| Author |
Message |
    
Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 184
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 4:34 pm: | 
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Hi all,
I was wondering whether someone could tell me the name of the person that gave Manor Park Cemetery the awful picture that is displayed in the reception there.
I remembered when I saw it, that about two years ago the great granddaughter of Annie had said that she had visited Manor Park cemetery once and saw this dreadful thing on the wall. It's very cheap and tacky, but the person in charge of the cemetery refuses to remove it.
I'm sure people on this site would agree how bizarre and tasteless it would be to visit a cemetery that has your own great grandmother's mortuary picture on the reception wall!
If anyone knows the name of the person that created it in the first place, I can be contacted also by email to nstubbings6165@hotmail.com
Thanks
Neal |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 242
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 1:03 am: |
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Neal
Can't some legal means be taken,since no one else is "commemorated" in similar fashion?
Maybe the kinfolk could go to the press?
..or a lawyer? Cemeteries depend on "good press" like a dairy or cheesesteak shop.
Maybe someone here with a contact in the local press near Manor Park could raise a substantial stink about this.
It would be equivalent to having people see OUR Mom's and Dad's displayed for some "drawing power" to have your loved one's buried in the same cemetery as a "Victim of JTR".
Its not kosher,Neal. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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I agree this is tasteless in the extreme. How would copyright laws apply? Is the image now considered to be in the public domain or would the reproduction rights still rest with the Metropolitan Police?
Chris |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 731
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
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Neal,
Have you tried contacting the directors of the cemetery? Sounds like they only have an acting manager who probably can't make any permanent decisions anyway.
Please let us know what happens.
Cheers,
Dave |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 12:17 pm: |
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Neal,
am not sure what you mean. you mean that Annie Chapman's mortuary photo is on the wall or a different photo?
All sounds tasteless. relatives who might visit or not. surely the council might be a good bet?
failing all else a petition
Jenni |
Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 185
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 7:42 pm: |
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Hi all,
I have sent an email today to the Institute of Cemetery and Crematorium Management, it may well be the right place to inform. I'll have to wait and see. I'll consider contacting the Newham Recorder the local paper as Howard suggests if that comes to nothing.
Chris, I believe the Public Records Office holds the copyright for this picture and unless the cemetery have gained copyright from the PRO then they have breached that copyright?
David, the directors might have been a good idea to try first, but the acting manager on that site is the one who refuses to take down the picture.
Jenni, it is Annie Chapman's mortuary photo. It is part of a sort of montage, the other pictures being of an alleged marker on the grave, and also some text. When I went to the cemetery I'm certain that I saw that this whole thing had been coloured in by someone with pencils which made it look even more awful. The manager informed me after I'd written to her that it hadn't been "coloured in by anyone", and therefore I believe they replaced that one quickly with a black and white copy.
I hope that a petition will not necessary but I'll see if other means can remove it first.
Thanks everyone, will keep you updated.
Neal
By the way, the manager alleged that the person who provided this picture for the cemetery was a researcher who was involved with Scotland Yard and the Black Museum, but wasn't brave enough to provide the name?
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1876
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 6:04 am: |
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Hi Neal,
Thanks for the update. hope you can get something done about it.
Jenni |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 244
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
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"The manager informed me after I'd written to her that it hadn't been "coloured in by anyone", and therefore I believe they replaced that one quickly with a black and white copy". -Neal
If you weren't mistaken the first time you saw the photo,then this is proof that the cemetery is either exploiting Mrs.Chapman or someone is acting very un-business to say the least at Manor Park. To substitute it AFTER your initial conversation with yet another photo indicates callousness worthy of exposing this to the press to show how these people operate.
Get on their ass,Neal... |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1878
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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I'd like to know who did provide the photo.
I dread to think that it could have been one of our number.
How
exploiting Mrs Chapman, yes I agree.
Jenni |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4082
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 5:08 pm: |
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Neal, this might make a good article for the Whitechapel Society mag. They're looking for material.
Robert |
Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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I can't really see it's our place to interfere. It's none of our business, its down to the families.
