More" likely because Levy's father, Hyam (a butcher), had a brother, Samuel, who if my research is correct, married Ann and ran commercial navy warehouses at various addresses until he died and passed the business on to her. She held it until the early 1840s, when she passed it on to two of her sons and a son-in-law before retiring as a fruit merchant in Mitre Street.
Robert- none that I'm aware of. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 947
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 7:39 am: |
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Scott, I'm surprised that Mark King's Hyam Hyams hasn't attracted more attention. Any violent lunatic at large at the time of the (canonical) murders has to be worth a look. Is there some fatal flaw that makes him a non-starter?
Robert |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 3:13 pm: |
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One of these days, Mr. Nelson and I are going to have to have a long talk. A l-o-o-o-o-n-g talk about a few things. Yesiree Bob. (Hint)
Saddam
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Paul Williams
Sergeant
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 11:55 am: |
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Is it possible that the Ripper got away through the empty cottages or even hid in them for a while to clean up? |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 43
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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Paul - if one looks at the drawings or photographs of the empty houses, I doubt they would be very accessible from the rear. The basement half-windows look too small for a grown man to squeeze through and may have had bars (given their position). the ground (US first) floor windows look to high to climb up to easily.
All in all, anyone trying to escape that way would probably have attracted more attention than they would using the alternatives.
Phil |
Lats Nordman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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Hei
Is it possible that the Ripper got away through the empty cottages or even hid in them for a while to clean up?
Everything is possible...likely is another matter maybe!
lars |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 548
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Lats - I don't think it was even possible in this case. Check the pictures (Rumbelow; Begg's most recent book; and the Ultimate Source Book have them).
Phil |
joanne simons
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
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Can anyone tell me if there is a modern day map showing all the murder sites as they are today |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 4:43 am: |
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Hi Phil.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have a copy handy, but didn't Rumbelow, at least in an earlier edition of his book, speculate that the Ripper may have actually killed Eddowes in one of the empty houses, then dragged her outside to commit the mutilations???
Not that I would agree with that theory. I just wondered if you'd read it. I must recover that book, which was loaned to a friend long ago.
With regards.
DAVID C.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2417
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Running on from the drug merchants, Horner & Sons, who had shop and warehouse in Mitre Square, I have found an interesting case from 1887 where workers employed there were filching quicksilver in metal containers - worth about seven quid a throw - and using 'unfortunates' to store and sell-on the goods. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2345
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
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AP, Quick silver another name for mercury-someone wanting to buy some to cure his "imagined "[?]syphilis....may have hung around
Mitre Square and mistaken Kate for one of these "dealers"! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2423
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:54 pm: |
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Quite right, Natalie.
Especially when you consider that the disturbed young men of the age would rub themselves with quicksilver in an effort to rid themselves of the pox and other ailments... and then die from the effects of the quicksilver.
The case of John Porter in March of 1891 is a prime example, the poor young chap imagined that he suffered from 'cutaneous disorder', rubbed himself down with quicksilver, turned very red and then dropped down dead. Two others did the same.
One has to remember some descriptions of Thomas, his redness of face, and the constant applications of 'ointments' to his body and face.
And of course quicksilver absorbed through the skin would I imagine act much LSD. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2349
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Mercury poisoning AP-and are its symptoms really this redness?
There appear to be a couple of links to Thomas Cutbush here-his previous work for the Tea trade-wasn"t that with Kearley and Tonge...?If so one of their large warehouses was at one end of Mitre Square[ another ofcourse was in Bucks Row next to the row of houses where Polly Nichols was found] and now this item you have found about Horner and Co right next door to Kierley and Tonge and the black-marketing of Mercury via "unfortunates".
If Thomas had worked for Kierley and Tonge ,or gone into one of their offices from time to time on Tea trade business, he may have acquired inside "information" from one of these workers from Horner and Co"s who was anxious to make a fast buck -about the quick silver/mercury deals emanating from next door.
We know Thomas Cutbush was very concerned indeed over his health and in particular that he was believed or he himself believed that he was suffering from syphilis...and his skin was described as red and blotchy?
...interesting...could Catherine have been heading there hoping to meet him I wonder!I have often wondered how she made enough money to get blind drunk that day especially as John Kelly csaid they hadnt enough money left for any more food after they had breakfasted on his pawned boot money!
