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  | Archive through May 21, 2005 | Natalie Severn | 50 | 1 | 5-21-05 7:00 pm |
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3452
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 7:19 pm: | 
|
Well, actually, Natalie, one doesn't necessarily exclude the other.
Who knows? After all, I for my part can't rule out the possibility that the Ripper might have been some sort of obsessive fanatical freak, who was delusional or wanted to "clean the Streets" for example.
But the mutilations are usually a sign of some sort of sexual gratification (from what we know so far about that type of killings). But we will never know, I guess.
As I said, one doesn't necessarily exclude the other; for all we know, a sexual serial killer might also be fanatical and intense -- and mad. Perhaps.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on May 21, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1956
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:33 am: |
|
Exactly so Glenn-and really I think thats as near as can be got currently although your work in Crime History together with more and more research into historical crimes such as AP is retrieving at present may offer further a deeper insight into what he was about eventually.
Natalie |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 130
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 9:23 am: |
|
Hi all,
I don't think we should fall into the clag of overemphasizing sex as the chief motivating factor in these crimes. If that was the case, he would have started when he was about twelve-years-old. I tend to think that a vendetta against immorality makes more sense.
Stan |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3453
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 9:28 am: |
|
Stan,
What makes a "vendetta" less plausible (although not entirely impossible) are the excessive bizarre mutilations. If he only wanted to clean the street or hated prostitutes, it would be enough just to kill them.
Mutilations of this kind, are in general a sign of some sort of additional psychological gratification besides anger (important enough to make him linger on the crime scene and make him take the risk of getting caught), and sexual fantasies is usually the most common one. Still, as with all generalisations, we have to be careful while drawing conclusions.
But I can't really see any other reason for them.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on May 22, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 131
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 9:46 am: |
|
Hi Glenn,
I wasn't asserting that it wasn't a factor just not the chief factor. If it was the paramount motivation, then why not do it to any woman, not just prostitutes?
Regards,
Stan |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3454
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:04 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
Maybe because prostitutes simply are easy target in a vulnerable situation, making it easy for the killer (which is pretty much why they end up like victims of sexual serial killers in the first place)?
Besides, quite a few criminal weirdos have fantasies about prostitutes especially, as they tend to become symbols of female sexuality for some men.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on May 22, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1958
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
|
Thanks for that clarification Glenn.
So basically he could have been both imagining he was performing something helpful to a Higher Power in response to the delusional "voices"he MAY have been hearing commanding him to kill while at one and the same time savouring the perverted ,sexual satisfaction he was getting from doing it?
Are there histories of such murderers in Swedish records?
Here,at the moment there is a killer in Broadmoor
serving life for killing and mutilating in a very similar way and even with a changed MO[from knifing women in the buttocks a bit like Thomas Cutbush,to raping them with violence,to--- and this next one hasnt as yet been proven to have been him conclusively, though it looks very likely because of a DNA match] a stabbing much like the Martha Tabram stabbing,and to later a killing and mutilation of a young mother -and a killing of her child-[proven].These last two women seem to have been stalked.
Although he is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic there is no evidence that he was doing these murders and violent acts in response to delusional voices-though he may have been.Its on the "New Suspect Wimbledon Common" Thread-Shades of Whitechapel.It would be great to find out exactly what moved JtR to murder/mutilate.
Natalie
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 132
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
|
Hi Glenn,
That's possible but in that squalid place I would have thought there would have been many other targets of opportunity.
Regarding Natalie's question, how about the "good doctors" Haerm and Thomas. Also, you had the socalled and unsolved train push off murders of 1948.
Regards,
Stan |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3455
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
|
Hi Natalie,
"So basically he could have been both imagining he was performing something helpful to a Higher Power in response to the delusional "voices"he MAY have been hearing commanding him to kill while at one and the same time savouring the perverted ,sexual satisfaction he was getting from doing it?"
Well, I guess nothing can be ruled out, and the human mind is a rather complicated thing, but such an extreme combination would of course make him quite a complex character. I would assume it might be one or the other, to be honest.