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Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 186
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:10 pm: |
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Joan,
Because the family don't wish to come forward, I interfere on their behalf, and when it comes to something as tasteless as this we have a right to make it our business.
Neal |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1906
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
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Hi Neal,
I take it then that the family are aware of this photo? i don't know how that would make me feel, if i were in their shoes.
Jenni |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4112
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
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Another point is (as Neal will be aware) this sort of thing won't exactly encourage descendants to allow publication of family photos, if they fear something like this might happen. I imagine that family photos are copyright, but all the same.....
Robert |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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(perhaps we aren't ones to talk but) i think its tastelss in the extreme to put such a thing up at such a place. Annie Chapmans final resting place. a place visted by relatives (not just of her) for peaceful contemplation about dead loved ones. surely images of the dead are not something they wish to be confronted by. |
Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 187
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 3:53 pm: |
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Hi Jenni and Robert,
Jenni,
the great granddaughter visited the cemetery once and saw this on the wall and wrote to me about it in disgust.
Robert,
it's impossible for me to get the Chapman lady to come forward anyway, but things like this just make sure that it will never happen. The fact that I pointed out to the manager that the family did not approve of it was completely ignored. Instead, she made a point of informing me in so many words that copyright of the picture they have is held by the PRO. Which is like saying that even if the family disapprove there's nothing they can do about it!
The Institute of Cemeteries and Crematoria Management sent me a reply and backed my opinion on this, but said they have no power to do anything about it, and advised me to write to the Directors of the cemetery, which I shall do tomorrow.
Thanks
Neal
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 354
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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Dear Neal
I went to Manor Park Cemetary today and can provide you with the following information which, though not the info you are looking for, should iron out a few creases...
Firstly, it is likely the information was indeed provided by someone with knowledge. The only possible error was the ambiguity of the mention of 'Sivvy'(sic). Otherwise, it was clearly taken from a well-researched work.
Secondly, though this is probably an irrelevance, I found the staff there extremely friendly and helpful though I do agree it is wrong to have her mortuary photo, albeit very small and part of a montage, in the reception.
I ask this as a genuine question - would you be prepared to provide them with a copy of the 'wedding' photo to put in its place?
I do not see then there would be any possibility of offence. It would be a tribute to her in my view. As her grave site has been reused, she is the only one of the canonical 5 to not have a marker. This item is the closest to a memorial she has, and in the absence of them having anything better, they have used the Old Montague Street shot. Misguided, not malevolent. I walked over the plot where she is lying and it is just not at all condusive to placing any kind of tribute there. Also, it measures about 200 by 50 feet and they don't know just where in that plot she is.
In regards to it being 'coloured-in' - you are actually wrong. The images up there are computer print-outs and what looks like colouring-in is the tonal quality of the printer ink. That would be why they disagreed with your view. There is no conspiracy afoot.
Neal, you of all people on these boards have the right to be annoyed by something like this. However, I also feel that the record needs to be set straight and this could be turned to Annie's advantage.
I hope this helps everyone sleep a little easier!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1923
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:42 am: |
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Neal,
thanks for that.
Philip,
thanks for the info also.
Cheers
Jenni |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1329
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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Hi all
Aren't we talking here about the well-known mortuary photograph of Annie Chapman, the one we all knew before the Chapman wedding picture was discovered by Neal Sheldon? If it is the mortuary photograph, I don't find anything ghoulish about it, in fact Annie looks rather peaceful, as if she is sleeping. There are no mutilations visible, and since a covering hides her neck we don't see the neck wound that killed her either.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1937
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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nonetheless she is dead in it, and her family do not approve,
Jenni |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 356
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
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Hi Chris and Jenni
You are both right. That is why I think Neal, as the obvious candidate, should offer to replace the mortuary shot with the wedding shot.