Mitre Square may yet be the vehicle into the solving of this case one way or another! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4859
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
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Of course, and inevitably, as soon as I start searching the "Times" for "mercury" the name of Grimthorpe and homeopathy crops up. Jan 20th 1888.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2425
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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Full circles or crop circles, you can take your pick, Robert.
I fully expected our dear Lord Grimthorpe to turn up at this stage.
Not having studied the long term effects of quicksilver poisoning, as absorbed through the skin, I will now do so, but I do expect to find that simple rub-on cures for the pox involving heavy metals does result in abject insanity.
End result: people begin falling down the stairs without much warning.
Why, after several doses one could imagine that the entire population of England were Catholics and that they were poisoning the drinking water with quicksilver, and then when you drank your brandy you fell in with a whore who gave you the pox and then quicksilver to cure it.
Mitre Square certainly had it all, the tea, the whores, the quicksilver, Jack murder, American-Irish anarchists, Lusk, ex-police who were thrown out of court for their lies, City of London policemen who took in friendly American-Irish bombers as lodgers…
Dr. Brooks of Westminster Bridge Road you got a lot to answer for with your quicksilver potions.
Thomas should have shot you.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2426
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
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Just a bit.
Differential diagnosis may include childhood schizophrenia, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), anxiety disorder, and other neuroses.
Related behaviors commonly found in ASD individuals are irrational fears, poor eye contact, aggressive behaviors, temper tantrums, irritability, and inexplicable changes in mood (1,2,12-17). Mercury poisoning, when undetected, is often initially diagnosed as a psychiatric disorder (18).
Commonly occurring symptoms include:
a) "extreme shyness," indifference to others, active avoidance of others, or "a desire to be alone";(b) depression, "lack of interest" and "mental confusion;"
(c) irritability, aggression, and tantrums in children and adults;
(d) anxiety and fearfulness; and
(e) emotional lability.
Neuroses, including schizoid and obsessive-compulsive traits, problems in inhibition of perseveration, and stereotyped behaviors, have been reported in a number of cases;
From the mid-18th to the mid-19th centuries, a process called "carroting" was used in the making of felt hats. Animal skins were rinsed in an orange solution of the mercury compound mercuric nitrate, Hg(NO3)2•2H2O. This process separated the fur from the pelt and matted it together. This solution and the vapors it produced were highly toxic. Its use resulted in widespread cases of mercury poisoning among hatters. Symptoms included tremors, emotional lability, insomnia, dementia and hallucinations. The United States Public Health Service banned the use of mercury in the felt industry in December 1941. The psychological symptoms associated with mercury poisoning may have inspired the simile "mad as a hatter", and thereby the Mad Hatter of Alice in Wonderland fame.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4861
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
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From http://www.noamalgam.com/#WHAT%20IT%20DOES
A picture of THC?
EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK:
WHAT MERCURY POISONING DOES TO YOU
In an overall lifestyle sense, the fact that symptoms come and go leads to the victim having periods of weeks to years of being highly functional and productive, interspersed with periods of being nonproductive and having a hard time getting anything done. Life seems to progress in fits and starts. Great progress is made on projects which later get shelved for long periods. As the disease continues, the productive periods become shorter, fewer, and farther between.
There are emotional changes in mercury poisoning. Depression slowly sets in. Victims feel fatigued and listless. They lack motivation - even for crucial tasks. They lose interest in their surroundings and in their own life. They do not enjoy life, or experience happiness or joy. They experience constant fear e. g. of losing their job. They may be very tense. They feel hopeless. They have a sense of impending doom. Every small problem is discouraging. Minor difficulties seem overwhelming and insurmountable.
The altered emotional state of a mercury intoxicated person leads to impaired interpersonal relationships. They become increasingly irritable and sensitive, reacting strongly to relatively innocent remarks. They may not be able to take orders, instructions, or suggestions without losing their temper. They resent criticism and may interpret innocent remarks critically. They may have an exaggerated response to stimulation and become fearful or anxious and nervous. They may project their fears and anxieties onto others, making inappropriate criticisms or attacks. They become shy and avoid dealing with strangers. While timid, they may unexpectedly lose self control with strangers. They may wish to visit with friends and family extensively, often wishing to engage in long, repetitive conversations, then withdraw for prolonged periods of time. They withdraw more and more from social contacts.