For a sexual serial killer it is mostly all about living out fantasies, while a delusional killer is driven by voices or hallucinations or a twisted world perception. Then, we have those driven by rage and revenge, and those could of course be combined with any of the other two.
No, I haven't heard of such a complex killer in Sweden, although we've had our share of both sexual serial killers and delusional paranoid scizofrenic killers. The latter is of course always a matter of court debate.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3456
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
"That's possible but in that squalid place I would have thought there would have been many other targets of opportunity."
No, I can't agree with that.
Prostitutes are in an exceptional situation, thanks to their working conditions. For a killer it is pretty convenient with a category of victims, who usually on their own initiative approaches strangers, takes them to secluded places and are in a position where they have to take extreme risks.
Furthermore, prostitutes seldom have any personal connections, which makes them harder to identify and therefore the crime harder to detect and investigate. In many ways today (and especially in 1888), prostitutes were considered disposals and not important people, that shouldn't be seen or heard about.
Prostitutes have always been the most convenient victims for a killer, and I for my part believe that that was the only reason for why they were chosen, but it is of course also possible that the killer's fantasies might have involved prostitutes especially.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on May 22, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 133
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,
That area was full of lonely women and lonely women frequently go off with men they don't know well. For that reason, I don't see why Jack wouldn't have used them as a pool if his motives were purely sexual.
Also, if the attacks were principally sexual, then why weren't the breasts a target? Even in the questionable assault of Kelley, they were just part of the rest of the front of the body he took off.
I don't doubt that he got a charge out of the mutilations but I think it was more because he wanted to humiliate the victims; a sort of retribution in his own mind.
Regards,
Stan |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3460
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I must say, I have not the slightest idea what you're talking about. "That area was full of lonely women and lonely women frequently go off with men they don't know well." Sounds like prostitutes to me.
I have never heard of that post-mortem mutilations might be done to humiliate the victims.
For shock value, possibly, but that's another thing.
By the way, why do you asses that the breasts necessarily must be targeted in a sexually motivated murder? There exists a lot of such cases where quite different areas of the female sexual attributed have been targeted:
some have had their breasts attacked,
some just the womb area,
some the face,
some both the breasts and the abdominal areas, some all of it etc.
Every killer is a different person with different needs, you can't square them into pattern behaviours like that.
As for the Ripper victims, they were attacked in probably the most sexually charged area: namely the lower abdominal area and two of them had the wombs taken. So I certainly think there are signs of sexually motivation. We can argue about this til doomsday, though, and none of us can get into the killer's mind. Some will agree with me, and some won't. I don't care.
I can't rule out some kind of retribution, but I don't see any evident signs of it.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 134
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,
In fact, most lonely women who go off with men aren't prostitutes.
I didn't say there was no sexual element but in human society breasts are associated with sex by almost every male. Certainly more so than kidneys or thigh muscles.
So I guess we're at an impasse and that's ok.
Regards,
Stan
|
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3462
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 7:42 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
"In fact, most lonely women who go off with men aren't prostitutes."
I'd say, if a lonely woman went off with male strangers at night in London's East End in 1888, there is a high chance she would be a prostitute.
The Ripper most probably preyed for those women, since they usually approached their customers and made it easy for him. Why on earth he would choose others when those were available goes beyond me.
"I didn't say there was no sexual element but in human society breasts are associated with sex by almost every male. Certainly more so than kidneys or thigh muscles."
I never mentioned kidneys or thigh muscles. I said that two of the victims had their wombs taken out, and as you know, wombs are the female reproductions organs. All the victims were cut up in that specific area.
Eddowes lost not only the kidney, but also the womb.
As for sexual serial killers, they usually take whatever throphees they can get anyway.