This will turn the montage from being ghoulish to being a tribute. Annie deserves an on-site reminder. Such a move would reclaim the sentiment.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1330
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
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Hi Jen and Philip
Yes that does appear to be the solution to the problem, to put Annie's wedding photograph up at Manor Park Cemetery in place of the mortuary photograph. I hope that the descendants and Neal Sheldon can facilitate that it be so done.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 749
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:07 pm: |
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Hi Philip,
It's an interesting ethical dilemma, the interests of relatives as opposed to the interests of the public and whether there's a balance to be found.
In this case, I think you've hit on a terrific compromise. I think respect and taste have a large role to play.
Cheers,
Dave
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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Hi everyone,
yes indeed.
though personally i think if the family wanted it removing altoghther that should be done. their wishes should be respected.
Cheers
Jenni |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 358
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Hi Jenni
Ah, but would they want it removed if the change was made?
Maybe if they did want it taken away completely, we could fund raise on Casebook to have a small plaque attached nearby in remembrance of her.
Of course, we don't know what legal rights the family would have in this. Maybe it is entirely up to Manor Park.
In spite of being disrespectful to the family (unintentionally, I am sure) I can fully understand WHY Manor Park would WANT people to know Annie is buried there. She is - like it or not - a celebrity (and please understand the sense in which I mean that term). In the wider scale, visitors to the cemetary will see other graves too. Every grave read is a thought given to the person who lies there.
And that can't be a bad thing.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1332
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:01 pm: |
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Hi Philip
I do think that there is a place to properly memorialize the victims of Jack the Ripper. It is often said that the still unknown murderer gets all the publicity and the victims are forgotten, well this would be one way to rectify that perception. A tasteful plaque paid for by Casebook visitors or other interested parties would, I think, be nice.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 188
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
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Philip/George?
Please do provide an account of this well-researched work. I must admit I didn't bother to read much of the text. By the way, they told me in the reply letter that the text was re-written before they put it back on the wall.
I found the staff awful, in particular the manager.
Under no circumstances will I ever provide anything for Manor Park Cemetery, while that person is manager!
As for suggesting that I am wrong over the picture being coloured-in, my previous post had already pointed out that the one I saw was replaced, so you saw another one.
I'm glad that you don't believe in conspiracies anymore than I do.
Chris,
I agree with Jenni.
And I'm sure any of us would object to seeing our ancestor's dead body on show in a picture at a cemetery, unless of course, the family had given permission, which in this case they haven't.
If there's going to be memorial to the victims it should be in Spitalfields or the City, but try saying that to the local councils.
Neal |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1338
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
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Hi,
A cemetary is a place of rest, not a commercial tourist guide, albeit a lot of people on these boards pay homage to the victims at the relevant sites which i feel is respectful, however the names of the actual victims of these crimes that are buried within these grounds should i feel not be advertised within the church entrance.
It should be a matter of choice to either visit a cemetary if ones in the position to know the locality, or not, and not public knowledge for people to gloat over when visiting a East End burial ground.
Regards Richard. |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 359
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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Dear Neal
I am sorry you feel as you do about this matter. I thought - and I expect many share this - that we could have had a decent resolution to the issue.
I didn't make a note of the text, obviously. I did read it all and, as I say, I can find nothing in there apart from the fact that it seemed sure her final paramour was called 'Sivvy' that isn't known as established fact. It had dates and times correct (and, let's face it, a lot of supposed 'decent' books on Jack can't even do THAT!) and mention of her family.
I can only speak as I find, and I have to maintain the staff I spoke to there were very friendly and helpful. Perhaps it was different for yourself because you were (understandably) annoyed by what you found.
I can appreciate your reluctance to thus proceed with my suggestion because of your strong feelings. It is, however, a pity. Another possible option would be, as you are unwilling to allow them to use the photo with John, that Jane may be prevailed upon to donate one of her artistic renderings of Annie in life to replace it? If it would clear up the situation, I would be happy to deal with all of this myself.
I wish to quote you here : "When I went to the cemetery I'm certain that I saw that this whole thing had been coloured in by someone with pencils which made it look even more awful. The manager informed me after I'd written to her that it hadn't been "coloured in by anyone", and therefore I believe they replaced that one quickly with a black and white copy."