Intelligence gradually deteriorates. Previously bright persons become dull and slow in thinking. They suffer from a progressive decline specifically affecting short term memory as well as the faculties for logical reasoning. Thus their ability to do things like balance the checkbook, do math, or play chess suffers. They lose the ability to concentrate. Memory problems may be more from distractability and inability to concentrate and pay enough attention to get things INTO their memory than an actual failure to remember things (thus they may complain of memory problems but do well on memory tests). They cease being motivated towards their work or other tasks. Thoughts become heavy, repetitive and pedantic. Creative thinking becomes progressively more difficult, eventually becoming impossible. They become unable to select the right words to convey their meaning, and make stylistic and grammatical errors. Their ability to express themselves declines progressively.
There is a distinctive cognitive symptom of being unable to think clearly without great effort. The best description for people who have not experienced it is of a hangover without pain. People who have experienced it will recognize the term "brain fog" as entirely descriptive.
As the victim's level of intoxication waxes and wanes they go through periods of life when they do or do not dream. Dreaming may be in black and white.
Early physical symptoms include dizziness, tinnitus (ringing in the ears), insomnia, daytime drowsiness, loss of appetite, a tendency towards diarrhea - often alternating with constipation, cold hands and feet, a tendency towards sweating (some people have the opposite symptom and do not sweat at all), flushing or reddening of the skin - particularly on the face and neck. Some people blush frequently, but others do not blush at all. Asthma is a symptom of chronic mercury poisoning. Digestive disturbances are also common.
The skin becomes dry, athlete's foot and toenail fungus progress, and the insides of the ankles, particularly behind the ankle bone and a bit above it become dry, itchy, flaky and peel. This often becomes painful and annoying enough to keep the victim up at night. Even after fungus and yeast infection has been eliminated hyperkeratosis, often with papular erythema and itching are common.
The hair becomes thinner, dryer, duller, less strongly colored, slower growing, and more brittle.
The biological clock is disturbed. Waking up late and staying up late is more common than being an "early bird." Try as they might, the mercury poisoned person simply cannot control their circadian rhythm.
Victims may become photophobic and find bright light uncomfortable and unpleasant. There may be visual disturbances, including alterations in color perception leading to reduced sensitivity to the color red, or color blindness. The ability to focus on distant objects may be sporadically impaired. Peripheral vision may be reduced in the most severe cases.
The hands and feet often become distinctly cold. This can occur suddenly and is most distinctive when combined with sweating. Later in more severe poisoning they may also tingle or lose feeling.
The effects of mercury on the mouth are receding, sometimes spongy gums that bleed easily and teeth that are 'loose' in their sockets and can be wiggled very slightly. It also causes excessive salivation and unusually bad breath.
Mercury interferes with the sense of smell which becomes less acute, and later with hearing, in which perception of sounds does not diminish as notably as the patient's ability to understand and interpret them - e. g. to understand speech directed at them even though they hear it clearly.
Victims often experience discomfort that feels like a "tight band around their head." They may also experience sharp points of discomfort in their ear canals at bedtime.
Mercury also interferes with the body's ability to regulate temperature. Victims may alternate between being hot and cold when the temperature isn't changing, or have to wear more clothes than other people, or have more difficulty than other people in staying comfortable while the temperature changes. Temperature disregulation also leads to 'night sweats.'
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2427
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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We must be twins, Robert.
Did you see the timing of the last two posts?
Yours was better though.
A perfect picture. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4862
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:13 pm: |
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Who needs email when we've got telepathy, AP?
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2352
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
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Think I"ll have those fillings removed!
Thanks Robert and AP! |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2061
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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I think we've been here before, about a dozen years ago - but with arsenic poisoning; a lot of similar symptoms, of course. 
Love,
Caz
X |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2429
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
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Yes Caz, but this time we have what could be the potential motive behind a young man’s actions that have been previously a mystery to us.
Instead of the killed, we may well have a killer in our sights here.
We do know that THC was receiving treatment for either his imagined or real venereal disease from Dr Brooks of Westminster Bridge Road. Dr Brooks believed it to be imagined. THC believed it to be real.
We also know that THC wrote to Dr Brooks threatening to shoot him for supplying him with bad medicines.
