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Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 58
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 8:41 am: |       |
Evenin' All.
As some of you may have noticed, recently Glenn and I had a discussion regarding the type of knife used to murder Stride. There has been a lot of debate over whether the Stride murder weapon had a round end or a sharp one. This has in large part attributed to the belief by some that Stride may not have been a victim of JtR.
I state clearly that I believe there is no evidence that a round ended knife was used and that I also believe Stride was a victim of JtR.
I am however willing to be swayed through rigorous debate. If you have an opinion please raise your voice.
Scotty. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1152
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 5:31 pm: | |
I never raise my voice, but quite honestly I couldn't care less whether the knife had a Kurdish curve, for there was far too much noise associated with the killing of Stride for it to have been a Jack attack.
Someone raised their voice but it wasn't Jack.
He was a very silent boy.
Stare down from a mile up at all the killings associated with Jack and you wouldn't see a thing, apart from that is Stride, then you got a full hour of East-Enders.
Billy did it.
Not Jack. |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 66
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 9:54 pm: | |
AP,
Ok shouting is optional.
Noise? Billy?
Scotty. |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 297
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:06 pm: | |
Everybody is going to get disgusted with me but I'll say it again. Read the eyewitness accounts. No two of them match except Schwartz and Lawende. They saw the same man. |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 67
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:38 pm: | |
So Diana,
Am I to assume that you are saying because of this Stride was a JtR victim?
Scotty. |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:33 am: | |
As a hunter I have witnessed the field-dressing of numerous animals. I use a knife with a drop point blade, one friend uses a clip point blade, while another uses a spear point blade with a gut hook. The fact is, with slashing-type wounds in soft tissue, I would bet that it's pretty near impossible to tell which of us made what cut.
I have also field-dressed a deer one way, and the next year, using the same knife, did it in a completely different way.
For this reason I think that anyone who thinks that Stride was not a Ripper victim and bases their belief on the supposedly different knife wound is on rather shaky ground.
(Stab wounds, marks in bone, and perhaps soft-tissue slashes with a serrated blade would, I believe, be easier to differentiate to a trained MODERN forensics person.)
Regards, Vincent |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 2:23 pm: | |
Sorry Scotty
I should have made myself clearer.
By ‘noise’ I actually mean the associated happenings and circumstances prevailing just before and just after the murder of Stride… even a quick look will show you that Stride - and whoever she was with that night - were very busy people, being noted about their business by many, many different witnesses. Just before the crime there are numerous reports of the couple from various witnesses, including a patrolling police officer; even at the actual time of the murder there are witnesses, some of whom become unwittingly embroiled in the circumstances; and we do have a sizeable aftermath.
Then look at the other crimes attributed to Jack. Almost complete and utter silence. Sure there are a few reports but nothing like the blitz associated with the murder of Stride.
It is for this one reason alone that I have always held the view that Stride could not have been a victim of Jack, but rather the result of a tiresome domestic dispute, which sadly turned to murder, obviously committed by a violent man unable to control his temper. I have no doubt in my mind that should the crime happen today then the police would be looking for a known associate of Stride, such as a disgruntled lover with a string of violent offences, some of them committed against the victim.
What Jack left behind may well have been ’noise’, but in fact he was a very quiet killer. That was his hallmark.
We must be careful not to confuse the fury and speed of the actual attacks with the very silent proceedings leading up to them.
Billy is actually Joe.
Sells old cod at market.
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 298
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 9:17 am: | |
Hi Scotty,
The medical men involved in Stride’s case didn’t come to the conclusion that the knife used in this case was different from the one used in the other ones. In fact, Dr. Philips was of the opinion that the 9 or 10 inch long knife found by Thomas Coram was ‘an improbable instrument as having caused the incision.’ and Dr. Blackwell even said that a ‘round-pointed instrument would severely handicap’ the killer. So, I wouldn’t base Stride’s exclusion as a Ripper victim on the knife used.
As to the eyewitness accounts of Schwartz and Lawende which seem to have matched, I’d say that physical descriptions don’t say all that much, so I certainly wouldn’t base Stride’s inclusion as a Ripper victim on these descriptions alone. Certainly when you consider that the behaviour displayed by Schwartz’ man was so very different from the one seen by Lawende. Schwartz’ being aggressive and conspicuous, Lawende’s being quiet and seemingly at ease. Like AP suggests, Lawende’s man fits the idea of Jack being a very silent killer, Schwartz’ man obviously doesn’t.