To this I replied : "The images up there are computer print-outs and what looks like colouring-in is the tonal quality of the printer ink. That would be why they disagreed with your view."
Your answer to this was : "As for suggesting that I am wrong over the picture being coloured-in, my previous post had already pointed out that the one I saw was replaced, so you saw another one."
I hope when I bring these statements together it should make sense what I am saying. They denied it had been coloured-in because it HADN'T been coloured in - it was the tonal ink quality that made it LOOK like it was coloured in. You say yourself in the posting above you did not inspect it closely. You have assumed because they say it hadn't been coloured-in that the one you saw initially WAS hand-coloured and they have since replaced it. I am telling you I am sure they are one and the same. There never was a hand-coloured picture. It was always the one that is there now. It just looks hand-coloured if you do not inspect it closely.
I agree with you there should be a memorial in Spitalfields, but this is yet another grey area - to commemorate Annie on the wall of Truman's Brewery would act as a ghoulish magnet, far more than a small ill-conceived photocopy on a cemetary office wall.
Annie has no marker for her resting place. Our choice as respectors of the dead as contributors of Casebook would be to commemorate the individual, not the crime. To do that the memorial would thus be to give the world some token of her existance outside of being a Ripper victim, and that could only be reached by commemorating her burial site as opposed to the spot of her murder.
It is not up to us. It is up to Annie's family and you are that point of communication. We would abide by what they wanted.
Neal, we are on the same side. All we are trying to do is good. The only difference is I don't see Manor Park in quite the same light that you do.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 283
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
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HI Everyone,
I wouldn't have brought it up myself, but as Philip has I hope you don't mind me putting something in.
I am more than happy to do a special portrait of Annie in life something along the lines of the one I have already posted on the Casebook but specifically designed to be placed at the cemetery where she rests.
I would obviously give it my all to make sure that she had at least, a lovingly painted tribute to her memory. I would consider it the greatest privelege to be able to give her this gift.
Lots of Love to all
Jane
xxx
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Carolyn
Police Constable
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
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Jane,
I think that would be fantasic and a very special tribute to her. Also, a very generous gesture on your part.
I have seen your work here on the boards and you have a gift, the pictures you have done give a true feeling of their humanity.
Thanks,
Carolyn |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2119
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:43 am: |
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Jane et al
I would be homoured to put my Annie in too
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2120
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek HONOURED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hope you got the drift there!!!
Suzi |
Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 189
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
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For fear of going over old ground, I will just say that I stand by my previous posts etc etc...
As for what the families want. I have always tried to gloss over the fact that my general impression of the victims families is that they think most of us into Jack the Ripper research are nutters.
The Chapman lady was mostly indifferent, but did seem upset over some things that she thought were tasteless like the picture at Manor Park Cemetery.
The Eddowes lady could get visibly upset too. I even removed the pages of Catherine Eddowes mortuary pictures from a book I gave her at one time.
Also, when I took a French film crew to interview her, she was asked to comment on a game that had been invented about Jack the Ripper. To my horror she replied that, "they must be sad people who need to get a life". I know that Andy and Adam are serious researchers, and thankfully the film crew did not include this in their documentary.
With the Nichols lady, again it was mostly indifference and a determination to be kept well away from it all. However, Maureen, another Nichols relative, has posted on this site, but was surprised when I suggested that if she came to London I could get her to meet an Eddowes relative and perhaps get TV and newspaper interest. I think she felt that I was trying to exploit the situation?
Possibly I was, after all, what chance do you have of bringing interest to the victims and change peoples opinions about them if the public never get to hear about it? So maybe I am on Philip's side, when I see an opportunity for self promotion I seize it with both hands 
So if anyone wants to attempt to replace the Manor Park Cemetery picture with something else then I wish you luck. But remember it's for your own reasons and not the family, who just thought that the one that's hanging there at present was tasteless. And that's why I wanted it removed.