Quicksilver was commonly used in potions to treat venereal disease during the LVP.
As Robert pointed out the symptoms of Mercury poisoning are a perfect picture of Thomas Hayne Cutbush - and his uncle Charles - and as I have pointed out I have found very similar cases where confused young men have rubbed themselves with lotions and potions of quicksilver in an effort to rid themselves of imagined pox… and eventually killed themselves.
John Porter, March 7th 1891, being a classic example.
Personally speaking, I am quite excited about the development of this thread, and where it might go.
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Droghada
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
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A dozen years ago? Hmmm, that would be around 1993. |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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David,
Hi. You made reference to Rumbelow's theory that Eddowes may have been killed in an empty house. I would only say that I can't imagine any prostitute at this time allowing herself to be taken into an empty (and probably rat infested)house.
c.d. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2065
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 6:25 am: |
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Hi Droghada,
Ooh, you're quicker than quicksilver. 
Love,
Caz
X |
Ms C
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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Resentment over mercury poisoning and the sickness he was taking it for might conceivably be a potential motive, but where in that very comprehensive list of symptoms do you see the Ripper? Problems with lethargy? Motivation? Lack of concentration? Tense, irritable and oversensitive? You might kick the cat, but carving up women?
I think you may have to be quite far gone for the toxic effects to have that drastic an impact on your mental state, by which time I suspect your physical and mental capacity to carry them out might be significantly impaired.
Best
Cate |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2443
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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Quicksilver was also employed in the making of home-made explosive devices, and as we know one of the London bombers from the LVP actually lodged at the house of a City policeman in Mitre Square, so he didn’t have far to travel.
Another former City policeman - Joseph Allinson - was up before the beak in April of 1891 for stealing goods from the warehouse of Kearley & Tonge in Mitre Square.
That makes four dodgy ex-City policemen involved with this warehouse in Mitre-Square.
However I am having some real problems with Kearley & Tonge at the moment, particularly in regard to Mitre Square.
For the name of the company that owned the warehouse in Mitre Square was actually ‘The International Tea Company’ - who had 200 similar properties scattered through London - but the branch in Mitre Square had the official title of ‘Messrs. Hudson, Newbank, and Kearley, Provision Dealers and Tea Merchants’ with a certain Kearley E. Hudson at the helm. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2368
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 5:28 pm: |
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Hi AP,
I can"t remember what or where the post is about the ex.policeman Morris but do I seem to remember he was up before the beak at some point too?
Its beginning to sound like Kate may have known about this place -maybe she had promised someone in the nick to call in there on her way home for some of this "rub it in yourself" stuff?
Natalie
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4880
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Hi AP and Natalie
I don't remember Morris being in trouble, though he did act as prosecution witness over a stolen empty box.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2444
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
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Morris was indeed, Natalie, and thrown out of court as a liar and blaggard.
Kearley E. Hudson was an MP, associate of Sir Andrew Lusk, and sat with the Cutbush-Flood clan with the Lord Mayor at fund raising banquets for the London Hospital.
He probably stole old Flood's gold watch.
By the way there is yet another tea merchant in Mitre Square called 'Ewbank & Kearley'... that makes three tea warehouses with the name of Kearley.
Does anyone know anything about the priory that used to be in Mitre Square? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2445
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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The Juwes...