Then again, I can't rule out that the killer might have been a delusional freak either, and if that's the case, it is practically impossible to know what went into his head.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Phil Hill
Police Constable
Username: Phil
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:09 am: |
|
This is not my area of expertise or usual interest at all, but a thought occurred to me as I read through the exchanges above.
is it conceivable that Jack had - or developed as the killings progressed - an obsessional interest in what is INSIDE the female body.
An uneducated man (even an educated one) in Victorian times would probably have had a pretty hazy idea of what was inside a body. the educational system would not have explored such a subject given Victorian prudery especially about the body - and i suspect schoolbooks, and wall-charts etc very much avoided cutaways of the human body and innards.
Doctors would have seen disections I assume, and be an exception, A soldier might have seen comrades blown apart, but for the rest??
So could what his rippings revealed a hint of in the case of Nichols have intrigued him and led to the "progression" many see in the killings?
I don't see this as inconsistent with a vaginal fixation, or sexually motivated killings - just a new angle that might have arisen in the killer's disturbed mind.
It would be like a child given a glimpse of the inside of a mechanical toy and then becoming fascinated by engineering or mechanical things to the point that they become the main interest in his life perhaps becoming a career. Now see that in a more perverted mind...
But I am not a criminologist, nor a psychologist. Can anyone help me out here - I don't think I have ever seen a curiousity about or an obsession with internal organs mentioned before |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1768
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:42 am: |
|
Hi Phil,
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall such a discussion here at some point. In Victorian times, a budding artist might learn quite a bit about the way a woman's body works from life classes. I imagine most men at that time would have been curious to know more than they could have picked up at school (either in class or behind the bike sheds).
An obsessive Jacky Boy could have experimented on dogs or cats, killing then cutting them open to see how they are made, before moving on to humans.
Love,
Caz
X
PS With respect to the topic, I also imagine that if Jack read the newspapers he would have thought long and hard about the attack on Emma Smith. When did the details first appear?
(Message edited by caz on May 23, 2005) |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3463
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:49 am: |
|
Phil,
Actually, that is not impossible at all.
Certainly not an option that can be ruled out, as I see it. Interesting suggestion.
Caz,
Good and interesting points.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on May 23, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 242
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:28 am: |
|
I think I may have misspoken earlier when I said suggested that the motivation was "a vague, undefined sense of anger". I did not mean to suggest that there was not a sexual motivation present, but rather that the motivation was, in the mind of the killer, a combination of generally violent fantasies and urges, some of which were sexually related, and others which were just related to violence, anger, etc... Sorry, I feel I did not express that too clearly.
Also, I think it is quite possible that the SK's first attempts at killing, or acting out the fantasies of killing, will be opportunistic in nature... ie, unplanned attacks. Peter Vronsky notes this in his book, that in early attacks often the sk does not even bring a weapon along with him. The subject of the sk's "first attack" is discussed in some depth in his book... the first attack or murder is in most cases described as being the most difficult, both in terms of technique, and also in terms of its emotional and psychological effect on the killer.
I think it is in consideration of these types of things that I generally believe in the concept of an evolution, especially in the earlier attacks and murders.
Here is a quote from Ted Bundy, who described himself as having a PHD in serial murder (note, in interviews, Bundy speaks of his own actions in the third person):
"... what's happening is that we're building up the condition ... and what may have been a predisposition for violence becomes a disposition. And as the condition develops and its purposes or its characteristics become more well defined, it begins to demand more time of the individual ... There's a certain amount of tension, uh, struggle, between the normal personality and this, this, uh, psychopathological, uh, entity "
" ... a point would be reached where we'd had all of this, this reservoir of tension building. Building and building. Finally, inevitably, this force -- this entity -- would make a breakthrough ... Maybe not a major breakthrough, but a significant breakthrough would be achieved -- where the tension would be too great and the demands and expectations of this entity would reach a point where they just could not be controlled. And where the consequences would really be seen for the first time."