Neal |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 750
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 7:12 pm: |
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Hi Neal,
I thought Philip's idea was a good one, but you're the fellow who's put in the work on the victims and you know the families. So for my part, I'll wish you the best of luck with the directors and just leave you to it. Hopefully, you'll find them to be reasonable people who are sympathetic to the family's wishes, which after all, is pretty good business practice for people in the death industry.
Please keep us posted on what happens and if things go badly for the family, please let us know if and when they think of some way for us "nutters" to help. I don't feel like a nutter. 
Jane, may I say that I think your portraits are wonderful, btw?
Cheers,
Dave |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 7:15 pm: |
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Jane"s is a generous gesture [and Suzi]. I think it is necessary to try to counter the image still prevalent that the victims were less than human and that they can therefore be spoken of almost as non- people.
Some kind of memorial that counters this would be very helpful and an image that captures her resilient spirit would be lovely Jane and Suzi.
Natsxxx |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 6:05 am: |
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Hi Neal, everyone,
I hope the issue can be resolved.
i don't know maybe we are all nutters. like i just said on another well known ripper forum, who wants to be normal!?
Jenni
"We're so incredibly, utterly devious, Making the most of everything."
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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I have to say I'm a little shocked at these conversations ( Neil) and at all this self appointed behaviour. Surely anyone who cares about the family won't blab the matter all over the place?
Perhaps the family would like to meet other researchers. Probably, provided it's discreet} and kind.
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
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There's something not right about this. Neil, have the family written you an angry letter about releasing the pictures atall? Hence their ending up at the cemetary?
" disgusted."
If so, we certainly shouldn't be blabbing about it on the web, that would be inconsiderate.
Points of contact are surely up to the family.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 751
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 2:28 pm: |
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Joan,
I think it's clear that the family has chosen Neal as their point of contact. Since Neal has conducted victim research since the 1980s and is responsible for much, if not all, of what we know about them, he's the sensible, most qualified choice. As a matter of fact, I believe the family members Neal is in contact with were completely unaware of their connection until Neal approached them. Neal has forged relationships and it's clear that they trust him (evidenced by their sharing of family photographs). I don't know Neal, but everything I've read indicates that he feels a deep obligation to not only the victims, but the families as well and he has carefully protected their privacy. So you're wrong to suggest that he doesn't care about them. I hope they realize how fortunate they are to have Neal in their corner and what a great service he's provided to them. Certainly, we're fortunate to have him here on Casebook.
It sounds like you're unfamiliar with Neal's work. C.M.D.'s interview with him is also on the site--you ought to read it. I would also search for his posts on the various victim threads and look into picking up a copy of his booklets.
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4138
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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Hi Joan
As David says, Neal is blameless in all this. He is a very well-respected Ripper researcher.
Robert |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1959
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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Hi everyone,
I agree with the guys (that's you Robert and David!).
i assume Neal is acting on the family's behalf. and certainly with their interests in mind.
BTW his books are well worth a read,
Cheers
Jenni
(Message edited by jdpegg on February 19, 2005)
"We're so incredibly, utterly devious, Making the most of everything."
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 368
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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Hi all.
I have to say I agree with the previous 3 posts from Jenni, Robert and David.
I can understand how it must appear to you, Joan, but it really isn't like that. Neal and I are disagreeing over minutae but that doesn't mean for a second I don't think he only has the interests of the relatives in mind - and that is what counts. Neal IS the appointed contact and is well respected, so we should trust him on issues concerning the familes. There are a few people who could learn from his consideration!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1343
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 1:25 pm: |
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Hi all
I am getting a bit concerned that there might be some confusion here. The person who reported that he was upset with the picture of Annie Chapman at Manor Park Cemetery is Neal Stubbings, who reported that Annie's great granddaughter was likewise upset about the photograph at Manor Park. By contrast, the person who has been researching the families of Chapman and Eddowes and who has published books on these victims is Neal Shelden, whom David O'Flaherty cited for his interview with CMD. Neal Shelden, a respected researcher, is thus the individual who I should think should be entrusted in ascertaining the wishes of the descendants.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 753
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 1:41 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for pointing that out; Stubbings and Shelden are one in the same. http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4921&post=101104#POST101104
Nice to see you back posting--I hear you've been busy! Reading your Diosy article and enjoying it very much.