'In view of these three independent pieces of evidence, all pointing to the same conclusion, it may now be regarded as an established fact that, while the origins of the Ashkenazi community in London may go back some while earlier, its organised existence began in the year 1690.2
Where was this earliest precursor of the Great Synagogue situated? The current works of reference are explicit on this point. It was, they say, in Broad Court, Mitre Square, being removed later on to the present site. It remains to decide where Broad Court, Mitre Square, was to be found, for it figures on no modern map. But it must be realised how vague and how fluid London place-names were down to the nineteenth century. Before this period, the name "Duke's Place" seems to have been most frequently applied, not as it was for so long, and as will generally be the case in the present volume, to the present Creechurch Place (previously St. James's Place) but to what is now called Mitre Square, at the rear of the Great Synagogue, and the adjacent streets. The historic Duke's Place, now so sadly metamorphosed, was variously called Duke's Place Court or Broad Court--a designation found at irregular intervals from as early as 1646 to as late as 1775. "Broad Court, Mitre Square" where the Synagogue was originally established, was not therefore some obscure cul-de-sac. It was none other than Duke's Place itself, where the first permanent synagogue was built, according to the historians, in 1722, and which for so many years was the heart of the London Ghetto.3'In view of these three independent pieces of evidence, all pointing to the same conclusion, it may now be regarded as an established fact that, while the origins of the Ashkenazi community in London may go back some while earlier, its organised existence began in the year 1690.2
Where was this earliest precursor of the Great Synagogue situated? The current works of reference are explicit on this point. It was, they say, in Broad Court, Mitre Square, being removed later on to the present site. It remains to decide where Broad Court, Mitre Square, was to be found, for it figures on no modern map. But it must be realised how vague and how fluid London place-names were down to the nineteenth century. Before this period, the name "Duke's Place" seems to have been most frequently applied, not as it was for so long, and as will generally be the case in the present volume, to the present Creechurch Place (previously St. James's Place) but to what is now called Mitre Square, at the rear of the Great Synagogue, and the adjacent streets. The historic Duke's Place, now so sadly metamorphosed, was variously called Duke's Place Court or Broad Court--a designation found at irregular intervals from as early as 1646 to as late as 1775. "Broad Court, Mitre Square" where the Synagogue was originally established, was not therefore some obscure cul-de-sac. It was none other than Duke's Place itself, where the first permanent synagogue was built, according to the historians, in 1722, and which for so many years was the heart of the London Ghetto.3'
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2369
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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I found a reference to it in The Ripper and The Royals-page 64.
[quote]JF Brewer cited a document he had fou nd in the British library when he wrote in 1530 Mitre Square had been the site of another brutal murder of a woman.In the 16th century it had been the site of a Priory of the Holy Trinity.A blue tile set in the wallcan be seen today marking the spot where it had once stood.According to Brewer a woman was praying in the Priory at the High altar when she was set upon by a mad monk who then turned the knife upon himself.
The square also has long associations with Free Masonry.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4881
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
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This is from Rocque's map 1746.
Robert |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 860
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
It's worth noting that J.F. Brewer's A Curse Upon Mitre Square is a work of fiction. Anything it claims about murders and the position of altar and so forth should be taken in the context that the author was making things up and very likely made those details up as well. Everything it has to say should be deemed as unreliable unless there is some outside source to confirm it.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2892
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
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Blimey been on the old Mercury site................... Got it all!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well researched AP and Robert I (sort of ) enjoyed it!!!!!!
As to Mitre Square...I still think there's a lot going on there at the end of the day it still has a hell of an atmosphere!
Suz |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2446
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Basically I was just thinking aloud that if someone found out that the word Jews was spelled ‘Juwes’ way back in the 1600’s, and then someone else found out that the very first Great Synagogue for the Ashkenazi community of London was actually in Mitre Square in the 1600’s, then it might prove possible to provide some linkage between the killing of a whore in Mitre Square in 1888 and the word ‘Juwes’ that was written nearby and soon after.
Daft thought I suppose.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2447
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Perhaps Eddowes was on her way to Mitre Square to get married.
A little known fact is that for many years Mitre Square was the Gretna Green of London, and folks who were unable to get married within the normal legal framework elsewhere travelled to Mitre Square to tie the knot.
It was a sort of ‘no-man’s land’.
Which is of course why the Juwes were allowed to build their house of worship there in the first place.
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2075
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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Hi AP,
Interesting thought - not daft in my view.
We already know that someone had a Jewish murderer on the brain in Berner St ("Lipski!"), just before one woman was murdered near a Jewish mens' club.
We also know that someone had Jews and blame on the brain in Goulston St at some point ('The Juwes are the men...'), and that a second woman was murdered near another Jewish mens' club within an hour of the first.
In that area, it would be hard not to find some sort of direct Jewish connection with any murder taking place. And the trend on the boards seems to be to argue that the man who happened to shout "Lipski!" and the man who chalked the 'Juwes' message were two separate individuals, neither of whom was the actual man who murdered and mutilated woman number two that night and happened to drop half her apron beneath the message.
I must admit I'm finding it hard to imagine three men, acting independently of one another, but producing between them a scenario that would be entirely consistent with one anti-Semitic killer preying on prostitutes in the city of Jews that night.