Although it’s rather thin, the place and the time don’t feel right to me for Stride to have been a Ripper victim. The Socialist Club was filled with noisy people, they were coming in and out of the club. There were people standing at their doors watching the street, there were people leaving the pubs, hanging around, just coming home. Besides, prostitution doesn’t seem to have been so common for Stride or for Berner Street.
Furthermore, from what little we know, to me it seems that Stride was having a romantic date until shortly before the assault witnessed by Schwartz. I wouldn’t be surprised if proof would someday turn up clearly pointing to Michael Kidney as the assaulter at least.
All the best,
Frank
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Mephisto
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
Hello everyone,
I've field dressed deer with a pointed, wide blade, thick handled Ex-acto knife. I poke two shallow holes, about an inch apart just below the sternum, and insert the ends of a small pair of needle-nose Vise-Grips to clamp onto the hide and pull it upwards as much as possible. I make the initial cut as far down as I can go without cutting the organs below. This technique permits me to slide the fingers of my left hand into the opening near the bottom of the incision, and lift the skin away from the abdominal cavity, and continue the cut to the groin.
While we're on the subject of knife blade configurations: How common were "round tip" knives in London during the late 19th century? How many uses could a round tipped knife blade have? Were they normal household utensils? Could that type of blade tell us something about the people who used it?
Mephisto
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 525
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 10:55 am: | |
Stab wounds, marks in bone, and perhaps soft-tissue slashes with a serrated blade would, I believe, be easier to differentiate to a trained MODERN forensics person
An observation which could support exhumation of Stride. Stride's grave would be the easiest of the canonical victims to exhume from a physical standpoint (I don't know how complex the legalities would be).
Concerning A.P.'s observation regarding the attendant noise. This assumes Stride's rather noisy assailant to be her killer. While a plausible assumption, it is by no means certain. The real Jack might have been lurking in the shadows and have had his attention called to Liz by the dispute with her noisy assailant.
Andy S.
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 11:26 am: | |
Scotty,
Fun Boy Three & Bananarama....
...."Aint what you do its the way that you do it"
As AP states (and Vincent backs up), I dont think the knife is the main arguement against Stride being included in the series.
The M.O. is.....the way that you do it.
But thats a different issue on a different thread.
Monty
Face cream.....now thats just gayness in a jar... |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1854
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 11:29 am: | |
Hello all,
I think Frank, AP and Andy are all quite right in their own way.
If Mr Broad Shoulders was her killer, then the scene that preceded the actual murder is much too noisy and clumsy in order to fit into a Ripper murder. I find it extremely hard to believe that the Ripper would act out that much in the open and shout to people across the street. It is in no way consistent with the circumstances and the conduct surrounding the Ripper murders.
Then, if Mr Broad Shoulders wasn't her killer, that of course opens up to the possibility that it was a Ripper murder after all, but then we have to deal with certain problems regarding time schedules and so on, but Andy's thinking here can't be disregarded nevertheless.
And, as Frank points out, witness descriptions concerning two men with pretty normal male clothing for its time, is a very unsatisfactory and useless basis for a conclusion on this subject.
The shape of the knife was, I believe, just one of several factors to consider in connection the alleged Stride murder and not in itself a valid or important point to prove that she was killed by someone else then the Ripper; that is a misconception.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 74
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 11:48 am: | |
In the last couple of days I read a statement by Dr Bond in which he states that although he was not involved in four of the five autopsies, from his reading of the reports it was clear to him that all five were clearly murdered by the same hand.
I hadn't read that statement before and I just wonder what everyone makes of it.
The report was in "The Mammoth book of Jack The Ripper" on pages 86 - 88.
Scotty. |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 75
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 11:54 am: | |
PS All,
Point taken on the MO. I have never read it that way as I have always doubted that JtR was a client. As I explained on another thread I think it quite possible that JtR was actually lying in wait for suitable victims. I think this fits nicely with most of the victims except possibly MJK. I think that it would have fed his mania to silently observe these unfortunates plying their trade. Anyway, my point being I think it is possible that the noise prior to the Stride murder could be just that.
Just thinking out loud here really though.
Scotty. |
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