" ... On one particular evening, when he had been drinking a great deal ... and he was passing a bar, he saw a woman leaving the bar and walk up a fairly dark side street. And we'd say that for no ... the urge to do something to that person seized him -- in a way he'd never been affected before ... And it seized him strongly. And to the point where, uh, without giving a great deal of thought, he searched around for some instrumentality to uh, uh, attack this woman with. He found a piece of a two-by-four in a lot somewhere and proceeded to follow and track this girl ... and he reached the point where he was, uh, almost driven to do something -- there was really no control at this point ... the sort of revelation of that experience and the frenzied desire that seized him, uh, really seemed to usher in a new dimension to the, that part of himself that was obsessed with ... violence and women and sexual activity -- a composite kind of thing. Not terribly well defined, but more well defined as time went on."
Full interview Here: http://roberthouse.com/bundy.html
Rob
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 136
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:47 am: |
|
Hello all,
I've found an account that refers to the weapon used to inflict the wound(s) on Emma as a "sharp spike". To me, this sounds more consistent with the injuries that were caused. I wonder how anyone could conclude that a "blunt instrument" could cause such trauma.
Best regards,
Stan |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 114
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:52 am: |
|
Stan,
I have only read of the blunt instrument as stated in the inquest. Her peritoneum had been torn, and the resulting peritonitis is what killed her.
It is never stated as to what exactly the instrument was. And yes, a blunt instrument would work quite well to inflict the wound that killed her.
Cheers, 
Carolyn
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 137
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:06 am: |
|
Hi Carolyn,
I guess the problem is the vague definition of "blunt instrument". To penetrate basically five layers of tissue all the way into the bowel it doesn't sound too blunt to me. I can see two layers being torn but not more than that. Rumbelow's account says the breach was "broken" not torn. I have seen a chisel described as a blunt instrument when used as a weapon so I should think that cound be a possibility.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
|
Stan,
Where did you find the account that you mention?
Rob |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 138
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
|
Hi Rob,
It's in the "The Book of Lists" (1977) and they do put it in quotes like they got it from somewhere else. I read through all their accounts of the rest of the Ripper murders and they are accurate.
Regards,
Stan |
Patrick Strautman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:12 am: |
|
Stan,
Point well taken on the "blunt" tip... a newbie mistake repeating something I read in another post instead of looking at M.E. report.
Glenn,
Thank you for your kind words... and I have printed out a registration form... but I do have to give my girlfriend's influence credit for shaping my views on sociopaths/serial killers vs. person of mental defect or disease. One of those views being a serial killer has no external motives or rage (though they may say they had a domineering mother growing up e.g.) JtR may have VD, and he very well maybe impotent, but it is not misogyny or anger against prostitutes of East End that drives him.
Brenda,
The speed is accurate to be sure... but how long does take an "average" man with a "normal" sexual appetite to climax from arousal? Truthfully, not that long. Couple this with an intensity of the experience... even quicker. Plus, a serial killer most likely has trophies to relive the experience. Perhaps defining the manifestations of one's libido is more accurate than plainly saying "sexual arousal" (though most FBI profilers do).
As far as keeping a open mind, I do. I believe adding possible victims to the canonical five may however blur our picture of who JtR is. And this may be an unpopular belief, but without the aid of forensic testing I believe all JtR letters should be discounted. Even if JtR did write any of them, it is a glorified representation of the infamous "Jack The Ripper" and not the everyday man he probably is... though one could argue that "is" insight into the mind of JtR.
Man alive, I'm making myself sick by demystifying JtR... and that is what got me so interested in JtR in the first place.
My girlfriend brought up a great point last night... do we really believe Ridgeway was "ridding the streets" of undesirable people as he says... or did he choose who he though to be undesirable so he could continue to kill for as long as could? |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 139
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Hi all,
Does anyone know any more about the man in dark clothing and wearing a white scarf who was the last person seen with Emma before her attack? Also, who was the witness who saw them?
Regards,
Stan |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:20 pm: |
|
Stan,
The witness that saw him was Margaret Hayes. She stated at the inquest that she saw them together. She was on her way home after being attacked herself. She only looked at the man to see if he was one of her attackers, he wasn't, and she didn't know if she would recognize him again.