Cheers,
Dave
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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Hi David
Thanks David, glad you are enjoying the Diosy article in the January issue of Ripperologist. I am involved now in getting the March issue to bed. The issue will include a comprehensive, long article on Aaron Kosminski by Robert House. Also on the horizon but probably for the May issue is an article by Joe Chetcuti on Tumblety in London in 1888. Both articles should cause great interest.
I must say, it's still not clear to me that Stubbings and Shelden are the same person -- is that thread you posted supposed to show they are the same? I do though see that Shelden and Stubbings share the same user name. Hmmmmmm. 
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on February 20, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 754
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 2:35 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for the update on the upcoming issues--I need to renew my subscription. Joe's article in the current issue was great.
There's a misunderstanding we need to correct--Neal Stubbings is Neal Shelden. Here's the post where Neal announced his name change. http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4921&post=99594#POST99594
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1345
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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Hi David
Thanks for the update on Neal's name change of which I was unaware. Glad you like Joe Chetcuti's article in the current issue... and if you thought that was good... Meanwhile, here's an amusing poem about name changes: Melodic Name Changers.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 755
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
I enjoyed the poem--my favorite melodic name change has to be Arnold George Dorsey, who changed his name to Engelbert Humperdinck!
I actually changed my own name about fifteen years ago, adding the "O" to my surname which my great-great grandfather had dropped in the Atlantic on his way over from Ireland. It was still a bit wet but I like it a lot better.
Cheers,
Dave |
Restless Spirit
Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 3:14 pm: |
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Christopher T. George
I have always enjoyed your posts on the old board and on these boards. You have no doubt spent a great deal of time and hard work supplying valuable research material. You no doubt do not remember me from the previous board however I have always considered you a gentleman. I noted your post on the Ripperologist newspaper, and I would like to know whether or not you ship to Canada and if yes where do I go to get the pertinent information concerning same.
regards, keep up the great work
Restless Spirit
Restless Spirit
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1346
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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Hi Restless Spirit
Many thanks for your kind words. I'm glad you enjoy my posts. You're right I do try to remain a gentleman despite sometimes trying circumstances! Not sure I recall you by the names I see you under here, Restless and judyj, but perhaps you can refresh my memory. If you wish to subscribe to Ripperologist, you can reach us through http://www.ripperologist.info and yes indeed we do ship worldwide, to Canada and the United States and points beyond! 
Hi again David
O, that's a great story about you rescuing the family "O" from the Atlantic. Perhaps that's also why your user name is O - berlin?  Talking of name changes, there's a place here in Maryland called Berlin, on the state's eastern shore. One would think that "Berlin" would be named after Berlin, Germany, but in fact the story is that the inn that stood at the crossroads for some years was known as the Burleigh Inn, and this got contracted to "Berlin"!
All my best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on February 20, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 756
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 3:57 pm: |
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Chris,
You certainly are a gentleman who's also a very knowledgeable historian, not only on the Whitechapel murders but also the War of 1812. Should we ever meet, you're on my "buy this person a drink" list.
My user name comes from the little town of Oberlin, Ohio and the terrific college that's located there, although I never attended it myself. I've visited and just like the place a lot.
It's good that you brought up the Stubbings/Shelden confusion since other people might have missed Neal's post.
Cheers,
Dave |
Restless Spirit
Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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Christopher T George
Thank you for info re: Ripperoligist Paper.
I have subscribed, and am looking forward to my first issue.
Restless Spirit
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
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I do think that the choice of who they are seen by and what goes where is up to the families. Anything else is self appointed, bigoted,or interference. We have to accept that, they are the victims, not us. |
Theron Helton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 12:37 am: |
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Joan--Amen, and well said! As an occasional observer to this site it does seem some people get "Overly Officious" on things that really are not their "business", just their "hobby". Perspective is a key word in all aspects of Life; some lose it at certain times. |
