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John Lockett
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 5:21 pm: |       |
Hi everyone. I posted a few messages in the WH Bury threads some while back.
I keep meaning to register with the casebook, and as soon as I've sold my house and moved, I will.
So anyway...these (ahem) coins.
I've been doing a bit of thinking lately (steady old boy) and got to thinking about where the creation - if you like - of the coins came from. I'm not talking about the one found under Annie's body, but the ones "arranged" at her feet.
So I dug out my copy of the Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook (Robinson edition 2001)and on page 56, 9 lines up from the bottom of the page it quotes "patches of blood varying in size from a sixpenny piece to a point,".
And I got to thinking that perhaps a misrepresentation of the word "sixpenny" got distorted over time to be a farthing or 2.
Any thoughts? Or am I talking drivel?
Cheers
John} |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 374
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 1:31 pm: | |
John,
You really don't want an answer to that last question do you? Smile.
Actually I suppose that explanation is a possibility, but having recently done some researching among contemporary newspaper reports of the murders it is apparant an awful lot of misinformation was printed. Much of this was the result of the reluctance of the police to treat with the press. As a consequence, reporters scrambled to interview anyone who claimed to have known the victims or been at the crime scene. Thus, much nonsense was printed and once printed became part of the the lore forever.
Don. |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 385
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:59 pm: | |
John,
The boards work in a strange way sometimes, so if you are still around you might check the thread about whether Inspector Abberline was the Ripper where on December 28 there were several posts about your enterprising idea.
Don. |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 648
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 3:17 pm: | |
Hi John and Don,
Don, yes they do work in strange ways. I am feeling much calmer and collected today, thanks  I'm glad you posted again because I forgot where this thread was at. I wanted to let John know that I thought his connection between arrangement of items and "sixpenny" of blood in Phillips's testimony was interesting. Those terms follow each other closely in his testimony, so I can understand how, if someone's reading the inquest testimony, then puts it aside for a few months or years, their memory might get all jumbled up.
But instead of the inquest, I think after all Don is right to look towards the newspapers as the genesis for the idea. "Farthings" and "arrangement" were being written about almost as soon as Chapman was found--10 Sept 1888 (Star, Daily Telegraph), although not in terms of farthings being arranged.
Here's where I think your idea might stick though: Philip Sugden references an even earlier article from the Pall Mall Gazette which talks about rings being "arranged" near Chapman, which I haven't seen yet. Don is spot on when he says the watch out for the press, but the PMG at least seems to have anticipated in a garbled way some of Phillips's testimony (since Phillips is the only person I know of who ever saw order in items around Chapman's body, the muslin scrap and comb/case). So I wonder if your idea that the good doctor was an indirect source for some of those early stories might still hold, not from his inquest testimony but maybe from what he told someone within the force, and then it got garbled on its way to some reporter hanging around the station. I dunno if it happened like that though
If you have Philip Sugden's book, also see his chapter on Chapman Myths; he gives a on the history of the farthing myth, from newspapers to police (Reid and Smith), and then to it all coming together in the 20th century with coins being arranged around Annie Chapman. Also of much interest to me is an old archived post from Viper around 2000, where he cites, of all people, Inspector Reid, who testified that farthings being found on Chapman's body (Times 19 July 1889, Mackenzie inquest). Interesting that those newspaper reports from Sept 1888 (Star, Daily Telegraph, PMG) found their way into Reid's memory, who according to Sugden was on leave during the Chapman investigation.
I haven't read Evans & Connell yet, but I wonder if they discuss Reid's testimony in The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper. I'm surprised Reid would be repeating that bit about the farthings, but I guess he's human. Reid is someone I'd like to read more about. My favorite Reid trivia: he was a balloonist in the 1870's, and his obituary says he once parachuted from a height of 1000 feet.
Sorry for the long-winded post! Thanks again, Don.
Welcome to the boards,
Dave
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 456
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 2:46 am: | |
Hi David,
Reid says farthings were found in the Hanbury Street case, but he doesn't say in what capacity. It would be easy for someone to assume he meant in the same way: near the body. That seems to be what most people concluded anyway, and then that seems to have gotten mixed up with the whole things were arranged in some peculiar manner by her body theme.
It seems more likely to me, however, that he's referring to a witness report of a strange man trying to pass a polished farthing off as sovereign. This was investigated around the same time as the Chapman murder, so it would make sense for him to refer to it as part of that case.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 649
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 10:04 am: | |
Hi Dan
That's an interesting point, but when Reid says "In another instance of this kind - the Hanbury street murder - two similar farthings were found", I take him to mean strictly Chapman, especially when he's talking about finding farthings. In that other case you mention, I think the press mentioned that those farthings were actually brass medals.
But you might be right, of course. Just thought I'd mention the other stuff.
Dave |
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