I see what you mean about the blunt instrument, but given enough force it could have done the damage. IMHO
Cheers,
Carolyn |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 141
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
|
Hi Carolyn,
Thanks. Hames was one of the possibilities I wondered about but accounts I had just said "a woman". I believe she was the one also thought to be innocently responsible for the "Fairy Fay" story.
Regards,
Stan |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:38 pm: |
|
Stan,
Yes, you are correct. For more info see "The Importance of Fairy Fay, and Her Link to Emma Smith." A dissertation here on the boards.
Cheers,
Carolyn |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:30 am: |
|
Hi Glen
First of all, I thought you'd gave up your truncheon?
Not to mention yer hand-cuffs
But I must agree with you, we have no reason to doubt Emma Smith when she says she was attacked by a gang of thugs. I think The poor woman only eventually went for help because she realised she was so badly hurt. Otherwise I think she would of just shrugged off the attack. She had to live among these animals, and to report them to the police could have led to a repeat attack.
Regards Cludgy |
Steve Turner
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 1:25 pm: |
|
To quote Emma her self, Some men had attacked her
she even shows Mary Russell where the attack took place, whilst on the way to the London Hospital.
In what sence she could have been a ripper victim
I cant fathom.Emma was in all probability a victim
of a "High rip gang" like the Old Nichols gang.
As regards the psychology of the ripper, we know
enough now to state with reasonable certainty,
that the killings would have been fantasised about
many times before the actual deeds took place.In
all likelihood the poor women served as a substitute,for a powerful female figure in his life. this hatred would have been internalised,
only to emerge at times of high stress. I also
feel that the killing of Martha Tabram bears all
the hallmarks of a, Immature first kill. IMHO of
course. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3481
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
|
Hi Cludgy,
I have, although I did emphasize that I would pop in now and then on occasion.
And I agree on your views -- as well as Steve Turner's -- regarding Emma Smith.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
|
Hi Glen
I look forward to seeing some of your occasional posts then.
Regards Cludgy |
Neil K. MacMillan
Inspector
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 153
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
|
I think (Please note this is opinion and not stated as fact) Blunt instrument could be damned near anything. It could havce been a pipe or harking back to Vlad tepes a legnth of wood. Anyone who has had a splinter will see what I'm saying. A steering wheel is a blunt object or rather the steering shaft is and yet it could make that kind of damage easily. A stick could given sufficient force was used to force it up the passage. Any one who has read up on the Virginia Rappe murder will realize that (The object there was an unbroken champagne bottle) Just an opinion but hopefully one to make everyone think. Neil |
Guy de la Roche Dacqoz
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
|
Mr Turner, not to be tedious but you repeat quite verbatim the classical version of the ripperological roundabout for the case of Emma Smith.
Yes, she was attacked by a gang.
That's all.
That's correct.
A fact.
From this you infer that she was not a "Ripper's" victim.
Fine.
An opinion.
An opinion about the "Ripper's" nature.
How can you then go on speculating about the "Ripper's" psychology ?
This is speculation (psychology) upon speculation (nature).
It seems to me that Alice in Wonderland might have more reality than that.
Just another opinion, of course.
Guillaume de la Roche Dacqoz. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2898
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Following on from Stan's post I have been trying to track down this reference to a 'spike' or 'spiked instrument', and think I have finally found it.
Here we go:
'A long 'pike' like instrument had been run through the body, the medical authority stated.'
The report mentions the throat being cut, and 'abdomen mutilated with disgusting wounds.'
I'm assuming that 'disgusting' here is a reference to Smith's privates.
The report can be found in 'Leather Apron' by Sam Hudson, published 1888 (?) in Philadelphia. |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 642
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 1:50 pm: |
|
Hi AP,
Thanks. Perhaps that's where The Book of Lists got it or from a second hand source who got it from the Hudson report. I wonder if Hudson had good information or colored it a bit.
Stan |
|
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