But I find it all too easy to imagine one man with too many dark thoughts crowding his mind not to let some out, one way or three.
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on August 31, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2451
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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I can’t disagree with the eminent common sense of what you say, Caz, as it is far more likely that the two events are linked in some manner to the ‘Juwes’.
Strangely enough I’ve just been looking at a case of murder in Mitre Square from way back in 1784 - no commonality with Jack but plenty with Mitre Square and Juwes - where a disgruntled resident, fed up with young Juwes letting off firecrackers outside the synagogue in the square on the Feast of the Tabernacles - 7th October 1784 - confronts the youths with two constables backing him up with their staffs, fails miserably as there are about three hundred of them, so retreats to his house where he proceeds to blast the Juwes with his blunderbuss from an open window, wounding many and killing one.
It is possible that the house the chap fired from is the very one that Eddowes was killed outside.
Still looking at the geography.
Of course, and reluctantly, that does take us back to the killing of Stride, and her new found luck with a Jewish gentleman.
I’m trying to get an exact date for the closing of the original synagogue in Mitre Square - or Little Duke’s Place as it was then known - and have managed to get to 1832 so far.
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 221
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 8:41 am: |
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Caz
It is interesting thinking. But if you take the other attacks on Wilson, millwood, Tabram, Nichols, chapman, Kelly into acount would we not also expect to see more obvious Jewish conections if this was part of the motivation.
Tabram was last seen with two soldiers. No obvious Jewish conections to Nichols or Chapman. OK the guy last seen with Kelly was discribed as Jewish looking but we were in the East end.
Surely we would have some suggestion or evidence at the other attacks. Are we not in danger of buying into something created by the press and anti samitic fears.
Its interesting but surely we'd see evidence elsewhere?
Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2087
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
Well, for a start, there is no proof that the first three victims you name were attacked by Jack.
And I was playing devil's advocate by conceding that some sort of Jewish connection to any East End murder at the time would not be unexpected.
I wasn't thinking so much in terms of general motivation, but if an anti-Semitic Jack had been reading the newspapers in the weeks leading up to the double event, he could hardly have been unaffected by the Leather Apron scare and how the Jewish suspect was cleared of blame.
The press didn't create Schwartz or the cry of "Lipski!"; the press didn't create the 'Juwes' message and apron by the Jewish dwellings. And that night saw two more murders that could no longer be blamed on Leather Apron.
A month and a bit later, Jack may have had a lot more than Jews on his mind.
By the way, it's good to see you back!
Love,
Caz
X |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 222
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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hi caz
Yes I've been away and very busy on Guy Fawkes. And today working on the Hannah Tailford programme for next Tuesday.
I understand that Milwood, Wilson and Tabram are my own pet theories. But playing Devils Advocate I ask myself why stop the Jewish conection if it hadnt had any bearing on the Stride and Eddows Killings.
Given the large Jewish population in this area at the time, surely you have to accept that it could have been simple coincidence.
I know I'm not being very constructive hear. But I dont think these three facts really add up to much. The 'Lipski' Cry may not have been conected to the Stride murder and although the Jewish club conection is interesting it doesnt tie in else where.
Your right though Jack must have been aware what the papers were saying. Perhaps he was even bemused by the fuss he had stirerd up.
Personally I think self gratification of his strange disires was the only thing on his mind at the time of the killings.
Interesting stuff though Caz. I have been keeping up with the threads, had just miss laid my password and was busy in edit.
Fab to have a day off. Catch you soon. Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2090
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 5:24 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
Oh yes, I accept that coincidences do happen and that the little Jewish 'clues' might not be clues at all.
But it's at least possible that Jack wanted his work that night to support the public suspicion that a Jew was responsible, despite Leather Apron not being the one. Attacking a victim near a Jewish men's club may have been very risky, but there may have been method in the madness if he wanted everyone to suspect a club member.
The apron and message may have been an attempt to leave a distinctly 'Juweish' trail from club to dwelling.
Love,
Caz
X |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2455
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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December 20th 1865.
Number 7, Mitre Square, blown to hell and back, by the unfortunate use of 'Chinese Fire'.
Two dead.
I would like to see a very detailed map of Mitre Square, as too many folk are dying here.
And all deaths seem to be of an explosive nature. |
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